2021-22 NBA Rookie Thread (part 6) - with ROY poll

[chilluminati]

I'm drunk off this fine wine that we call Cade Cunningham. He is hope incarnate for Detroit. We've been stuck in mediocrity due to terrible decisions ever since Nov 3rd, 2008, which was a day where I sat on the internet for hours trying so hard to get my peers to suck down as much copium as I was.

Every decision since then, I had to try and defend idiocy. Joe D constantly trying to recreate the 2004 team, making molds of it with Ben Gordon and Charlie V, and drafting Austin Daye. Not being able to accept rebuilding has been this teams hubris for 14 years, which led to the extreme-o-flex bad decisions such as signing Josh Smith when we already had 2 non shooting bigs. Or Trading effing Tobias Harris for 1 year of Blake Griffin (that whole time period was so effing pointless).

Drafting players who could be good, but not giving them a chance to play or develop due to our penchant of giving vets minutes when we clearly should be rebuilding. See Spender Dinwiddie, Khris Middleton, Bruce Brown. (And I'm not even going to get into the players we passed up in our drafts, the list is long and exhausting).

Outside of not being a fan our of coach, we're finally on the right path. Who'da thunk playing our draft picks would help them devlop! Cade the the beginning of a new chapter for Detroit, as long as we keep this up.

We're 2nd from the bottom in the east and I couldn't be more excited.

[Slim Charlez]

I think its opposite where casual fans would see it as more of a problem just stat watching.

Anybody who watches him leaves pretty impressed after at how advanced he is at his age as the #1 guy on his squad. He has a arsenal of moves as a 3 level scorer who commands alot of attention from defenses. Plus he also plays hard on defense all game.

His defence is quite good and he tries hard. But his red flag going into the league was he can't shoot. And he still can't shoot. 28% from 3 is not a three level scorer lol. 28% from 3 on 6 attempts per game is dumb. Look a little closer at his stats and he is basically a lite-Russell Westbrook on offense at this point. He has a ton of potential, but he is not good at this point.

what?
that was literally seen as one his elite strengths coming into the NBA, he shot 40% from 3 in college on high volume.
Then he shot 50% from 3 in a few summer league games, got injured, missed all of training camp, preseason and the start of the regular season and came back with rusty shooting.

After the 1st month of the season (so since december) he's shooting 35% from 3 on 2 3pm per game and over 200 attempts. This is all while having a very high usage as a rookie. If he was being used as just a spot up shooter, that percentage would probably rise.

Also I've never heard of a player who "can't shoot" be an 85% ft shooter as a rookie

Dude is clutching at straws. Next he'll say Cade is small for his position or something equally ludicrous as him not being able to shoot when his form and FT shooting says it has more to do with him doing what rookie guards and wings do which is take bad shots.

[everdiso]

checkout the difference in defensive matchups:

Read on Twitter

[Rapcity_11]

Not worried about Cade's shooting. Slightly worried about 2.7 FTA per 36. That's really low for a high usage player.

[Madhouse]

Right and if you read my posts that is exactly what I say. Everyone just wanting to post without reading. You and I agree. To be honest, I think I agree with most posters on here, just many of them are not able to read or have just pretty bad comprehension skills. Maybe my fault for giving some people too much credit. There is a difference between current level and potential, as you said (and as I said like 11 times now). Did you watch Cade in college?

I don't think the issue is anyone's reading comprehension skills. I think everyone is quote replying you because it's plain as day that you haven't watched many games in which Cade has played.

When you do, it will become obvious how much he controls the tempo of the offense, gets to wherever he wants to on the court, sets up so much for his teammates, and how much of a beast he has been in the clutch. But if you're just going to wade into this thread to quote eFG% and make ridiculous comparisons, then most people aren't going to put much stock in your opinion.

So just to clarify, are you saying he is a good shooter? Or not. Because my claim is he is not a good shooter. Obviously he isn't. You agreed with me by omission with a long winded post totally ignoring shooting.

You might think Cade Cunningham but you are describing Jalen Suggs. He is the only terrible shooter.

[tdotrep2]

one thing that i expect to explod with scottie is his assists, he has no shooting around him and the only time he has some shooting around him he's a fifth option. Once hes more of a focal point and gets some spacing i expect him to average 6 assists a game which is bonkers

[holdenwait]

random reminder that Alperen is still only 19. his dunk against the lakers the other night where he had career high 21 pts 14 reb was a thing of beauty. can't wait to see him grow into his man body

[K_chile22]

random reminder that Alperen is still only 19. his dunk against the lakers the other night where he had career high 21 pts 14 reb was a thing of beauty. can't wait to see him grow into his man body

he's younger than Chet, which is weird to think about

[Mr Peanut]

Right and if you read my posts that is exactly what I say. Everyone just wanting to post without reading. You and I agree. To be honest, I think I agree with most posters on here, just many of them are not able to read or have just pretty bad comprehension skills. Maybe my fault for giving some people too much credit. There is a difference between current level and potential, as you said (and as I said like 11 times now). Did you watch Cade in college?

I don't think the issue is anyone's reading comprehension skills. I think everyone is quote replying you because it's plain as day that you haven't watched many games in which Cade has played.

When you do, it will become obvious how much he controls the tempo of the offense, gets to wherever he wants to on the court, sets up so much for his teammates, and how much of a beast he has been in the clutch. But if you're just going to wade into this thread to quote eFG% and make ridiculous comparisons, then most people aren't going to put much stock in your opinion.

So just to clarify, are you saying he is a good shooter? Or not. Because my claim is he is not a good shooter. Obviously he isn't. You agreed with me by omission with a long winded post totally ignoring shooting.

Post All-Star break 22.3 pts 7.5 rebs 6.0 asts 0.5 stls 0.6 blks .444 FG% .288 3pt% .850 FT% in 35.8 mpg 5-5 W/L

This guy is not good. He has a ton of potential, but he is not good.

Let's not try backtrack on our opinions here. You clearly stated Cade is not good. Yes, you used shooting to justify your argument. But you were talking about him in general.

I think for a rookie his shooting is where I would expect it to be. He had a horrible start to the season which skews the season stats somewhat, but much improved since. And I believe his shooting mechanics make it seem likely that he is going to be at least a 45% FG 36% 3PT type shooter in the future, with the potential to be even better depending on his growth.

[LoveMyRaps]

checkout the difference in defensive matchups:

Read on Twitter

Damn how you let Kuzma school you?

All jokes aside, this graphic is very telling.

[JackTalkThai]

List of rookies to average 17/6/5 since the 3pt era:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Grant Hill
Luka Doncic

Cunningham’s current averages:
16.9 ppg
5.9 rpg
5.3 apg

People are really missing the boat with having Barnes and Mobley ahead of Cunningham. Mobley should probably be 1st team All Defense but the NBA has ALWAYS placed more weight on offensive production with ROTY, All-NBA and Playoff MVP awards…and for good reason. The NBA is an offensive showcase league.

[Madhouse]

List of rookies to average 17/6/5 since the 3pt era:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Grant Hill
Luka Doncic

Cunningham’s current averages:
16.9 ppg
5.9 rpg
5.3 apg

People are really missing the boat with having Barnes and Mobley ahead of Cunningham. Mobley should probably be 1st team All Defense but the NBA has ALWAYS placed more weight on offensive production with ROTY, All-NBA and Playoff MVP awards…and for good reason. The NBA is an offensive showcase league.

Not really, it's all about usage.

Barnes averaged 5+ assists without VanVleet in the lineup and 18 PPG without Siakam in the lineup. He could put up massive volume stats on a rebuilding team.

It's a really bad argument why someone is supposed to be better.

[Tripod]

checkout the difference in defensive matchups:

Read on Twitter

That's a massive difference in quality. Barnes has had it so much harder.

[Got Nuffin]

one thing that i expect to explod with scottie is his assists, he has no shooting around him and the only time he has some shooting around him he's a fifth option. Once hes more of a focal point and gets some spacing i expect him to average 6 assists a game which is bonkers

Not sure if Nurse plans to play him at PG more often or not once Toronto is healthy, but he looked comfortable in that role. Regardless of that, I think in his 2nd or maybe 3rd season when teams start double teaming him - that's when his assists will really ramp up. He has the IQ and passing savvy already. He's the kind of player who will make everyone around him better as he refines his scoring game.

[reanimator]

List of rookies to average 17/6/5 since the 3pt era:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Grant Hill
Luka Doncic

Cunningham’s current averages:
16.9 ppg
5.9 rpg
5.3 apg

People are really missing the boat with having Barnes and Mobley ahead of Cunningham. Mobley should probably be 1st team All Defense but the NBA has ALWAYS placed more weight on offensive production with ROTY, All-NBA and Playoff MVP awards…and for good reason. The NBA is an offensive showcase league.

Not really, it's all about usage.

Barnes averaged 5+ assists without VanVleet in the lineup and 18 PPG without Siakam in the lineup. He could put up massive volume stats on a rebuilding team.

It's a really bad argument why someone is supposed to be better.

Isn't that why we have ast% ? Someone like Haliburton had Barnes like usage on the Kings but a Cade like ast%

[dc]

It's not that important a thing in the grand scheme of things, but has anyone tallied how many rookies from this draft class have had a 20 point scoring game?

I think Trey Murphy III has been the latest to do it. I know nobody keeps track of it, but I'm convinced that I've never seen a rookie class with so many players who have dropped a 20 point game in their first season.

I think Josh Primo is the only guy from the lottery not to have a 20 point game, and I think he's come close. Getting past the lottery, guys like Sengun, Hyland, Josh Christopher, Kispert, Herb Jones, Donsomnu and even late 2nd rounder Brandon Boston have had 20 point games. And I'm probably missing a couple guys.

Just an incredibly productive rookie class.

[Madhouse]

List of rookies to average 17/6/5 since the 3pt era:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Grant Hill
Luka Doncic

Cunningham’s current averages:
16.9 ppg
5.9 rpg
5.3 apg

People are really missing the boat with having Barnes and Mobley ahead of Cunningham. Mobley should probably be 1st team All Defense but the NBA has ALWAYS placed more weight on offensive production with ROTY, All-NBA and Playoff MVP awards…and for good reason. The NBA is an offensive showcase league.

Not really, it's all about usage.

Barnes averaged 5+ assists without VanVleet in the lineup and 18 PPG without Siakam in the lineup. He could put up massive volume stats on a rebuilding team.

It's a really bad argument why someone is supposed to be better.

Isn't that why we have ast% ? Someone like Haliburton had Barnes like usage on the Kings but a Cade like ast%

Not necessarily because you might be reluctant to make the same passes in a different role, Barnes has a much higher tendency to just hand the ball off to VanVleet or Siakam in a full lineup.

Barnes has a 13% AST with a PG in the lineup and 24% AST without a PG in the lineup. It's a matter of responsibilities to me.

[reanimator]

Not really, it's all about usage.

Barnes averaged 5+ assists without VanVleet in the lineup and 18 PPG without Siakam in the lineup. He could put up massive volume stats on a rebuilding team.

It's a really bad argument why someone is supposed to be better.

Isn't that why we have ast% ? Someone like Haliburton had Barnes like usage on the Kings but a Cade like ast%

Not necessarily because you might be reluctant to make the same passes in a different role, Barnes has a much higher tendency to just hand the ball off to VanVleet or Siakam in a full lineup.

Barnes has a 13% AST with a PG in the lineup and 24% AST without a PG in the lineup. It's a matter of responsibilities to me.

Fair but also could be a product of sample size. I would say its case by case thing since you can find players at varying usages with varying assist rates.

[Tripod]

Wonder how many assist/game Barnes has in the 13 games that FVV has missed. Noticeable uptick?

[ForeverTFC]

List of rookies to average 17/6/5 since the 3pt era:

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Grant Hill
Luka Doncic

Cunningham’s current averages:
16.9 ppg
5.9 rpg
5.3 apg

People are really missing the boat with having Barnes and Mobley ahead of Cunningham. Mobley should probably be 1st team All Defense but the NBA has ALWAYS placed more weight on offensive production with ROTY, All-NBA and Playoff MVP awards…and for good reason. The NBA is an offensive showcase league.

Did I miss the memo to pump up Cade as a superstar or something?

Cade has the 19th highest usage of any rookie all time (min 2000 mins played). Among this group, he has the 2nd worst FG% while in the top 20 for FGs attempted and as a result has one of the lowest point totals. Cade wouldn't get this usage on most other teams in the league - definitely not on Cleveland or Toronto.