The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[dhsilv2]

Non quantitative: If you don't blow coverage but don't defend when you're covering someone, you're a bad defender.

Qualitative (which I've already done so not sure why you're acting like I only gave you a video:

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and “defend” at least 3 FG a game, Jokic ranks 7th (among 100) in FGA, and
2nd in FGM.

• Among this group he is 14th to last (69.5 percent) in DFG% ( How well players shoot when defended by him) (According to Defensive impact tracking, I could be wrong about what this pecentage comprises i.e overal vs rim protection)

• I believe the above metric are more indicative of help defense (not just rim protection, but I could be wrong) as the numbers
below suggest that they are when the player in question is the primary defender:

• Among NBA C’s who’ve played 30 games or more (60 players), Jokic has had the most FGA attempted on him (Overall, not just
at the rim), to which he defends at a DFG% of 49 percent (55 out of 61) this is compared to FG% (49.4 percent) which indicates
how well a player shoots when their defender isn’t actively defending them (again I can be wrong about how this is framed, I
don’t generally use advanced or tracking metrics). So players being defended by Jokic (i.e he’s actually putting pressure on
them, versus when he isn’t) are essentially shooting the same FG percentage.

• From within 6ft, Jokic ranks third among C’s who’ve played at least 30 games in DFGA while ranking 50th out of 61 in DFG%
(63.8 percent) vs 64.3 FG% percent, his differential (assumingly between when he’s putting pressure on the offender and not is
-0.6)

• In terms of differential % among this group from 6 ft in, Jokic ranks 48th our of 61.

• Overall he ranks 38 out of 61

• Among players who’ve played at least 30 games and contested at least three shots a game (Again this is overall, not at the
rim), a metric that seems to be dominated by big, Jokic ranks 129th (5.2) out of 203.

OK, keep going.

You've done this over and over. You've made a case that Jokic is extremely active but has low impact on player's shots. But you've not including the impact his disruption has from kicked balls, deflections, steals or added in his rebounding. I asked for you to quantify his defense. Not restate data to support something we have all agreed on already.

[Chanel Bomber]

There are a lot of different elements that make a player's defense, some of which aren't necessarily trackable.

DFG% is far too narrow to begin describing a player's defensive impact. Being the defender against whom the offense shot captures what, 10% of a player's defensive possessions? 15% perhaps? What about the other 85% of all other defensive possessions?

Using those numbers and extrapolating them to draw conclusions about defensive impact is by definition misguided.

Everybody knows Jokic isn't a rim protector, and not the best shot "contestor". But the defensive possessions where he's put in that position only account for a small minority of defensive possessions.

Jokic has great hands defensively, he's always among the top centers in steals, he disrupts the passing lanes with his length and anticipation skills, he's a good post defender, he can marshall the defense, and he's a great rebounder.

And most of those things have more consistent effect across all defensive possessions than the small portion of possessions where he ends up being the defender contesting a shot.

Jokic is a solid defender overall - the advanced impact metrics support this. He's not a rim protector. These realities aren't mutually exclusive.

[ryan in Maine]

Jokic hasn't had much more help than say, KG in Minnesota or Pierce in Boston, has he?

[DimesandKnicks]

OK, keep going.

You've done this over and over. You've made a case that Jokic is extremely active but has low impact on player's shots. But you've not including the impact his disruption has from kicked balls, deflections, steals or added in his rebounding. I asked for you to quantify his defense. Not restate data to support something we have all agreed on already.

I quantified what I think makes him a bad defender, you think that his capacity to disrupt offenses overcomes this and makes him an average defender.

I don’t think that disrupting an offense in this way overcomes being a player who has the most shot attempts attempted on while being one of the worst in the league at actually defending.

Luka also disrupts offenses and is an elite rebounder at his position, but we all consider him a bad defender because he isn’t good at the main thing you want your wings to do on defense which is keep your man in front of you.

By your standards, Jokic is an average defender because he rebounds, gets deflections kick balls and steals, I think he’s a bad defender because he’s actually among the worst in the league and his position at actually defending

Despite him creating these disruptions, which when Luka does it he’s just gambling, the difference between when he’s applying pressure on an offender and not is -.04. This is pathetic. It means his impact when he’s actually actively defending and contesting shots is nearly as bad as when he is not

[DimesandKnicks]

There are a lot of different elements that make a player's defense, some of which aren't necessarily trackable.

DFG% is far too narrow to begin describing a player's defensive impact. Being the defender against whom the offense shot captures what, 10% of a player's defensive possessions? 15% perhaps? What about the other 85% of all other defensive possessions?

Using those numbers and extrapolating them to draw conclusions about defensive impact is by definition misguided.

Everybody knows Jokic isn't a rim protector, and not the best shot "contestor". But the defensive possessions where he's put in that position only account for a small minority of defensive possessions.

Jokic has great hands defensively, he's always among the top centers in steals, he disrupts the passing lanes with his length and anticipation skills, he's a good post defender, he can marshall the defense, and he's a great rebounder.

And most of those things have more consistent effect across all defensive possessions than the small portion of possessions where he ends up being the defender contesting a shot.

Jokic is a solid defender overall - the advanced impact metrics support this. He's not a rim protector. These realities aren't mutually exclusive.

I covered his metrics when he’s the primary defender, help defender, when he’s in position to defend and how he performs in those moments. By all of those metrics he’s one of the worst in the league.

Jokic is in position to defend 20 FGA a game. By every metric, he’s really bad at stopping the other team from scoring in those moments

[dhsilv2]

You've done this over and over. You've made a case that Jokic is extremely active but has low impact on player's shots. But you've not including the impact his disruption has from kicked balls, deflections, steals or added in his rebounding. I asked for you to quantify his defense. Not restate data to support something we have all agreed on already.

I quantified what I think makes him a bad defender, you think that his capacity to disrupt offenses overcomes this and makes him an average defender.

I don’t think that disrupting an offense in this way overcomes being a player who has the most shot attempts attempted on while being one of the worst in the league at actually defending.

Luka also disrupts offenses and is an elite rebounder at his position, but we all consider him a bad defender because he isn’t good at the main thing you want your wings to do on defense which is keep your man in front of you.

By your standards, Jokic is an average defender because he rebounds, gets deflections kick balls and steals, I think he’s a bad defender because he’s actually among the worst in the league and his position at actually defending

Despite him creating these disruptions, which when Luka does it he’s just gambling, the difference between when he’s applying pressure on an offender and not is -.04. This is pathetic. It means his impact when he’s actually actively defending and contesting shots is nearly as bad as when he is not

I have show the RAPM based metrics that QUANTIFY that Jokic's defense is a net positive all be it very minimal. I've explained why when you're at the top of the league in contesting that 0.04 is actually meaningful and I showed how it compared to Gobert on a per 100 basis. I've go over how disrupting 6+ plays when added into this metrics, means teams are net generating a lower outcome than league average offense.

You're making the case that you don't "feel" it works that way and I"m asking you to put numbers to it.

[Chanel Bomber]

There are a lot of different elements that make a player's defense, some of which aren't necessarily trackable.

DFG% is far too narrow to begin describing a player's defensive impact. Being the defender against whom the offense shot captures what, 10% of a player's defensive possessions? 15% perhaps? What about the other 85% of all other defensive possessions?

Using those numbers and extrapolating them to draw conclusions about defensive impact is by definition misguided.

Everybody knows Jokic isn't a rim protector, and not the best shot "contestor". But the defensive possessions where he's put in that position only account for a small minority of defensive possessions.

Jokic has great hands defensively, he's always among the top centers in steals, he disrupts the passing lanes with his length and anticipation skills, he's a good post defender, he can marshall the defense, and he's a great rebounder.

And most of those things have more consistent effect across all defensive possessions than the small portion of possessions where he ends up being the defender contesting a shot.

Jokic is a solid defender overall - the advanced impact metrics support this. He's not a rim protector. These realities aren't mutually exclusive.

I covered his metrics when he’s the primary defender, help defender, when he’s in position to defend and how he performs in those moments. By all of those metrics he’s one of the worst in the league.

Jokic is in position to defend 20 FGA a game. By every metric, he’s really bad at stopping the other team from scoring in those moments

Jokic plays 36 minutes per game, i.e. 75% of a 48-minute game. If we apply this to Denver's pace, we can guess that Jokic is on the court for approximately 75 defensive possessions per game.

So these 20 FGAs represent only 27% of the defensive possessions for which he's on the court.

Which goes back to the point that you are judging Jokic's defense on how he fares at the end of only 27% of the possessions in which he actually plays. Do you see the flaw in this method?

The stats you are using at are narrow and selective, and paint only a partial picture of a player's overall defense. Which isn't to say they're irrelevant. You just can't automatically draw the conclusion that Jokic sucks on defense by extrapolating pointed statistics to overall defensive impact. The best metrics that account for team performance with a player on the court suggest strongly that he's not a bad defender.

[DimesandKnicks]

There are a lot of different elements that make a player's defense, some of which aren't necessarily trackable.

DFG% is far too narrow to begin describing a player's defensive impact. Being the defender against whom the offense shot captures what, 10% of a player's defensive possessions? 15% perhaps? What about the other 85% of all other defensive possessions?

Using those numbers and extrapolating them to draw conclusions about defensive impact is by definition misguided.

Everybody knows Jokic isn't a rim protector, and not the best shot "contestor". But the defensive possessions where he's put in that position only account for a small minority of defensive possessions.

Jokic has great hands defensively, he's always among the top centers in steals, he disrupts the passing lanes with his length and anticipation skills, he's a good post defender, he can marshall the defense, and he's a great rebounder.

And most of those things have more consistent effect across all defensive possessions than the small portion of possessions where he ends up being the defender contesting a shot.

Jokic is a solid defender overall - the advanced impact metrics support this. He's not a rim protector. These realities aren't mutually exclusive.

I covered his metrics when he’s the primary defender, help defender, when he’s in position to defend and how he performs in those moments. By all of those metrics he’s one of the worst in the league.

Jokic is in position to defend 20 FGA a game. By every metric, he’s really bad at stopping the other team from scoring in those moments

Jokic plays 36 minutes per game, i.e. 75% of a 48-minute game. If we apply this to Denver's pace, we can guess that Jokic is on the court for approximately 75 defensive possessions per game.

So these 20 FGAs represent only 27% of the defensive possessions for which he's on the court.

Which goes back to the point that you are judging Jokic's defense on how he fares at the end of only 27% of the possessions in which he actually plays. Do you see the flaw in this method?

The stats you are using at are narrow and selective, and paint only a partial picture of a player's overall defense. Which isn't to say they're irrelevant. You just can't automatically draw the conclusion that Jokic sucks on defense by extrapolating pointed statistics to overall defensive impact. The best metrics that account for team performance with a player on the court suggest strongly that he's not a bad defender.

I’m evaluating Jokic’s actual defensive possessions (I.e how well he plays defense when he gets the opportunity to play defense) I’m not sure why the percentage of possessions he doesn’t play is relevant to how good he is when he actually gets an opportunity to defend. What am I missing?

[DimesandKnicks]

You've done this over and over. You've made a case that Jokic is extremely active but has low impact on player's shots. But you've not including the impact his disruption has from kicked balls, deflections, steals or added in his rebounding. I asked for you to quantify his defense. Not restate data to support something we have all agreed on already.

I quantified what I think makes him a bad defender, you think that his capacity to disrupt offenses overcomes this and makes him an average defender.

I don’t think that disrupting an offense in this way overcomes being a player who has the most shot attempts attempted on while being one of the worst in the league at actually defending.

Luka also disrupts offenses and is an elite rebounder at his position, but we all consider him a bad defender because he isn’t good at the main thing you want your wings to do on defense which is keep your man in front of you.

By your standards, Jokic is an average defender because he rebounds, gets deflections kick balls and steals, I think he’s a bad defender because he’s actually among the worst in the league and his position at actually defending

Despite him creating these disruptions, which when Luka does it he’s just gambling, the difference between when he’s applying pressure on an offender and not is -.04. This is pathetic. It means his impact when he’s actually actively defending and contesting shots is nearly as bad as when he is not

I have show the RAPM based metrics that QUANTIFY that Jokic's defense is a net positive all be it very minimal. I've explained why when you're at the top of the league in contesting that 0.04 is actually meaningful and I showed how it compared to Gobert on a per 100 basis. I've go over how disrupting 6+ plays when added into this metrics, means teams are net generating a lower outcome than league average offense.

You're making the case that you don't "feel" it works that way and I"m asking you to put numbers to it.

I’m not arguing that he doesn’t disrupt six plus plays, I’m arguing that despite that he’s among the worst at stopping players from scoring once they’re actually attempting shots.


Do you really look at all that data, with him being at the bottom all those metrics but come out saying but yea his kick balls and deflections make up for that? Because again, he doesn’t beat Luka in that respect by a large margin and we all consider him a bad defender

[AleksandarN]

You've done this over and over. You've made a case that Jokic is extremely active but has low impact on player's shots. But you've not including the impact his disruption has from kicked balls, deflections, steals or added in his rebounding. I asked for you to quantify his defense. Not restate data to support something we have all agreed on already.

I quantified what I think makes him a bad defender, you think that his capacity to disrupt offenses overcomes this and makes him an average defender.

I don’t think that disrupting an offense in this way overcomes being a player who has the most shot attempts attempted on while being one of the worst in the league at actually defending.

Luka also disrupts offenses and is an elite rebounder at his position, but we all consider him a bad defender because he isn’t good at the main thing you want your wings to do on defense which is keep your man in front of you.

By your standards, Jokic is an average defender because he rebounds, gets deflections kick balls and steals, I think he’s a bad defender because he’s actually among the worst in the league and his position at actually defending

Despite him creating these disruptions, which when Luka does it he’s just gambling, the difference between when he’s applying pressure on an offender and not is -.04. This is pathetic. It means his impact when he’s actually actively defending and contesting shots is nearly as bad as when he is not

So Luka is elite rebounder but Jokic isn’t? You’re hilarious. Luka is not close to jokic on contested rebounds. But you call Luka elite but Jokic isn’t. Sure. You are so disingenuous. You are easy work.

[DimesandKnicks]

You've done this over and over. You've made a case that Jokic is extremely active but has low impact on player's shots. But you've not including the impact his disruption has from kicked balls, deflections, steals or added in his rebounding. I asked for you to quantify his defense. Not restate data to support something we have all agreed on already.

I quantified what I think makes him a bad defender, you think that his capacity to disrupt offenses overcomes this and makes him an average defender.

I don’t think that disrupting an offense in this way overcomes being a player who has the most shot attempts attempted on while being one of the worst in the league at actually defending.

Luka also disrupts offenses and is an elite rebounder at his position, but we all consider him a bad defender because he isn’t good at the main thing you want your wings to do on defense which is keep your man in front of you.

By your standards, Jokic is an average defender because he rebounds, gets deflections kick balls and steals, I think he’s a bad defender because he’s actually among the worst in the league and his position at actually defending

Despite him creating these disruptions, which when Luka does it he’s just gambling, the difference between when he’s applying pressure on an offender and not is -.04. This is pathetic. It means his impact when he’s actually actively defending and contesting shots is nearly as bad as when he is not

See I Luka is elite rebounder but Jokic isn’t. Your hilarious. Luka is not close to jokic in contested rebounds. But you call Jokic not elite but Luka is. Sure. You are easy work.

Jokic is an elite rebounder. Fixed it for you again. This is why I keep ignoring you. Your bringing nothing of value

[Chanel Bomber]

I covered his metrics when he’s the primary defender, help defender, when he’s in position to defend and how he performs in those moments. By all of those metrics he’s one of the worst in the league.

Jokic is in position to defend 20 FGA a game. By every metric, he’s really bad at stopping the other team from scoring in those moments

Jokic plays 36 minutes per game, i.e. 75% of a 48-minute game. If we apply this to Denver's pace, we can guess that Jokic is on the court for approximately 75 defensive possessions per game.

So these 20 FGAs represent only 27% of the defensive possessions for which he's on the court.

Which goes back to the point that you are judging Jokic's defense on how he fares at the end of only 27% of the possessions in which he actually plays. Do you see the flaw in this method?

The stats you are using at are narrow and selective, and paint only a partial picture of a player's overall defense. Which isn't to say they're irrelevant. You just can't automatically draw the conclusion that Jokic sucks on defense by extrapolating pointed statistics to overall defensive impact. The best metrics that account for team performance with a player on the court suggest strongly that he's not a bad defender.

I’m evaluating Jokic’s actual defensive possessions (I.e how well he plays defense when he gets the opportunity to play defense) I’m not sure why the percentage of possessions he doesn’t play is relevant to how good he is when he actually gets an opportunity to defend. What am I missing?

Because you have to play defense on every defensive possession. And the defensive possessions you look at only account for a minority of defensive possessions in which Jokic plays.

Playing defense is not just a player's ability to contest shots.

What, you think players don't play a role on defense if they aren't the one defender contesting the shot? If it's all about the ability to contest shots, is nobody at fault for allowing a wide-open 3-pointer because no one contested the shot?

Making the proper rotation, switching or doubling when needed, disrupting the passing lanes, stealing the ball, securing the defensive rebound, guarding the post - these are all crucial elements of defense.

And the way you look at defense completely ignores those different facets.

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic plays 36 minutes per game, i.e. 75% of a 48-minute game. If we apply this to Denver's pace, we can guess that Jokic is on the court for approximately 75 defensive possessions per game.

So these 20 FGAs represent only 27% of the defensive possessions for which he's on the court.

Which goes back to the point that you are judging Jokic's defense on how he fares at the end of only 27% of the possessions in which he actually plays. Do you see the flaw in this method?

The stats you are using at are narrow and selective, and paint only a partial picture of a player's overall defense. Which isn't to say they're irrelevant. You just can't automatically draw the conclusion that Jokic sucks on defense by extrapolating pointed statistics to overall defensive impact. The best metrics that account for team performance with a player on the court suggest strongly that he's not a bad defender.

I’m evaluating Jokic’s actual defensive possessions (I.e how well he plays defense when he gets the opportunity to play defense) I’m not sure why the percentage of possessions he doesn’t play is relevant to how good he is when he actually gets an opportunity to defend. What am I missing?

Because you have to play defense on every defensive possession. And the defensive possessions you look at only account for a minority of defensive possessions in which Jokic plays.

Playing defense is not just a player's ability to contest shots.

What, you think players don't play a role on defense if they aren't the one defender contesting the shot? If it's all about the ability to contest shots, is nobody at fault for allowing a wide-open 3-pointer because no one contested the shot?

Making the proper rotation, switching or doubling when needed, disrupting the passing lanes, stealing the ball, securing the defensive rebound, guarding the post - these are all crucial elements of defense.

And the way you look at defense completely ignores those different facets.

You make a valid point. I generally don’t use advanced metrics at all to evaluate a players impact but if you have any metrics that do quantify this impact I’m all ears.

[AleksandarN]

I quantified what I think makes him a bad defender, you think that his capacity to disrupt offenses overcomes this and makes him an average defender.

I don’t think that disrupting an offense in this way overcomes being a player who has the most shot attempts attempted on while being one of the worst in the league at actually defending.

Luka also disrupts offenses and is an elite rebounder at his position, but we all consider him a bad defender because he isn’t good at the main thing you want your wings to do on defense which is keep your man in front of you.

By your standards, Jokic is an average defender because he rebounds, gets deflections kick balls and steals, I think he’s a bad defender because he’s actually among the worst in the league and his position at actually defending

Despite him creating these disruptions, which when Luka does it he’s just gambling, the difference between when he’s applying pressure on an offender and not is -.04. This is pathetic. It means his impact when he’s actually actively defending and contesting shots is nearly as bad as when he is not

See I Luka is elite rebounder but Jokic isn’t. Your hilarious. Luka is not close to jokic in contested rebounds. But you call Jokic not elite but Luka is. Sure. You are easy work.

Jokic is an elite rebounder. Fixed it for you again. This is why I keep ignoring you. Your bringing nothing of value

Calling you out on your disingenuous comments. I like how you ignore stats that don’t fit your narrative. Luka is not close to Jokic when it comes to rebounding. Luka’s rebounding is not close to the same as Jokic’s. Luka sits at 21 percent of contested rebounds whereas Jokic is at around 32. My value is calling you out on your ****.

[DimesandKnicks]

See I Luka is elite rebounder but Jokic isn’t. Your hilarious. Luka is not close to jokic in contested rebounds. But you call Jokic not elite but Luka is. Sure. You are easy work.

Jokic is an elite rebounder. Fixed it for you again. This is why I keep ignoring you. Your bringing nothing of value

Calling you out on your disingenuous comments. I like how you ignore stats that don’t fit your narrative. Luka is not close to Jokic when it comes to rebounding. Luka’s rebounding is not close to the same as Jokic’s. Luka sits at 21 percent of contested rebounds whereas Jokic is at around 32. My value is calling you out on your ****.

Moving on

[dhsilv2]

I quantified what I think makes him a bad defender, you think that his capacity to disrupt offenses overcomes this and makes him an average defender.

I don’t think that disrupting an offense in this way overcomes being a player who has the most shot attempts attempted on while being one of the worst in the league at actually defending.

Luka also disrupts offenses and is an elite rebounder at his position, but we all consider him a bad defender because he isn’t good at the main thing you want your wings to do on defense which is keep your man in front of you.

By your standards, Jokic is an average defender because he rebounds, gets deflections kick balls and steals, I think he’s a bad defender because he’s actually among the worst in the league and his position at actually defending

Despite him creating these disruptions, which when Luka does it he’s just gambling, the difference between when he’s applying pressure on an offender and not is -.04. This is pathetic. It means his impact when he’s actually actively defending and contesting shots is nearly as bad as when he is not

I have show the RAPM based metrics that QUANTIFY that Jokic's defense is a net positive all be it very minimal. I've explained why when you're at the top of the league in contesting that 0.04 is actually meaningful and I showed how it compared to Gobert on a per 100 basis. I've go over how disrupting 6+ plays when added into this metrics, means teams are net generating a lower outcome than league average offense.

You're making the case that you don't "feel" it works that way and I"m asking you to put numbers to it.

I’m not arguing that he doesn’t disrupt six plus plays, I’m arguing that despite that he’s among the worst at stopping players from scoring once they’re actually attempting shots.


Do you really look at all that data, with him being at the bottom all those metrics but come out saying but yea his kick balls and deflections make up for that? Because again, he doesn’t beat Luka in that respect by a large margin and we all consider him a bad defender

We've already covered Luka. Luka gets less of ALL those things while being involved in less plays because...as we covered. He doesn't stay engaged on the plays while Jokic does. Remember all that distance traveled stuff and then comparing a wing vs a drop center? And as we covered Luka is a poor to average defender. The gap in these two isn't huge.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic is an elite rebounder. Fixed it for you again. This is why I keep ignoring you. Your bringing nothing of value

Calling you out on your disingenuous comments. I like how you ignore stats that don’t fit your narrative. Luka is not close to Jokic when it comes to rebounding. Luka’s rebounding is not close to the same as Jokic’s. Luka sits at 21 percent of contested rebounds whereas Jokic is at around 32. My value is calling you out on your ****.

Moving on

Like I said easy work

[DimesandKnicks]

I have show the RAPM based metrics that QUANTIFY that Jokic's defense is a net positive all be it very minimal. I've explained why when you're at the top of the league in contesting that 0.04 is actually meaningful and I showed how it compared to Gobert on a per 100 basis. I've go over how disrupting 6+ plays when added into this metrics, means teams are net generating a lower outcome than league average offense.

You're making the case that you don't "feel" it works that way and I"m asking you to put numbers to it.

I’m not arguing that he doesn’t disrupt six plus plays, I’m arguing that despite that he’s among the worst at stopping players from scoring once they’re actually attempting shots.


Do you really look at all that data, with him being at the bottom all those metrics but come out saying but yea his kick balls and deflections make up for that? Because again, he doesn’t beat Luka in that respect by a large margin and we all consider him a bad defender

We've already covered Luka. Luka gets less of ALL those things while being involved in less plays because...as we covered. He doesn't stay engaged on the plays while Jokic does. Remember all that distance traveled stuff and then comparing a wing vs a drop center? And as we covered Luka is a poor to average defender. The gap in these two isn't huge.

Distance traveled on Defense:

Jokic 1.12
Doncic 1.07
?

And if you think Luka is an average defender then I get it and I keep saying but I guess not really accepting that we have different standards for “good” defense

[HotRocks34]

Denver is one win away from proving that true. Jokic is not the best defender in the NBA or even on his own team. He has several shortcomings that would be more glaring if not for his complete and total brilliance as an offensive machine.

But after watching this postseason, anyone who still believes he makes positive contributions on only one side of the ball genuinely might need to pay closer attention.

https://www.theringer.com/2023/06/12/nba/nikola-jokic-defense-denver-nuggets-2023-nba-finals

[dhsilv2]

I’m not arguing that he doesn’t disrupt six plus plays, I’m arguing that despite that he’s among the worst at stopping players from scoring once they’re actually attempting shots.


Do you really look at all that data, with him being at the bottom all those metrics but come out saying but yea his kick balls and deflections make up for that? Because again, he doesn’t beat Luka in that respect by a large margin and we all consider him a bad defender

We've already covered Luka. Luka gets less of ALL those things while being involved in less plays because...as we covered. He doesn't stay engaged on the plays while Jokic does. Remember all that distance traveled stuff and then comparing a wing vs a drop center? And as we covered Luka is a poor to average defender. The gap in these two isn't huge.

Distance traveled on Defense:

Jokic 1.12
Doncic 1.07
?

And if you think Luka is an average defender then I get it and I keep saying but I guess not really accepting that we have different standards for “good” defense

We have not once in this discussion touched on good beyond you keep saying good and I keep telling you nobody has called anyone good here.

Average means you don't make your teams defense better or worse. It's that simple.