RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[Homer38]

While Scottie Pippen did make the All-NBA first team but not until he was 28 rather than at the age of 21 or 25.

Pippen was a all nba player and all nba defense for most of the 1990s...Top 5-10 player easy in this decade with or without Jordan

Wade was top 5 mvp voting twice without James and easily top 5-10 player during his prime years

Davis was top 5 mvp voting twice without James and easily top 5-10 player during his peak years including this year

And pippen make the first all nba in 1994 and 1995 with only 17 games of jordan...what is your point?

[Homer38]

While Scottie Pippen did make the All-NBA first team but not until he was 28 rather than at the age of 21 or 25.

Pippen was a all nba player and all nba defense for most of the 1990s...Top 5-10 player easy in this decade with or without Jordan

He was an excellent player, but only had one first all defensive team and one second all defensive team selection after Jordan retired, and none of the accolades you mention before the age of 25.

Why you talk about the age?

And pippen make way more all nba team than that after the retirement of jordan in 1993 so you are wrong

[MavsDirk41]

This is Just the gap between top 5 vs top 10 is big,this is the same thing about top 10 and top 20.This is like the gap between Pippen and Rodman.Both great player but still a gap..

And Kyrie,love and bosh had only 1 winning season in 16 season combined

Who was Irving’s best teammate(s) before playing with James and Bosh?

Who was Loves best teammate(s) before playing with James and Irving?

Who was Bosh’s best teammate(s) before playing with Wade and James?

Did any of them underachieve? If so, what year(s)?

I agree it was not good but if you look at the all nba team,they make 3 all nba team combined in 16 season,so for most of the time they were not top 15 players... still very good of course but super star no

So your not gonna answer my question?

[MavsDirk41]

Pippen was a all nba player and all nba defense for most of the 1990s...Top 5-10 player easy in this decade with or without Jordan

Wade was top 5 mvp voting twice without James and easily top 5-10 player during his prime years

Davis was top 5 mvp voting twice without James and easily top 5-10 player during his peak years including this year

And pippen make the first all nba in 1994 and 1995 with only 17 games of jordan...what is your point?

You were talking up Pippen? Can i not talk up Wade and Davis?

[Homer38]

Who was Irving’s best teammate(s) before playing with James and Bosh?

Who was Loves best teammate(s) before playing with James and Irving?

Who was Bosh’s best teammate(s) before playing with Wade and James?

Did any of them underachieve? If so, what year(s)?

I agree it was not good but if you look at the all nba team,they make 3 all nba team combined in 16 season,so for most of the time they were not top 15 players... still very good of course but super star no

So your not gonna answer my question?

I said it was not good...this is my answer

[Homer38]

Wade was top 5 mvp voting twice without James and easily top 5-10 player during his prime years

Davis was top 5 mvp voting twice without James and easily top 5-10 player during his peak years including this year

And pippen make the first all nba in 1994 and 1995 with only 17 games of jordan...what is your point?

You were talking up Pippen? Can i not talk up Wade and Davis?

Never said they were not great...

[michaelm]

I was referring to accolades received after Jordan’s final retirement from the Bulls, either with the Bulls or elsewhere.

And my point was in support of another’s point which was that Pippen didn’t immediately become elite, while apparently Kytie and Bosh were no good because they didn’t have the accolades Pippen later got at an age younger than him.

This is a stupid argument anyway, both LeBron and Jordan needed elite help and got it, and there is no need to demean any team mates of either player. The Jordan had more help/LeBron didn’t have enough help argument is mainly from you guys however, and if you want to play that game LeBron joined up with two definite top 5 players to Jordan’s one, and I do see a difference between a player who became an elite player next to Jordan and players who were already elite with no involvement from LeBron, not that this is something over which I would die on a hill.

[Homer38]

He was an excellent player, but only had one first all defensive team and one second all defensive team selection after Jordan retired, and none of the accolades you mention before the age of 25.

Why you talk about the age?

And pippen make way more all nba team than that after the retirement of jordan in 1993 so you are wrong[/quot
After Jordan’s final retirement from the Bulls either there or elsewhere.

And my point was in support of another’s point and was that Pippen didn’t immediately become elite, while apparently Wade and Bosh were no good because they didn’t get the accolades Pippen later got at an age younger than him,

This is a stupid argument anyway, both LeBron and Jordan needed help and got it, and there is no need to demean any team mates of either player. The Jordan had more help/LeBron didn’t have enough help argument is mainly from you guys however, and if you want to play that game LeBron joined up with two definite top 5 players to Jordan’s one, and I do see a difference between a player who became an elite player next to Jordan and players who were already elite with no involvement from LeBron, not that this is something over which I would die on a hill.

I don't know where to start...pippen was first team all nba without jordan vs only 1 with jordan...wade,kyrie,ad,etc were all great when they were healthy with james...the biggest difference,the bulls did not face a team like the spurs or warriors in the finals and the east was not that good in the 1990s too

[michaelm]

Why you talk about the age?

And pippen make way more all nba team than that after the retirement of jordan in 1993 so you are wrong[/quot
After Jordan’s final retirement from the Bulls either there or elsewhere.

And my point was in support of another’s point and was that Pippen didn’t immediately become elite, while apparently Wade and Bosh were no good because they didn’t get the accolades Pippen later got at an age younger than him,

This is a stupid argument anyway, both LeBron and Jordan needed help and got it, and there is no need to demean any team mates of either player. The Jordan had more help/LeBron didn’t have enough help argument is mainly from you guys however, and if you want to play that game LeBron joined up with two definite top 5 players to Jordan’s one, and I do see a difference between a player who became an elite player next to Jordan and players who were already elite with no involvement from LeBron, not that this is something over which I would die on a hill.

I don't know where to start...pippen was first team all nba without jordan vs only 1 with jordan...wade,kyrie,ad,etc were all great when they were healthy with james...the biggest difference,the bulls did not face a team like the spurs or warriors in the finals and the east was not that good in the 1990s too

You could perhaps start with him being born in September 1965, being drafted and first playing for the Bulls in 1987, getting his first all NBA accolade, second team all defense in 1991 when he was 25 and in his 4th season as I said, and having 2 all NBA accolades after 1998 as I also said, both all defensive, one first team and one second team. in 1999 and 2000. Sure he was a great player and crucial to the success of the Jordan Bulls, but he was not a fully formed elite player as soon as he put on a uniform in 1987.

Another poster on your side of the debate was questioning the quality of Irving and Bosh because they had “only” been All- Stars and had never been selected to all NBA teams when they joined up with LeBron, eliciting a reply that they hadn’t had much time to reach all NBA team status given they were aged 21 and 25 at the respective times.

[Rust_Cohle]

Why you talk about the age?

And pippen make way more all nba team than that after the retirement of jordan in 1993 so you are wrong[/quot
After Jordan’s final retirement from the Bulls either there or elsewhere.

And my point was in support of another’s point and was that Pippen didn’t immediately become elite, while apparently Wade and Bosh were no good because they didn’t get the accolades Pippen later got at an age younger than him,

This is a stupid argument anyway, both LeBron and Jordan needed help and got it, and there is no need to demean any team mates of either player. The Jordan had more help/LeBron didn’t have enough help argument is mainly from you guys however, and if you want to play that game LeBron joined up with two definite top 5 players to Jordan’s one, and I do see a difference between a player who became an elite player next to Jordan and players who were already elite with no involvement from LeBron, not that this is something over which I would die on a hill.

I don't know where to start...pippen was first team all nba without jordan vs only 1 with jordan...wade,kyrie,ad,etc were all great when they were healthy with james...the biggest difference,the bulls did not face a team like the spurs or warriors in the finals and the east was not that good in the 1990s too

The east was better in the 90’s and seen as the better conference for most of that decade especially in comparison to the leastern conference as it was nicknamed when LeBron was there.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Warriors often had a harder time with other western teams than they did with the Cavs.

[SKR]

[Deleted by moderation.]

[Homer38]

Why you talk about the age?

And pippen make way more all nba team than that after the retirement of jordan in 1993 so you are wrong[/quot
After Jordan’s final retirement from the Bulls either there or elsewhere.

And my point was in support of another’s point and was that Pippen didn’t immediately become elite, while apparently Wade and Bosh were no good because they didn’t get the accolades Pippen later got at an age younger than him,

This is a stupid argument anyway, both LeBron and Jordan needed help and got it, and there is no need to demean any team mates of either player. The Jordan had more help/LeBron didn’t have enough help argument is mainly from you guys however, and if you want to play that game LeBron joined up with two definite top 5 players to Jordan’s one, and I do see a difference between a player who became an elite player next to Jordan and players who were already elite with no involvement from LeBron, not that this is something over which I would die on a hill.

I don't know where to start...pippen was first team all nba without jordan vs only 1 with jordan...wade,kyrie,ad,etc were all great when they were healthy with james...the biggest difference,the bulls did not face a team like the spurs or warriors in the finals and the east was not that good in the 1990s too

The east was better in the 90’s and seen as the better conference for most of that decade especially in comparison to the leastern conference as it was nicknamed when LeBron was there.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Warriors often had a harder time with other western teams than they did with the Cavs.

The knicks in the 1990s had a great defense but a weak offense,like bottom 5-10.And it was the best team that Jordan face in the east in the 1991-1998 period(outside of maybe Orlando but the magic were depleted in the 1996 series)....Don't forget,the bulls almost beat the knicks in 1994 without Jordan.If Pippen would not been out for 10 games in that season,the homecourt advantage would been likely to the Bulls and we know the home team won every games in that series

Also for the warriors,outside of 2018,this is not true

[Rust_Cohle]

I don't know where to start...pippen was first team all nba without jordan vs only 1 with jordan...wade,kyrie,ad,etc were all great when they were healthy with james...the biggest difference,the bulls did not face a team like the spurs or warriors in the finals and the east was not that good in the 1990s too

The east was better in the 90’s and seen as the better conference for most of that decade especially in comparison to the leastern conference as it was nicknamed when LeBron was there.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Warriors often had a harder time with other western teams than they did with the Cavs.

The knicks in the 1990s had a great defense but a weak offense,like bottom 5-10.And it was the best team that Jordan face in the east in the 1991-1998 period(outside of maybe Orlando but the magic were depleted in the 1996 series)....Don't forget,the bulls almost beat the knicks in 1994 without Jordan.If Pippen would not been out for 10 games in that season,the homecourt advantage would been likely to the Bulls and we know the home team won every games in that series

Also for the warriors,outside of 2018,this is not true

LeBron faced just one all nba player the same season in the playoffs and that was an injured Derek rose. I’m not talking about finals, I’m talking about conferences where LeBron was in a worse conference than MJ was.

Knicks went 7 games in the finals in 1994, Pippen refused to take the last shot he wasn’t really a leader. In 1995 bulls were just 34-31 until Jordan returned.

As for the Knicks the 92-93 team won 60 games, up 2-0 on the Bulls in the ECF, had the 2nd best net rating of any Knicks team of the decade (behind only 93-94). Warriors had a harder time against other western teams than they did the cavs

And again, actually read this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Jordan and its not close.

1st round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 42/ 0.5

Jordan: 48/ 2.57

2nd round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 52/ 3.15

Jordan: 52/ 3.95

CF opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 54/ 3.80

Jordan: 59/ 5.93

Jordans east:

'85 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'86 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'87 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'88 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

'89 - 1 60 win team, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 40 wins

'90 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 40 wins, 3 of those 4 teams below 30

'91 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'92 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 3 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'93 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'95 - 0 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'96 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 1 win team, 3 teams below 30 wins

'97 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'98 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

- Between '85-'98 there were 11 60 win teams, 39 50 win teams, 30 teams below 30 wins in the east.

Lebrons east:

'05 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 below 30 wins Teams

'06 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'07 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'08 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'09 - 2 60 win teams (Cavs), 1 50 win team, 1 teams below 30 wins

'10 - 1 60 win team (Cavs), 3 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'11 - 1 60 win team, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'12 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'13 - 1 60 win team (Heat), 1 50 win team, 5 teams below 30 wins

'14 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'15 - 1 60 win team, 2 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'16 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'17 - 0 60 win teams, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'18 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

- Between '05-'18 there were 9 60 win teams, 32 50 win teams, 49 Teams below 30 wins in the east.

Honorable mention: below 20 win teams:

- Jordan: 7

- Lebron: 12

On average:

Jordan: 0.85 60 win teams, 3.0 50 win teams, 2.3 teams below 30 wins

Lebron: 0.64 60 win teams, 2.3 50 win teams, 3.5 teams below 30 wins

[Homer38]

The east was better in the 90’s and seen as the better conference for most of that decade especially in comparison to the leastern conference as it was nicknamed when LeBron was there.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Warriors often had a harder time with other western teams than they did with the Cavs.

The knicks in the 1990s had a great defense but a weak offense,like bottom 5-10.And it was the best team that Jordan face in the east in the 1991-1998 period(outside of maybe Orlando but the magic were depleted in the 1996 series)....Don't forget,the bulls almost beat the knicks in 1994 without Jordan.If Pippen would not been out for 10 games in that season,the homecourt advantage would been likely to the Bulls and we know the home team won every games in that series

Also for the warriors,outside of 2018,this is not true

LeBron faced just one all nba player the same season in the playoffs and that was an injured Derek rose. I’m not talking about finals, I’m talking about conferences where LeBron was in a worse conference than MJ was.

Knicks went 7 games in the finals in 1994, Pippen refused to take the last shot he wasn’t really a leader. In 1995 bulls were just 34-31 until Jordan returned.

As for the Knicks the 92-93 team won 60 games, up 2-0 on the Bulls in the ECF, had the 2nd best net rating of any Knicks team of the decade (behind only 93-94). Warriors had a harder time against other western teams than they did the cavs

And again, actually read this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Jordan and its not close.

1st round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 42/ 0.5

Jordan: 48/ 2.57

2nd round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 52/ 3.15

Jordan: 52/ 3.95

CF opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 54/ 3.80

Jordan: 59/ 5.93

Jordans east:

'85 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'86 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'87 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'88 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

'89 - 1 60 win team, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 40 wins

'90 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 40 wins, 3 of those 4 teams below 30

'91 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'92 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 3 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'93 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'95 - 0 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'96 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 1 win team, 3 teams below 30 wins

'97 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'98 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

- Between '85-'98 there were 11 60 win teams, 39 50 win teams, 30 teams below 30 wins in the east.

Lebrons east:

'05 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 below 30 wins Teams

'06 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'07 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'08 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'09 - 2 60 win teams (Cavs), 1 50 win team, 1 teams below 30 wins

'10 - 1 60 win team (Cavs), 3 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'11 - 1 60 win team, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'12 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'13 - 1 60 win team (Heat), 1 50 win team, 5 teams below 30 wins

'14 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'15 - 1 60 win team, 2 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'16 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'17 - 0 60 win teams, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'18 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

- Between '05-'18 there were 9 60 win teams, 32 50 win teams, 49 Teams below 30 wins in the east.

Honorable mention: below 20 win teams:

- Jordan: 7

- Lebron: 12

On average:

Jordan: 0.85 60 win teams, 3.0 50 win teams, 2.3 teams below 30 wins

Lebron: 0.64 60 win teams, 2.3 50 win teams, 3.5 teams below 30 wins

For your first point, it wasn't just Pippen the bulls had, they were a very deep team, say what you want but the bulls were a 55 wins team with a way below average replacement at the SG position in 1994 and they almost won against the knicks who almost won the title in the same year... Also in 1993, as you say, the knicks were up 2-0 vs Chicago but the bulls won game 3 by 20 points even though Jordan was 3-18 in that game.... The margin of error was big

For your second point, the SRS and winning average is very misleading for 2 reasons

First, the bulls played against the first seed in the first round multiple times (both time vs celtics) because the bulls were the 8th seed with a losing record (image to make the playoffs at 30-52), so it raises the average big time and the other reason that's the SRS and record were inflated for all teams especially in the late 1990s because the NBA had so many awesome teams, like another NBA had like 6-7 teams with 60 or more losses so that's a big reason why we saw so many teams with great records since they had so many easy wins during the regular season....If you think teams tank too much now, it even worse in the 1990s, you just have to look at the standing from 1996 to 1998, it was brutal,so many awful team.

So of course the opponents will have a better record with that, which also raises the average of records and SRS....It was a good try by you but context matter

The east were overrated in the 1990s and it was weak.True that the 2010s east were weak too but they did not face a team like the lakers in the Kareem and Magic era at their best in the 1990s in the finals since Magic was gone after 1991....No the 1991 lakers were not the same powerhouse they were in the 1980s

[bledredwine]

The east was better in the 90’s and seen as the better conference for most of that decade especially in comparison to the leastern conference as it was nicknamed when LeBron was there.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Warriors often had a harder time with other western teams than they did with the Cavs.

The knicks in the 1990s had a great defense but a weak offense,like bottom 5-10.And it was the best team that Jordan face in the east in the 1991-1998 period(outside of maybe Orlando but the magic were depleted in the 1996 series)....Don't forget,the bulls almost beat the knicks in 1994 without Jordan.If Pippen would not been out for 10 games in that season,the homecourt advantage would been likely to the Bulls and we know the home team won every games in that series

Also for the warriors,outside of 2018,this is not true

LeBron faced just one all nba player the same season in the playoffs and that was an injured Derek rose. I’m not talking about finals, I’m talking about conferences where LeBron was in a worse conference than MJ was.

Knicks went 7 games in the finals in 1994, Pippen refused to take the last shot he wasn’t really a leader. In 1995 bulls were just 34-31 until Jordan returned.

As for the Knicks the 92-93 team won 60 games, up 2-0 on the Bulls in the ECF, had the 2nd best net rating of any Knicks team of the decade (behind only 93-94). Warriors had a harder time against other western teams than they did the cavs

And again, actually read this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Jordan and its not close.

1st round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 42/ 0.5

Jordan: 48/ 2.57

2nd round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 52/ 3.15

Jordan: 52/ 3.95

CF opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 54/ 3.80

Jordan: 59/ 5.93

Jordans east:

'85 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'86 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'87 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'88 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

'89 - 1 60 win team, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 40 wins

'90 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 40 wins, 3 of those 4 teams below 30

'91 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'92 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 3 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'93 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'95 - 0 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'96 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 1 win team, 3 teams below 30 wins

'97 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'98 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

- Between '85-'98 there were 11 60 win teams, 39 50 win teams, 30 teams below 30 wins in the east.

Lebrons east:

'05 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 below 30 wins Teams

'06 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'07 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'08 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'09 - 2 60 win teams (Cavs), 1 50 win team, 1 teams below 30 wins

'10 - 1 60 win team (Cavs), 3 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'11 - 1 60 win team, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'12 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'13 - 1 60 win team (Heat), 1 50 win team, 5 teams below 30 wins

'14 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'15 - 1 60 win team, 2 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'16 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'17 - 0 60 win teams, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'18 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

- Between '05-'18 there were 9 60 win teams, 32 50 win teams, 49 Teams below 30 wins in the east.

Honorable mention: below 20 win teams:

- Jordan: 7

- Lebron: 12

On average:

Jordan: 0.85 60 win teams, 3.0 50 win teams, 2.3 teams below 30 wins

Lebron: 0.64 60 win teams, 2.3 50 win teams, 3.5 teams below 30 wins

This is great, thanks. I knew that Jordan faced more 50 win and contending teams (of course, think about the Eastern conference competition for either player), but never saw the specific data.

[Rust_Cohle]

The knicks in the 1990s had a great defense but a weak offense,like bottom 5-10.And it was the best team that Jordan face in the east in the 1991-1998 period(outside of maybe Orlando but the magic were depleted in the 1996 series)....Don't forget,the bulls almost beat the knicks in 1994 without Jordan.If Pippen would not been out for 10 games in that season,the homecourt advantage would been likely to the Bulls and we know the home team won every games in that series

Also for the warriors,outside of 2018,this is not true

LeBron faced just one all nba player the same season in the playoffs and that was an injured Derek rose. I’m not talking about finals, I’m talking about conferences where LeBron was in a worse conference than MJ was.

Knicks went 7 games in the finals in 1994, Pippen refused to take the last shot he wasn’t really a leader. In 1995 bulls were just 34-31 until Jordan returned.

As for the Knicks the 92-93 team won 60 games, up 2-0 on the Bulls in the ECF, had the 2nd best net rating of any Knicks team of the decade (behind only 93-94). Warriors had a harder time against other western teams than they did the cavs

And again, actually read this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Jordan and its not close.

1st round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 42/ 0.5

Jordan: 48/ 2.57

2nd round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 52/ 3.15

Jordan: 52/ 3.95

CF opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 54/ 3.80

Jordan: 59/ 5.93

Jordans east:

'85 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'86 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'87 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'88 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

'89 - 1 60 win team, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 40 wins

'90 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 40 wins, 3 of those 4 teams below 30

'91 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'92 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 3 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'93 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'95 - 0 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'96 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 1 win team, 3 teams below 30 wins

'97 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'98 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

- Between '85-'98 there were 11 60 win teams, 39 50 win teams, 30 teams below 30 wins in the east.

Lebrons east:

'05 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 below 30 wins Teams

'06 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'07 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'08 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'09 - 2 60 win teams (Cavs), 1 50 win team, 1 teams below 30 wins

'10 - 1 60 win team (Cavs), 3 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'11 - 1 60 win team, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'12 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'13 - 1 60 win team (Heat), 1 50 win team, 5 teams below 30 wins

'14 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'15 - 1 60 win team, 2 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'16 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'17 - 0 60 win teams, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'18 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

- Between '05-'18 there were 9 60 win teams, 32 50 win teams, 49 Teams below 30 wins in the east.

Honorable mention: below 20 win teams:

- Jordan: 7

- Lebron: 12

On average:

Jordan: 0.85 60 win teams, 3.0 50 win teams, 2.3 teams below 30 wins

Lebron: 0.64 60 win teams, 2.3 50 win teams, 3.5 teams below 30 wins

For your first point, it wasn't just Pippen the bulls had, they were a very deep team, say what you want but the bulls were a 55 wins team with a way below average replacement at the SG position in 1994 and they almost won against the knicks who almost won the title in the same year... Also in 1993, as you say, the knicks were up 2-0 vs Chicago but the bulls won game 3 by 20 points even though Jordan was 3-18 in that game.... The margin of error was big

For your second point, the SRS and winning average is very misleading for 2 reasons

First, the bulls played against the first seed in the first round multiple times (both time vs celtics) because the bulls were the 8th seed with a losing record (image to make the playoffs at 30-52), so it raises the average big time and the other reason that's the SRS and record were inflated for all teams especially in the late 1990s because the NBA had so many awesome teams, like another NBA had like 6-7 teams with 60 or more losses so that's a big reason why we saw so many teams with great records since they had so many easy wins during the regular season....If you think teams tank too much now, it even worse in the 1990s, you just have to look at the standing from 1996 to 1998, it was brutal,so many awful team.

So of course the opponents will have a better record with that, which also raises the average of records and SRS....It was a good try by you but context matter

The east were overrated in the 1990s and it was weak.True that the 2010s east were weak too but they did not face a team like the lakers in the Kareem and Magic era at their best in the 1990s in the finals since Magic was gone after 1991....No the 1991 lakers were not the same powerhouse they were in the 1980s

And the 1995 Bulls were far worse. Pippen had a melt down in 94.

I’ve shown you tons of stats of how LeBron’s was
Comfortably weaker than Jordan’s but sure we’ll take your word for it being “overrated”. I never ever bright up finals opponents even though Jordan never had as horrible of finals as LeBron on 2007 and 2011.

LeBron’s east was called the leastern conference for a reason. Hell, the ‘98 pacers were damn good, as were the ‘93 Knicks.

Jordan also never lost a playoff series with HCA, lebron has multiple times. Jordan was 24-0 on those instances

[michaelm]

LeBron faced just one all nba player the same season in the playoffs and that was an injured Derek rose. I’m not talking about finals, I’m talking about conferences where LeBron was in a worse conference than MJ was.

Knicks went 7 games in the finals in 1994, Pippen refused to take the last shot he wasn’t really a leader. In 1995 bulls were just 34-31 until Jordan returned.

As for the Knicks the 92-93 team won 60 games, up 2-0 on the Bulls in the ECF, had the 2nd best net rating of any Knicks team of the decade (behind only 93-94). Warriors had a harder time against other western teams than they did the cavs

And again, actually read this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Jordan and its not close.

1st round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 42/ 0.5

Jordan: 48/ 2.57

2nd round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 52/ 3.15

Jordan: 52/ 3.95

CF opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 54/ 3.80

Jordan: 59/ 5.93

Jordans east:

'85 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'86 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'87 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'88 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

'89 - 1 60 win team, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 40 wins

'90 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 40 wins, 3 of those 4 teams below 30

'91 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'92 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 3 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'93 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'95 - 0 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'96 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 1 win team, 3 teams below 30 wins

'97 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'98 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

- Between '85-'98 there were 11 60 win teams, 39 50 win teams, 30 teams below 30 wins in the east.

Lebrons east:

'05 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 below 30 wins Teams

'06 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'07 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'08 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'09 - 2 60 win teams (Cavs), 1 50 win team, 1 teams below 30 wins

'10 - 1 60 win team (Cavs), 3 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'11 - 1 60 win team, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'12 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'13 - 1 60 win team (Heat), 1 50 win team, 5 teams below 30 wins

'14 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'15 - 1 60 win team, 2 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'16 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'17 - 0 60 win teams, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'18 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

- Between '05-'18 there were 9 60 win teams, 32 50 win teams, 49 Teams below 30 wins in the east.

Honorable mention: below 20 win teams:

- Jordan: 7

- Lebron: 12

On average:

Jordan: 0.85 60 win teams, 3.0 50 win teams, 2.3 teams below 30 wins

Lebron: 0.64 60 win teams, 2.3 50 win teams, 3.5 teams below 30 wins

For your first point, it wasn't just Pippen the bulls had, they were a very deep team, say what you want but the bulls were a 55 wins team with a way below average replacement at the SG position in 1994 and they almost won against the knicks who almost won the title in the same year... Also in 1993, as you say, the knicks were up 2-0 vs Chicago but the bulls won game 3 by 20 points even though Jordan was 3-18 in that game.... The margin of error was big

For your second point, the SRS and winning average is very misleading for 2 reasons

First, the bulls played against the first seed in the first round multiple times (both time vs celtics) because the bulls were the 8th seed with a losing record (image to make the playoffs at 30-52), so it raises the average big time and the other reason that's the SRS and record were inflated for all teams especially in the late 1990s because the NBA had so many awesome teams, like another NBA had like 6-7 teams with 60 or more losses so that's a big reason why we saw so many teams with great records since they had so many easy wins during the regular season....If you think teams tank too much now, it even worse in the 1990s, you just have to look at the standing from 1996 to 1998, it was brutal,so many awful team.

So of course the opponents will have a better record with that, which also raises the average of records and SRS....It was a good try by you but context matter

The east were overrated in the 1990s and it was weak.True that the 2010s east were weak too but they did not face a team like the lakers in the Kareem and Magic era at their best in the 1990s in the finals since Magic was gone after 1991....No the 1991 lakers were not the same powerhouse they were in the 1980s

And the 1995 Bulls were far worse. Pippen had a melt down in 94.

I’ve shown you tons of stats of how LeBron’s was
Comfortably weaker than Jordan’s but sure we’ll take your word for it being “overrated”. I never ever bright up finals opponents even though Jordan never had as horrible of finals as LeBron on 2007 and 2011.

LeBron’s east was called the leastern conference for a reason. Hell, the ‘98 pacers were damn good, as were the ‘93 Knicks.

Jordan also never lost a playoff series with HCA, lebron has multiple times. Jordan was 24-0 on those instances

You are starting from the wrong point. LeBron is obviously better is what your initial assumption should be, and then any data which conflicts with this becomes irrelevant.

[ScrantonBulls]

The knicks in the 1990s had a great defense but a weak offense,like bottom 5-10.And it was the best team that Jordan face in the east in the 1991-1998 period(outside of maybe Orlando but the magic were depleted in the 1996 series)....Don't forget,the bulls almost beat the knicks in 1994 without Jordan.If Pippen would not been out for 10 games in that season,the homecourt advantage would been likely to the Bulls and we know the home team won every games in that series

Also for the warriors,outside of 2018,this is not true

LeBron faced just one all nba player the same season in the playoffs and that was an injured Derek rose. I’m not talking about finals, I’m talking about conferences where LeBron was in a worse conference than MJ was.

Knicks went 7 games in the finals in 1994, Pippen refused to take the last shot he wasn’t really a leader. In 1995 bulls were just 34-31 until Jordan returned.

As for the Knicks the 92-93 team won 60 games, up 2-0 on the Bulls in the ECF, had the 2nd best net rating of any Knicks team of the decade (behind only 93-94). Warriors had a harder time against other western teams than they did the cavs

And again, actually read this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Jordan and its not close.

1st round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 42/ 0.5

Jordan: 48/ 2.57

2nd round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 52/ 3.15

Jordan: 52/ 3.95

CF opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 54/ 3.80

Jordan: 59/ 5.93

Jordans east:

'85 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'86 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'87 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'88 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

'89 - 1 60 win team, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 40 wins

'90 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 40 wins, 3 of those 4 teams below 30

'91 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'92 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 3 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'93 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'95 - 0 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'96 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 1 win team, 3 teams below 30 wins

'97 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'98 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

- Between '85-'98 there were 11 60 win teams, 39 50 win teams, 30 teams below 30 wins in the east.

Lebrons east:

'05 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 below 30 wins Teams

'06 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'07 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'08 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'09 - 2 60 win teams (Cavs), 1 50 win team, 1 teams below 30 wins

'10 - 1 60 win team (Cavs), 3 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'11 - 1 60 win team, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'12 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'13 - 1 60 win team (Heat), 1 50 win team, 5 teams below 30 wins

'14 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'15 - 1 60 win team, 2 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'16 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'17 - 0 60 win teams, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'18 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

- Between '05-'18 there were 9 60 win teams, 32 50 win teams, 49 Teams below 30 wins in the east.

Honorable mention: below 20 win teams:

- Jordan: 7

- Lebron: 12

On average:

Jordan: 0.85 60 win teams, 3.0 50 win teams, 2.3 teams below 30 wins

Lebron: 0.64 60 win teams, 2.3 50 win teams, 3.5 teams below 30 wins

For your first point, it wasn't just Pippen the bulls had, they were a very deep team, say what you want but the bulls were a 55 wins team with a way below average replacement at the SG position in 1994 and they almost won against the knicks who almost won the title in the same year... Also in 1993, as you say, the knicks were up 2-0 vs Chicago but the bulls won game 3 by 20 points even though Jordan was 3-18 in that game.... The margin of error was big

For your second point, the SRS and winning average is very misleading for 2 reasons

First, the bulls played against the first seed in the first round multiple times (both time vs celtics) because the bulls were the 8th seed with a losing record (image to make the playoffs at 30-52), so it raises the average big time and the other reason that's the SRS and record were inflated for all teams especially in the late 1990s because the NBA had so many awesome teams, like another NBA had like 6-7 teams with 60 or more losses so that's a big reason why we saw so many teams with great records since they had so many easy wins during the regular season....If you think teams tank too much now, it even worse in the 1990s, you just have to look at the standing from 1996 to 1998, it was brutal,so many awful team.

So of course the opponents will have a better record with that, which also raises the average of records and SRS....It was a good try by you but context matter

The east were overrated in the 1990s and it was weak.True that the 2010s east were weak too but they did not face a team like the lakers in the Kareem and Magic era at their best in the 1990s in the finals since Magic was gone after 1991....No the 1991 lakers were not the same powerhouse they were in the 1980s

Kudos for attempting to have a civil and logical discussion with the most ardent Jordan mythologists. Unfortunately it isn't worth it. Hard to change somebody's mind or have a reasonable discussion when they think somebody is literally a god.

[Rust_Cohle]

For your first point, it wasn't just Pippen the bulls had, they were a very deep team, say what you want but the bulls were a 55 wins team with a way below average replacement at the SG position in 1994 and they almost won against the knicks who almost won the title in the same year... Also in 1993, as you say, the knicks were up 2-0 vs Chicago but the bulls won game 3 by 20 points even though Jordan was 3-18 in that game.... The margin of error was big

For your second point, the SRS and winning average is very misleading for 2 reasons

First, the bulls played against the first seed in the first round multiple times (both time vs celtics) because the bulls were the 8th seed with a losing record (image to make the playoffs at 30-52), so it raises the average big time and the other reason that's the SRS and record were inflated for all teams especially in the late 1990s because the NBA had so many awesome teams, like another NBA had like 6-7 teams with 60 or more losses so that's a big reason why we saw so many teams with great records since they had so many easy wins during the regular season....If you think teams tank too much now, it even worse in the 1990s, you just have to look at the standing from 1996 to 1998, it was brutal,so many awful team.

So of course the opponents will have a better record with that, which also raises the average of records and SRS....It was a good try by you but context matter

The east were overrated in the 1990s and it was weak.True that the 2010s east were weak too but they did not face a team like the lakers in the Kareem and Magic era at their best in the 1990s in the finals since Magic was gone after 1991....No the 1991 lakers were not the same powerhouse they were in the 1980s

And the 1995 Bulls were far worse. Pippen had a melt down in 94.

I’ve shown you tons of stats of how LeBron’s was
Comfortably weaker than Jordan’s but sure we’ll take your word for it being “overrated”. I never ever bright up finals opponents even though Jordan never had as horrible of finals as LeBron on 2007 and 2011.

LeBron’s east was called the leastern conference for a reason. Hell, the ‘98 pacers were damn good, as were the ‘93 Knicks.

Jordan also never lost a playoff series with HCA, lebron has multiple times. Jordan was 24-0 on those instances

You are starting from the wrong point. LeBron is obviously better is what your initial assumption should be, and then any data which conflicts with this becomes irrelevant.

I love when doing research to bring stats to the table and the come back is “east was overrated in the 90’s” uhhh by every metric they were better the east in the 2010’s so the east in the 2010’s was truly shite then

[michaelm]

LeBron faced just one all nba player the same season in the playoffs and that was an injured Derek rose. I’m not talking about finals, I’m talking about conferences where LeBron was in a worse conference than MJ was.

Knicks went 7 games in the finals in 1994, Pippen refused to take the last shot he wasn’t really a leader. In 1995 bulls were just 34-31 until Jordan returned.

As for the Knicks the 92-93 team won 60 games, up 2-0 on the Bulls in the ECF, had the 2nd best net rating of any Knicks team of the decade (behind only 93-94). Warriors had a harder time against other western teams than they did the cavs

And again, actually read this:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

Jordan and its not close.

1st round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 42/ 0.5

Jordan: 48/ 2.57

2nd round opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 52/ 3.15

Jordan: 52/ 3.95

CF opponent win average/SRS:

Lebron: 54/ 3.80

Jordan: 59/ 5.93

Jordans east:

'85 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'86 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'87 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'88 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

'89 - 1 60 win team, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 40 wins

'90 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 40 wins, 3 of those 4 teams below 30

'91 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'92 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 3 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'93 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'95 - 0 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'96 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 1 win team, 3 teams below 30 wins

'97 - 2 60 win teams (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'98 - 1 60 win team (Bulls), 4 50 win teams, 1 team below 30 wins

- Between '85-'98 there were 11 60 win teams, 39 50 win teams, 30 teams below 30 wins in the east.

Lebrons east:

'05 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 below 30 wins Teams

'06 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'07 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'08 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'09 - 2 60 win teams (Cavs), 1 50 win team, 1 teams below 30 wins

'10 - 1 60 win team (Cavs), 3 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'11 - 1 60 win team, 4 50 win teams, 4 teams below 30 wins

'12 - 1 60 win team, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'13 - 1 60 win team (Heat), 1 50 win team, 5 teams below 30 wins

'14 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

'15 - 1 60 win team, 2 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'16 - 0 60 win teams, 2 50 win teams, 2 teams below 30 wins

'17 - 0 60 win teams, 3 50 win teams, 3 teams below 30 wins

'18 - 0 60 win teams, 4 50 win teams, 5 teams below 30 wins

- Between '05-'18 there were 9 60 win teams, 32 50 win teams, 49 Teams below 30 wins in the east.

Honorable mention: below 20 win teams:

- Jordan: 7

- Lebron: 12

On average:

Jordan: 0.85 60 win teams, 3.0 50 win teams, 2.3 teams below 30 wins

Lebron: 0.64 60 win teams, 2.3 50 win teams, 3.5 teams below 30 wins

For your first point, it wasn't just Pippen the bulls had, they were a very deep team, say what you want but the bulls were a 55 wins team with a way below average replacement at the SG position in 1994 and they almost won against the knicks who almost won the title in the same year... Also in 1993, as you say, the knicks were up 2-0 vs Chicago but the bulls won game 3 by 20 points even though Jordan was 3-18 in that game.... The margin of error was big

For your second point, the SRS and winning average is very misleading for 2 reasons

First, the bulls played against the first seed in the first round multiple times (both time vs celtics) because the bulls were the 8th seed with a losing record (image to make the playoffs at 30-52), so it raises the average big time and the other reason that's the SRS and record were inflated for all teams especially in the late 1990s because the NBA had so many awesome teams, like another NBA had like 6-7 teams with 60 or more losses so that's a big reason why we saw so many teams with great records since they had so many easy wins during the regular season....If you think teams tank too much now, it even worse in the 1990s, you just have to look at the standing from 1996 to 1998, it was brutal,so many awful team.

So of course the opponents will have a better record with that, which also raises the average of records and SRS....It was a good try by you but context matter

The east were overrated in the 1990s and it was weak.True that the 2010s east were weak too but they did not face a team like the lakers in the Kareem and Magic era at their best in the 1990s in the finals since Magic was gone after 1991....No the 1991 lakers were not the same powerhouse they were in the 1980s

Kudos for attempting to have a civil and logical discussion with the most ardent Jordan mythologists. Unfortunately it isn't worth it. Hard to change somebody's mind or have a reasonable discussion when they think somebody is literally a god.

As opposed to your cool rationality and evidence based approach to LeBron.