NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[rapluva]

U can't play in ny... Sf...and toronto

[dhsilv2]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they made an exception for the playoffs if the Nets and Warriors were contenders. NY and CA are beacons of nonsensical actions.

haha there is no way the Bay Area will make exceptions for athletes because of the playoffs

And yes, beacons of nonsensical actions besides being the #1 and #3 states that contribute most to this countries GDP.

They definitely lucked out that all the rich people love the coasts.

There weren't states when people started settling these places and started established the educational infrastructure that drew in major corporations to these places...

[jackman]

Youtube videos, podcasts, twitters, etc are all being targeted for "misinformation" if they stray from the "vaccines are safe and effective!" narrative, as if anyone knows what the vaccine's impact will be in 3, 5, 7 or 10 years or as if the vaccine isn't losing efficacy by the day. The government and drug companies are constantly shilling the idea of boosters. 2 shots and then boosters every 5 months for an indefinite period of time. Does that sound like an "effective" vaccine to you?

Soon a year will pass since the first covid-19 shots have been administered - so far - safe and effective.

Your definition of effective is twisted.

Is there a threshold in long-term studies that will satisfy the requirements needed for you to change your mind? 3, 5, 7 or 10 years? From my discussion with you, it sounds like your minds already been set.

We all received Measles/Polio vaccines, when was the last time you got a booster for it? There is a reason the popular saying "we can put a man on the moon but can't cure the common cold" is accurate. Certain viruses mutate so rapidly and so often that no amount of vaccines will prevent the spread. That's why even the flu shot people take 1/2 times a year is has such low efficacy compared to other vaccines. Here's a link to the CDC site in which they list the effectiveness of the flu shot by year

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/effectiveness-studies.htm

As you can see it hovers around 40% effective. That is what the covid vaccine effectiveness is going to look like in a year. So you're asking people to take a shot every 6 months of a drug that is untested and has had zero long term trials to possibly give yourself 40% immunity to covid.

Flu shots are best estimates of the influenza viral strains that scientists believe will be the most dangerous/highest prevalence in a community/country. This is why flu shots are low effectiveness. There is much less emphasis to cure influenza because it's 1) less contagious and 2) less deadly. Influenza patients do not clog up ICUs and/or use up short-supplies of ventilators. It's not hard to believe that covid-19 vaccines will follow the same path and covid-19 booster shots are needed to combat the next viral strain threat.

There's an untruthful narrative that insists the unvaccinated are responsible for the mutations. That is far from the truth and there's zero evidence to support that. The virus will mutate regardless of vaccination because the viral load is present in both unvaxxed and vaxxed, the only difference is severity of symptoms. Mutation is natural and we aren't stopping it.

This I somewhat agree with - mutations will occur regardless of vaccinations. Similar to influenza. You stated it, unvaccinated will suffer more with symptoms and vaccinated will suffer less. This is supported by evidence.

There is there's something very unhealthy, inorganic and troubling going on in this country and it's right out of a dystopian sci-fi novel. The drug companies needed an emergency authorization to distribute their vaccines. The emergency authorization requires that there be no other suitable treatment for covid available. There was a huge media/political/social media campaign to discredit any and all other drugs or treatments in order to pave the way for the vaccines. Things like Ivermectin, HQC, Zinc, NAC, Monoclonal AB all have varying levels of effectiveness including other drugs. Drugs that have undergone extensive testing and usage for decades all over the world. (except mono therapy)


http://jja-contents.wdc-jp.com/pdf/JJA74/74-1-open/74-1_44-95.pdf
https://hcqmeta.com/
https://c19ivermectin.com/

If you click the last two links, there's a panel that says "select treatments" I implore you to read the studies and look at the results.
Ivermectin was used widely in India during the Delta variant outbreak and it has been given credit for severely slowing the death/case rate. Indian doctors and health officials have gone on record saying it was effective. Japan is currently using Ivermectin on patients as well and have gone on record saying it's been effective - their equivalent to the American Medical Association has said they are looking at Ivermectin as more effective than the Moderna vaccine.

Not all treatments are as effective as the vaccine or even recommended but we should not censor the discussion.

Vaccines and mandates are the main topic of discussion so stating your opinion on other theoretical treatments can be dangerous and start spreading misinformation.

India just dropped ivermectin and HQC from its official covid-19 treatments.

What you said about Japan is an example of spreading misinformation that may be dangerous. Japan refuted claims of using ivermectin, it is not an approved treatment/therapy for covid-19. ONE doctor said he had success with it and another suggests thorough clinical trials to seek more evidence. Please do not spread this as facts.

[AussieCeltic]

It’s kind of hard to know any negative side effects of the vaccine when literally anyone (including doctors) who speaks negatively toward it on social media gets censored or deleted. For example if you make an Instagram post about having a negative side effect you get banned.

It honestly blows my mind how 85% of people are okay with this.

Here’s a list of side effects observed in Canada.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccine-safety/#a3

The people that get fact checked on Facebook are called LIARS because they’re purposely spreading misinformation. Literally all the side effects of every vaccine have been published by the FDA and other regulatory bodies.

Oh liars?

Even posting something about natural immunity and how it’s better than the vaccine will get one banned. ALL doctors who speak out against the vaccine in the US will get their license stripped.

It actually blows me away how people can’t see through this.

Can you reference some of these Doctors for me please? The ones I’ve seen speak out about it aren’t even medical doctors.

My wife is a physiotherapist at a hospital and every single doctor/surgeon at the hospital is for the vaccines. Do you really think these medical professionals would put something in their own body that had a risk of making them sick or whatever you conspiracy theorists think will happen?

What are your qualifications, if you don’t mind me asking?

[seren]

Fine by me because getting more people vaccinated is a good thing. But just out of curiosity, why can’t the cities allow a daily test to substitute a vaccination? Too difficult to enforce?

Yeah i cant imagine the resources that would be needed to test all those people every night instead of just checking their documents. Last year there was a lot less fans going to games, this year i believe it will be full capacity. And then for every concert and other event, thats just a huge amount of effort just to placate people that dont want to get vaxxed. In the Bay Area, Wiggins is definitely an anomaly, basically everyone i know is vaxxed and masks are everywhere, even outside, just because its not that big of deal to people to do, not for compliance, but just to pull together and respect the community.

This is the other part of the equation some people don’t get. Here in New York City, we lived through the worse of pandemic. Vast majority of people are still worried to attend indoor events. Local governments are having these mandates in order to build the trust and bring people back.

[aboveAverage]

Also, the natural immunity argument is absolute BS. Natural immunity is the default when you have no vaccine and no treatment. It’s the do nothing plan. That’s about a 2% average death rate for Covid so far. What good is that natural immunity to those 2%? The vaccine will save most of those people’s lives if they get Covid. And also, it makes no difference whether you get the immunity “naturally” or through an effective vaccine. Your body doesn’t care. The underlying biology is the same. Your T cells are activated and respond to SARS-Cov2, your B cells produce high affinity antibodies against the viral proteins. This in turn protects you from serious disease. Secondly, studies have shown that the level of protection is even higher on average with vaccination compared to a mild case of Covid.

[Lunartic]

If the vaccine works as expected and it prevents the spread/reduces symptoms, then why aren't people content to let the unvaccinated players face the consequences alone? 70%+ of the population is vaccinated, the remaining 30ish percent clearly isn't interested and thus can reap what they sow.

NBA arenas require proof of vaccination or negative tests and NBA players aren't exactly rushing into the crowds and fighting the fans outside of a single incident.

Other than some rare example of someone that is allergic to vaccines, I can't imagine an unvaxxed player is putting anyone at risk assuming those at risk are vaccinated with a safe and effective vaccine. And that is compounded by the fact that a large swath of the 30% unvaccinated have already gotten and recovered from covid, many NBA players have - thus they have the same protection as someone that took the vaccine.

I suppose I just don't see the risk factor here if the vaccines do indeed work effectively. There has been a great effort by the media and government to tell us that breakthrough cases are exceedingly rare and we need not worry about vaxxed spreading covid.


Additionally, a common argument is that ICU beds will dwindle if everyone isn't vaccinated. Question, if we could guarantee we had enough ICU beds and resources, would you agree to removing all covid restrictions and vaccine requirements?

Hospital congestion and unnecessary death seem like pretty good reasons to me.

So your opinion is to use public pressure/coercion to get people that have made a decision to not be vaccinated to be vaccinated?

At what point do you draw a line? At this point it's a personal decision - do you think the govt should have input into dangerous personal decisions? If a guy wants to eat 19 burgers a day and never workout, he's unnecessarily increasing his risk of death/hospitalization. If a school teacher decides to join the military, he increased his risk of death significantly (unless you're a Chicago public school teacher)

If the vaccine works and 99% of new cases are just unvaxxed people, it's not about contagiousness anymore. It's about deciding for oneself the risk they will endure, which coincidentally is how the world has almost always been.

Show me a few examples of someone not receiving emergency care because of a lack of hospital resources (due to unvaxxed covid patients taking up resources) This boogeyman is constantly touted but there's no real evidence. Hospitals routinely work at or near max capacity for profit reasons. It doesn't benefit them to have empty beds and doctors/nurses sitting around.

And okay say you're right and the stress on healthcare resources is the issue - if we could guarantee we had enough ICU beds/staff to ensure no one would go without care, would you still insist people take the vaccine/would you be in favor of lifting all restrictions?

[ShootersShoot]

Lol nice try.

The league would be more than fine without Irving, MPJ, Wiggins, Burke and the other around 35 player

Yep. There is also the nonsense assumption that vaccinated players are neutral parties here. Players, coaches, refs, other staff and their families all have stake in this. I am pretty sure a significant amount of them are as worried about Covid as the rest of the society and are not interested in risking getting Covid from unvaccinated players. They are well capable of understanding these dudes but also what Karl Anthony Towns and his family went through.

Why should a vaccinated person be afraid or worried about an unvaccinated person? That makes no sense and means the vaccine is pointless. The logic is all over the place with this thing. It's become more about I believe in this so I want you to do it too.

1) Variants can develop

2) Children and folks that have actual medical reasons keeping them from getting the vaccine are unprotected

3) People who are unvaccinated and end up in the hospital for covid take up important medical resources (nurses/physicians, hospital beds, etc). Medical professionals are already stretched thin and burnt out.

4) Unvaccinated people may have family members that depend on them. I'm worried about kids that lose their parents, or people that can no longer afford their mortgage or rent if their partners/spouses pass away, rack up huge hospital bills, or are unable to work for an extended period of time.

If there were no vaccines, all of these concerns would be exponentially worse. I work at a hospital and our number of covid patients reduced by over 90% within the first month of it becoming available to the public. Its one thing to not want the vaccine for whatever reason, its another to believe that it is not a good thing or pointless. Those that do are straight up foolish or ignorant. I was seeing it first-hand, and the situation prior to its existence was getting dire. The vaccine was a godsend.

[TheAlanParsons]

I can't wait until the people who have gotten 2 vax doses, vs 3 doses, vs 4 doses, etc start turning on each other once these crappy states start mandating booster shots, and your free papers expire if you're not up to date on the latest booster. Meanwhile these bio corporations are laughing all the way to the bank.

[JujitsuFlip]

There have been vaccine mandates for over 200 years, starting with George Washington ordering all troops to be inoculated against smallpox.

When has anyone's livelihood been threatened or in this case millions of dollars in pay being withheld if they didn't get the shot?

The city says you can’t be in the arena if you are not vaccinated. The NBA says you will not get paid for services you did not render. Simple as that.

Has there ever been a case where people refuse to pay money for nothing? Yes, absolutely. Millions, billions, trillions or mere dollars. It happens all the time. Just today I didn’t get a million dollar paycheck from the NBA.

Unless you are a visiting player, then it is perfectly fine to be unvaccinated and in the arena...

[Lunartic]

Soon a year will pass since the first covid-19 shots have been administered - so far - safe and effective.

Your definition of effective is twisted.

Is there a threshold in long-term studies that will satisfy the requirements needed for you to change your mind? 3, 5, 7 or 10 years? From my discussion with you, it sounds like your minds already been set.

Safe by what metric? VAERS data is available, have you taken a look at it? There have been tens of thousands of adverse reactions. We still do not have long term data, that doesn't mean 1 year or 3 or 4. Long term refers to 10 years or more. No amount of repeating the "safe and effective" mantra will materialize long term data. Only time can do that.

Flu shots are best estimates of the influenza viral strains that scientists believe will be the most dangerous/highest prevalence in a community/country. This is why flu shots are low effectiveness. There is much less emphasis to cure influenza because it's 1) less contagious and 2) less deadly. Influenza patients do not clog up ICUs and/or use up short-supplies of ventilators. It's not hard to believe that covid-19 vaccines will follow the same path and covid-19 booster shots are needed to combat the next viral strain threat.

In 2017, the flu killed over 60,000 Americans and hospitalized 600,000 and that's under reported. Your opinion is that if we paid more attention to the flu we would develop a vaccine that will save more lives? That's a pretty interesting take - the govt has the power and ability to save 60k Americans but not the desire. Seems very benevolent.

The flu does indeed use ICUs, where are you getting your data? 600,000 hospitalizations from the flu in 2017. Hundreds of thousands of hospitalizations every single year. We don't have a short supply of ventilators and those have been discontinued in their usage for the most part.

And of course it's not hard to believe these vaccines will require boosters, they are shilling them on people not 1 year after the first vaccine. It's not going well.

This I somewhat agree with - mutations will occur regardless of vaccinations. Similar to influenza. You stated it, unvaccinated will suffer more with symptoms and vaccinated will suffer less. This is supported by evidence.

Which means more and more shots. As the virus mutates it becomes less deadly.

India just dropped ivermectin and HQC from its official covid-19 treatments.

After using it for the better part of a year and multiple studies published indicating it's usefulness. Again, I'm not some ivermectin shill, if it is less effective than a vaccine that's fine, always do what works. I have a problem with constantly claiming everything is "dangerous" "disinformation" just because it doesn't fit the media curated narrative.

Read up on those links I provided if you're interested, the studies are easy to understand.

What you said about Japan is an example of spreading misinformation that may be dangerous.

Yes yes, everything is dangerous except an emergency authorized drug.

Japan refuted claims of using ivermectin, it is not an approved treatment/therapy for covid-19. ONE doctor said he had success with it and another suggests thorough clinical trials to seek more evidence. Please do not spread this as facts

Read. the. studies.

I love how if a person has cancer or whatever, everyone is encouraged to discuss treatment plans, some radical, some conservative, some holistic, etc. It encourages ideas and ultimately helps the patient. Suddenly, with this one specific virus, all talk of any other medication or treatment is "dangerous" even the just the mere consideration is labelled as dangerous.

[Johnny Bball]

Imagine being so pig-headed you decided this was the better solution than being vaccinated... and not being paid for some games...good luck with that.

The only time vaccinated players and Tier 1 personnel will have to be tested is when they are symptomatic, are a close contact of someone who tests positive for COVID-19 or a team medical staff member of league physician requires it.

Meanwhile, unvaccinated players must undergo daily testing prior to entering a team facility, participating in team-organized activities or interacting with other players and Tier 1 personnel. They will also have to undergo lab-based game day testing, as they did last season.

Unvaccinated players will also have to live under a strict set of rules similar to the ones that governed their movements last season. Those include: being prohibited from dining indoors in the same room at the same time as any other player or Tier 1 personnel; required to maintain at least six feet of distance from any other person (and required to wear a face mask at all times); required to maintain at least six feet of distance during treatment sessions from any other player also receiving treatment at the same time (and required to wear a face mask at all times); and required to be given a locker that is as distant from other players as possible and not next to another non-fully vaccinated player.

Teams have also been instructed to have their seating arrangements prevent players that aren't fully vaccinated from sitting together.

Unvaccinated players are required to remain at their residence during home games and at the team hotel for road contests. The only exceptions are for team and essential activities, such as buying groceries or taking their children to school. They are not allowed to go to any restaurants, bars, clubs, entertainment venues or large indoor gatherings, and can only have in-person interactions with non-family members with a "limited number of close personal guests" who have to be tested beforehand.

Fully vaccinated players will also not have to quarantine at all if they are a close contact, unless there are "unusual circumstances," though they will usually have to go through daily rapid testing for the next seven days.

Unvaccinated players, meanwhile, will be required to quarantine for seven days no matter what.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32301923/in-memo-teams-nba-crafts-protocols-requiring-unvaccinated-players-many-same-restrictions-rest-league

[13th Man]

Imagine being so pig-headed you decided this was the better solution than being vaccinated... and not being paid for some games...good luck with that.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32301923/in-memo-teams-nba-crafts-protocols-requiring-unvaccinated-players-many-same-restrictions-rest-league

It's their life and decision. Why do you feel the need to control them so badly? Nobody gives a **** what you do with the vaccine, honestly nobody. If you want to take on the risk, then take personal accountability for it, nobody else owes you ****.

[xdrta+]

Is there a player that has gotten the exemption. I can not believe there is not 1 player who has a religious specialty that doesn't comply with the vaccine.

Of the major religions in the US only the Church of Christ, Scientist (known as "Christian Scientists") oppose vaccines, and there are less than 50,000 of them in the country. Do you know of any others? Although in some parts of the world Islam discourages vaccines, in the US it is openly encouraged. I doubt there is a single player who has a legitimate claim to a religious exemption.

[dhsilv2]

Is there a player that has gotten the exemption. I can not believe there is not 1 player who has a religious specialty that doesn't comply with the vaccine.

Of the major religions in the US only the Church of Christ, Scientist (known as "Christian Scientists") oppose vaccines, and there are less than 50,000 of them in the country. Do you know of any others? Although in some parts of the world Islam discourages vaccines, in the US it is openly encouraged. I doubt there is a single player who has a legitimate claim to a religious exemption.

Dutch Reformed Church which has about 200k members, still rather small.

[13th Man]

Norway reclassifies Covid-19 disease. It is no more dangerous than the common flu

https://www.world-today-news.com/norway-reclassifies-covid-19-disease-it-is-no-more-dangerous-than-the-common-flu/

The Norwegian Institute of Public Health (FHI) classifies Covid-19 disease as respiratory, as dangerous as the common flu. On the other hand, it clarifies that the pandemic is not over, but has entered a new phase – Covid-19 is now the equivalent of a common respiratory disease, such as the flu or a respiratory infection – due to several factors: the mutations that they suffered from SARS-Cov-2, which makes it less dangerous, the natural and vaccine-induced immunity that Norwegian society has achieved.

Strike: De-railing/Misinformation

[ShootersShoot]

Norway reclassifies Covid-19 disease. It is no more dangerous than the common flu

https://www.world-today-news.com/norway-reclassifies-covid-19-disease-it-is-no-more-dangerous-than-the-common-flu/

The Norwegian Institute of Public Health (FHI) classifies Covid-19 disease as respiratory, as dangerous as the common flu. On the other hand, it clarifies that the pandemic is not over, but has entered a new phase – Covid-19 is now the equivalent of a common respiratory disease, such as the flu or a respiratory infection – due to several factors: the mutations that they suffered from SARS-Cov-2, which makes it less dangerous, the natural and vaccine-induced immunity that Norwegian society has achieved.

"Vaccine-induced immunity" ...meaning it works!

[Dirk]

Norway reclassifies Covid-19 disease. It is no more dangerous than the common flu

https://www.world-today-news.com/norway-reclassifies-covid-19-disease-it-is-no-more-dangerous-than-the-common-flu/

The Norwegian Institute of Public Health (FHI) classifies Covid-19 disease as respiratory, as dangerous as the common flu. On the other hand, it clarifies that the pandemic is not over, but has entered a new phase – Covid-19 is now the equivalent of a common respiratory disease, such as the flu or a respiratory infection – due to several factors: the mutations that they suffered from SARS-Cov-2, which makes it less dangerous, the natural and vaccine-induced immunity that Norwegian society has achieved.

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-norway-reclassify-covid-flu-dangerous-niph-fhi-geir-bukholm-1633926

The Norwegian Institute of Public Health (NIPH/FHI) told Newsweek these claims are not true. It appears that the claims were sparked by comments made by Geir Bukholm, assistant director of the NIPH, in an interview with Norwegian media outlet VG.

In it, VG reported, translated from Norwegian: "We are now in a new phase where we must look at the coronavirus as one of several respiratory diseases with seasonal variation, says assistant director Geir Bukholm in FHI to VG."

Another part of the report read: "The coronavirus thus joins the ranks of other respiratory diseases such as colds and seasonal flu."

Newsweek contacted the NIPH for clarification over exactly what this means.

A representative for the health body said: "It is not correct that the Norwegian Institute of Public Health has claimed that 'COVID-19 is no more dangerous than ordinary flu.' This statement is probably a misinterpretation of this interview in [VG].

"Our position, as stated in the news article, is that at this point in the pandemic we must start approaching COVID-19 as one of several respiratory diseases circulating with seasonal variation.

"This means that the control measures that will be applicable for various respiratory diseases will require the same level of societal preparedness. This does not mean that illness from coronavirus and the seasonal flu are similar."

[jackman]

Hospital congestion and unnecessary death seem like pretty good reasons to me.

So your opinion is to use public pressure/coercion to get people that have made a decision to not be vaccinated to be vaccinated?

At what point do you draw a line? At this point it's a personal decision - do you think the govt should have input into dangerous personal decisions? If a guy wants to eat 19 burgers a day and never workout, he's unnecessarily increasing his risk of death/hospitalization. If a school teacher decides to join the military, he increased his risk of death significantly (unless you're a Chicago public school teacher)

It's a personal decision to be vaccinated or not, but the risks are not only endured personally. Inaction can quite literally affect loved ones like family and friends.

If the vaccine works and 99% of new cases are just unvaxxed people, it's not about contagiousness anymore. It's about deciding for oneself the risk they will endure, which coincidentally is how the world has almost always been.

Show me a few examples of someone not receiving emergency care because of a lack of hospital resources (due to unvaxxed covid patients taking up resources) This boogeyman is constantly touted but there's no real evidence. Hospitals routinely work at or near max capacity for profit reasons. It doesn't benefit them to have empty beds and doctors/nurses sitting around.

Lack of hospital resources happen by levels - it's not clear cut. For example, ICU capacity is 100% - 1st line of measure is to make surge beds available and temporarily increase beds available as ICU requires. 2nd line may be cancelling elective surgeries because theres no resources left for elective type patients. 3rd line may be transferring out non-covid patients to other facilities to make room for covid patients. Etc Etc..the effects are felt hospital wide. Varying degrees and impact depending on what stage of a covid surge a particular hospital is at.

[xdrta+]

Was it the NBA that declined it or San Fran?

The NBA declined the religious exemption, but did so after SF determined there would be no non-medical exceptions to their rules already

Do you have a link on that? Thanks

“Under the current order, if unvaccinated, they cannot enter indoor areas regardless of the reason they are unvaccinated and cannot test out of this requirement even if they have a medical or religious exemption,” the San Francisco Department of Public Health said in a statement to this news organization. “This same rule applies to performers and players employed by the host at large and mega indoor events who are covered by the vaccination requirements of the Health Order.”

https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09/24/sf-health-officials-exemption-wont-allow-warriors-wiggins-to-play-if-unvaccinated/

In other words, even if the NBA gave Wiggins a religious exemption, the city wasn't having it.