The OFFICIAL rookie impressions thread pt.III

[sir G Wallace]

I was about to say the same thing. His passive aggressive attacks on Lillard are perfect for him to be able to talk **** about him and get away with it. When confronted about it he acts like the person confronting him just doesnt understand him properly and is over-reacting.

[Jon1798]

lol, I've never said one disparaging thing regarding Lillard(minus an honest discussion about his assist numbers and the talent around him). I've actually said numerous times throughout the thread how much I like Lillard. He was a guy I defended ad nauseum on the Hornets boards back when it was looking like he could slip to our second pick at 10. Maybe you have me confused with someone else, maybe it's my Hornets avatars, they always seem to get people's attention, I don't know.

Why is it surprising that I or anyone would compare to Lillard? He has been the Blazer fans self proclaimed rookie of the year, no comparison, not even close, from like the second game of the year. I don't think it's strange when comparing top rookies to include Lillard.

All I have done through most all of this thread is try to show apples to apples comparisons. PER and per 36 stats. A....yes, Lillard has been fantastic, but look what Davis has done, look what Drummond has done. If you can get past the fact that Lillard actually plays twice the minutes of a Drummond, you can see that what Drummond and Davis are doing is off the charts.

But never fails, it's always a slew of Blazer fans that lose their mind when you level the playing field. I don't think there is a person on this board that doesn't like Lillard. Unless we are talking defense, I think you would have a hard time searching the entire board for a disparaging remark towards Lillard.

As hard as this may be to believe, all of my posts aren't pointed towards the Blazers. I, just like most every Hornets fan right now, truly wishes Davis would see the minutes that Lillard gets to play. Davis is being held down to only about 27 minutes a game right now. Is it so outlandish to want him to play more than the other starters on the team?

At the end of the day, you can feel free to go through the entire thread. From the first time I posted a per 36 stat, Blazer fans have attacked me. That's not passive aggressive, that's just a stat. A very useful stat that for some reason has been very difficult to grasp in this thread for some reason, but that's a whole other issue.

Why so defensive, why so much name calling? If you really wanted to prop up Lillard, I would think it would be much easier than reverting to that.

[Smirk]

I stopped posting in the rookie threads a long time ago because the Blazers fans are literally obsessed. If you mention anyone but Lillard, they will probably track your IP, find you, and murder you. It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again...

[Brapman]

There's little question that the top two picks in a 2012 redraft would be Davis and Drummond.

After that, we're looking at a rookie class (including 2011 picks) that's free-for-all between Lillard, Beal, Waiters, Barnes, and MKG (I guess, but I'm not as high on him since I think he's a horrible shooter who won't get better). I put Lillard in this second very outstanding, but not superstars, group because I don't believe he'll ever be in Paul's or Irving's class.

Also, I very much like Henson, Nicholson, and Valanciunus, Sullinger, and Singler.

IMO, this is a loaded class of rookies, and I can see other rookies making a push to come into the conversation. In Detroit, for example, Middleton is just starting to play, and he is showing some real promise coming off a college knee surgery. There might well be some other players who become serious producers when they get their shot at PT.

[TheBigThree]

Dion's really turned the corner since the new calendar year. Hes finally finishing more at the rim, reeling in his ridiculous shot attempts, attacking the basket more often and is in general a lot more confident with his outside shot. His ability to to break down defenders and split double teams is absolutely killer. This Kyrie - Dion backcourt is gonna be fun to watch over the next couple years.

The most impressive thing to me is how good his ball handling is. He's often the primary ball handler when he's in the game.

Great to see two rookie SGs who are playing really solid basketball in different ways. Waiters is a slasher with good handles and a weak(er) shot, Beal is a shooter with great instincts and weak(er) handles.

Exciting for the NBA.

[King d]

There's little question that the top two picks in a 2012 redraft would be Davis and Drummond.

After that, we're looking at a rookie class (including 2011 picks) that's free-for-all between Lillard, Beal, Waiters, Barnes, and MKG (I guess, but I'm not as high on him since I think he's a horrible shooter who won't get better). I put Lillard in this second very outstanding, but not superstars, group because I don't believe he'll ever be in Paul's or Irving's class.

Also, I very much like Henson, Nicholson, and Valanciunus, Sullinger, and Singler.

IMO, this is a loaded class of rookies, and I can see other rookies making a push to come into the conversation. In Detroit, for example, Middleton is just starting to play, and he is showing some real promise coming off a college knee surgery. There might well be some other players who become serious producers when they get their shot at PT.

That's debatable

[Jon1798]

Waiters is starting to exceed my expectations right now. I said way back when that he struck me as a guy that would have numbers that would never truly reflect his impact on the game. A guy similar to Rudy Gay maybe. Where his efficiency on paper looks suspect, but his ability to penetrate and create are invaluable. Truth is, he has really upped his efficiency and even looks good on paper. Very exciting for a team that may have the best young PG in the league in Irving.

[King d]

And what are you even talking **** about? Davis was the number 1 pick for a reason. He may turn out to be better than Lillard and it wouldnt be such a big surprise. Why do u have to talk **** about what LIllard is doing like it makes you so jealous deep down inside.

you got baited

Haha. Hey, the Blazers have a lot of fans on here, I'll definitely give you guys that. And I stated way back in the thread, the majority of which have been really cool and actually tried to slow down the more agressive half of Blazer fans.

It's just so intriguing to me how violently the Blazer fans act regarding Lillard. It's so different from every other player and fans in the thread. All you have to say is "I wish my guy played the minutes Lillard receives" and it's...."why you have to talk ****, take his **** out of your mouth, you're a homer, etc etc.

Many are still physically incapable of coming into this thread and discussing any other rookies. It's wild.

For the....no way Davis has played as good as Lillard, it's not even close, crowd

Per 36:

Lillard-
17.11 ppg
6.08 assists
2.99 rebounds
.94 steals
2.81 TO
14.68 shots per 36
41.6% FG
34.4% 3P%
86.1% FT%

Davis-
16.32 ppg
9.71 rebounds
2.33 blocks
1.55 steals
1.17 assists
1.81 TO
13.21 shots per 36
50.8% FG
73.4% FT

Yes, Davis has played as good as Lillard.

Jared Cunningham per 36 stats

22.2 ppg
43%fg
66.7% 3pt
4.2 rpg
1.5 steals

Can we say he is a lock for the ROY and he has outplayed Davis (and Lillard) ?

See what I did here?

per 36 is one of the most useless stats in the nba

[DeBlazerRiddem]

I stopped posting in the rookie threads a long time ago because the Blazers fans are literally obsessed. If you mention anyone but Lillard, they will probably track your IP, find you, and murder you. It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again...

Things like this do nothing to help the discussion.

I for one have tried to be very fair and even temper some of the reactions of other Blazer fans. Personally, I think minutes earned is a huge metric with which to judge a how much a player has contributed. Per-minute stats give you a relative efficiency, but the higher minute player still has more to do with his team's success. Rookie of the year should go to the player that contributes the most to their team, so it is heavily minute dependent, and that is Lillard by a pretty wide margin. If someone feels a different metric is more important to ROY then that is a fine bias to have, I just disagree with it.

Again, me saying that Lillard has produced significantly more than other rookies is not disparaging other rookies. Just as another poster saying certain rookies per-minute efficiency means they have a higher ceiling is disparaging Lillard. So it pains me that everyone seems to get butt-hurt, although certain posters have been shamelessly baiting in how they word their posts.

[criteriado]

Jared Cunningham per 36 stats

22.2 ppg
43%fg
66.7% 3pt
4.2 rpg
1.5 steals

Can we say he is a lock for the ROY and he has outplayed Davis (and Lillard) ?

See what I did here?

per 36 is one of the most useless stats in the nba

Good lord. It's the same playing 3mpg during 8 games than 28 mpg on 44 games.

This is getting ridiculous with Blazers fans.

[criteriado]

I stopped posting in the rookie threads a long time ago because the Blazers fans are literally obsessed. If you mention anyone but Lillard, they will probably track your IP, find you, and murder you. It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again...

Things like this do nothing to help the discussion.

I for one have tried to be very fair and even temper some of the reactions of other Blazer fans. Personally, I think minutes earned is a huge metric with which to judge a how much a player has contributed. Per-minute stats give you a relative efficiency, but the higher minute player still has more to do with his team's success. Rookie of the year should go to the player that contributes the most to their team, so it is heavily minute dependent, and that is Lillard by a pretty wide margin. If someone feels a different metric is more important to ROY then that is a fine bias to have, I just disagree with it.

Again, me saying that Lillard has produced significantly more than other rookies is not disparaging other rookies. Just as another poster saying certain rookies per-minute efficiency means they have a higher ceiling is disparaging Lillard. So it pains me that everyone seems to get butt-hurt, although certain posters have been shamelessly baiting in how they word their posts.

Davis has produced more wins than Lillard.

EWA Davis= 5.4
EWA Lillard= 5.1

So....Davis is a better offensive player(PER), obviously is a better defender than lillard(like Irving last year he's pretty bad) and has produced more wins in less minutes. Who deserves ROY?

[The Sebastian Express]

The only thing getting ridiculous is some fans of other teams generalizing two or three Blazer fans as if they're the majority of Blazers fans. The hyperbole is doing literally nothing to help the situation.

A better judge for all the players in this class and their respective ceilings and impact is their second season. Where players have a summer to learn from constant film study, implementing new elements in their games, and adjusting to coverage. Using per 36 has its purposes, tells some stories (though I can't recall anyone here being so accepting when Oden's per 36 were pointed out, and he was instead derided with doubts and comments about how only actually playing 36 minutes a game meant anything), but it doesn't tell every story; like, how much defensive attention the other team is paying to a particular rookie. Lillard certainly has things to improve upon over the summer, and one can easily argue perhaps his ceiling is not as high as Drummond or Davis. I, on the other hand, can argue that they have not seen nearly the defensive attention that has been paid to Lillard, and that is certainly a factor.

So perhaps we should all wait until next year, to see what kind of leaps and bounds, adjustments (both offensive and defensive), and new arsenal and efficiency added to a player's game before we declare who has or has not reached a ceiling, or if it is very low or very high.

In the meantime, perhaps also some people can learn to stop making broad generalizations for the purpose of hyperbole and dramatics, and learn about the ignore button for two or three people they may find irritating.

[Jon1798]

The only thing getting ridiculous is some fans of other teams generalizing two or three Blazer fans as if they're the majority of Blazers fans. The hyperbole is doing literally nothing to help the situation.

A better judge for all the players in this class and their respective ceilings and impact is their second season. Where players have a summer to learn from constant film study, implementing new elements in their games, and adjusting to coverage. Using per 36 has its purposes, tells some stories (though I can't recall anyone here being so accepting when Oden's per 36 were pointed out, and he was instead derided with doubts and comments about how only actually playing 36 minutes a game meant anything), but it doesn't tell every story; like, how much defensive attention the other team is paying to a particular rookie. Lillard certainly has things to improve upon over the summer, and one can easily argue perhaps his ceiling is not as high as Drummond or Davis. I, on the other hand, can argue that they have not seen nearly the defensive attention that has been paid to Lillard, and that is certainly a factor.

So perhaps we should all wait until next year, to see what kind of leaps and bounds, adjustments (both offensive and defensive), and new arsenal and efficiency added to a player's game before we declare who has or has not reached a ceiling, or if it is very low or very high.

In the meantime, perhaps also some people can learn to stop making broad generalizations for the purpose of hyperbole and dramatics, and learn about the ignore button for two or three people they may find irritating.

I have tried to make a point on more than one occassion to state that many of the Blazer fans have been very cool, and actually calling out their own on more than one occassion. Can't disagree with anything you said really.

Only thing I would point out basketball wise is I tend to cringe every time I see the "more defensive attention" argument. As if Anthony Davis, Drummond, etc aren't getting heavy attention, and that Lillard isn't benefitting from playing with Mathews, Batum, Aldridge and Hickson. It just always comes across like Lillard is trying to play 1 on 5. We've talked about it before, but every NBA team tries to figure out what you're good at and they take it away. Davis has been pushed off the block, run off his shot, they droop on the pick and roll to avoid the lob, they double down on him, they try to get physical with him. All NBA teams are trying to keep the ball out of the hands of all of these guys. And none of them are succeeding which is why they are so good.

[whatchaknow]

The thing ill never understand is how people use mpg as a negative for some players. Lillard is playing a ridiculous amount of minutes for a rookie, you dont think that might have something to do with his shooting %s or his TO's? I mean rookies are supposed to hit a wall at some point and he should be more prone to one given his minutes yet he continues to impress.

I have tried to make a point on more than one occassion to state that many of the Blazer fans have been very cool, and actually calling out their own on more than one occassion. Can't disagree with anything you said really.

Only thing I would point out basketball wise is I tend to cringe every time I see the "more defensive attention" argument. As if Anthony Davis, Drummond, etc aren't getting heavy attention, and that Lillard isn't benefitting from playing with Mathews, Batum, Aldridge and Hickson. It just always comes across like Lillard is trying to play 1 on 5. We've talked about it before, but every NBA team tries to figure out what you're good at and they take it away. Davis has been pushed off the block, run off his shot, they droop on the pick and roll to avoid the lob, they double down on him, they try to get physical with him. All NBA teams are trying to keep the ball out of the hands of all of these guys. And none of them are succeeding which is why they are so good.

If you watch the Blazers you will notice that Lillard is the only legitimate ball handler that Portland has, and teams know this and know that if they can disrupt him they can kill the Blazers offense. In fact it has happened multiple times this year where they have forced guys like Batum and Matthews to try and create for themselves, at times it has worked and other it hasn't. Batum is a capable ball handler but is very loose with the ball, Matthews is a shot maker but he is nothing close to being considered a playmaker. Those guys definitely help Lillards assist numbers with their jump shooting there is no debating that, since both are fantastic shooters. What i find impressive is that he is still the Blazers 2nd option on offense (and come 4th quarter generally the 1st) even considering the Blazers have more offensive firepower than the hornets/Pelicans, Pistons, Wizards etc. He has come in and earned the respect of those vets and they have no problem deferring to the guy.

I dont think i have seen one time a Blazer fan come in here and say that Lillard is going to be better than Davis (in fact i would bet 95% would take Davis over him) but it makes no sense to say that Davis or Drummond deserve ROY over him. Its not just Blazer fans saying this either, its coaches, analysts, players, media, fans etc. pretty much anyone that watches or plays NBA basketball has said Lillard is ROY. Except for people in here?? I know you want Davis to play more minutes but why drag Lillard into it? Why dont you just say that you wish Monty would play Davis 35 or 37 or 40 or how ever many minutes you want him to play? Or ask why he doesnt feature him in the offense more? Im sure there is a reason that he isnt playing the minutes you want, just like there is a reason Dame is playing the minutes he is. A lot has to do with the fact that Nolan Smith is not even in the same building as Ryan Anderson as a player (the alternatives to Lillard and Davis), the Hornets arent in a serious playoff race, and then that Lillard is just more vital to his teams success at this point. Theres nothing wrong with that, your rookie season doesnt make your career and we have seen that with many guys.

[Teen Girl Squad]

I stopped posting in the rookie threads a long time ago because the Blazers fans are literally obsessed. If you mention anyone but Lillard, they will probably track your IP, find you, and murder you. It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again...

Bill Simmons affectionately refers to Blazers fans as the "Portland Soccer Moms" for this exact reason. Many of them (obviously not all) are fiercely overly protective of their team/players, especially the young guys. This happens a lot in smaller markets with only one major sports franchise (its especially abundant in college football). Why Portland seems to be more vocal about it than others is anyone's guess.

[Shem]

Dime Magazine article on Damian Lillard:

http://dimemag.com/2013/02/the-great-da ... ver-story/

[DeBlazerRiddem]

I stopped posting in the rookie threads a long time ago because the Blazers fans are literally obsessed. If you mention anyone but Lillard, they will probably track your IP, find you, and murder you. It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again...

Bill Simmons affectionately refers to Blazers fans as the "Portland Soccer Moms" for this exact reason. Many of them (obviously not all) are fiercely overly protective of their team/players, especially the young guys. This happens a lot in smaller markets with only one major sports franchise (its especially abundant in college football). Why Portland seems to be more vocal about it than others is anyone's guess.

Jesus, this thread gets worse and worse.

People bait us by saying things like Lillard is going to have a below average career like Okafor, and then other people talk sh*t about us when we get defensive.

As whatchaknow pointed out, I have yet to see a serious portion of Blazer fans who are claiming Lillard will have a better career than Davis. Sure, we raise the counter that there is every chance Lillard has a good career and shouldn't be counted out - just as Cavalier fans think Waiters shouldn't be counted out, or Washington fans think Beal shouldn't be counted out or Piston fans think Drummond shouldn't be counted out. I am sure Charlotte fans (if they came here) would say MKG can be a top player from this class, and fans of Lamb still think he can be a superstar. But when Blazer fans say their guy can be a top tier player they get dog piled. Heck, even when a substantial portion of us say Lillard might not even be a top 3 player from this draft or a top 5 PG in general we get dog-piled - what gives?

I don't get it, this same stuff happens on the trade thread - people say stuff like Matthews is a scrub or that Hickson posts empty stats or that Aldridge is overrated or that Batum is terrible defender with no handles - and when Portland fans respond (as fans of any team would do) we get labeled as "soccer moms". Sometimes it just seems like we are the guys people love to hate, and sometimes its hard not to get defensive when that perception arises.

[Cigamodnalro]

Moe Harkless has, since the ASB, been on a bit of a tear. In his four games after the break:
15 pts, 6 boards vs. CHA
20 pts, 8 boards @ DAL
19 pts, 9 boards @ MEM
13 pts 5 boards vs. CLE
= Average of 16.8 ppg and 7.0 rpg on 49.2% FG%.



Also, just for fun:

Doug Collins Reportedly ‘Consumed’ With Tracking Moe Harkless

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/0 ... -harkless/

[DeBlazerRiddem]

I feel bad for Philly.

[Shem]

What's funny with all this gone, this article comes out:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-o ... -year-race

Here are some key points:

I don't know how else to put this. The Rookie of the Year race has sucked.

There's one player who's been great-not-phenomenal in Damian Lillard, but who is clearly and decidedly above everyone else, with very little competition. This in a year that featured one of the best draft classes in years. They can all certainly turn out over time, but the short-term results have not been rewarding.

Lillard's going to win the award, going away, because he's impressed scouts and writers, because he's established himself as the 1A to LaMarcus Aldridge, and because of the problems with the other candidates.

So we're left with a race that very much seems over with two months to go, despite a concerning curve for Lillard, due to a race that's been handicapped by injury and context. Lillard deserves it and it's not close, and he's had a remarkable season. It just hasn't been the phenomenal race we expected from a draft so well hyped.