Nikola Jokic wins MVP(again)

[AleksandarN]

Bunch of advanced stats media nerds, who most probably haven't touched a basketball in their life? It's telling that many current and former players think Embiid was the MVP.

Mhmm so you need to have been a former NBA player to understand the game right? That’s why all the coaches and GMs in the league are former players right?

It's actually one of the biggest issues in the league. A league that is predominantly black, with a minority of black coaches, and a minority of former players.

The ugly truth is, that white owners, prefer college educated white coaches.

So it is race now that jokic won the mvp? That is a pathetic take to have.

[eyeatoma]

Let's also talk about precedent. When was the last time that an NBA MVP, did worse record wise but still won the MVP? In a season where there was another candidate who had a better record, and hadn't won the MVP, did the media really have to go out of their way to say, OMG, for the love of humanity, Jokic needs to get a 2nd MVP. Seriously?

Lebron in 2010. Before than Nash in 2006. Nash in 2006 was a pretty similar situation to Jokic's this year - his team had a significantly worse record than last season but the voters took into account that Amar'e missed all but 3 games due to an injury and that Joe Johnson left in the summer.

How was their seeding?

[Cubbies2120]

Jamal Murray basically will be 19 months removed from acl surgery (a normal 10-12 month recovery period) MPJ almost 12 months from back surgery (a normal 4-5 month recovery period). No excuses that Jokic has not help or that those guys are “just working themselves back from surgery”

Jokic deserves the regular season injury. But the narrative for a third mvp will be extremely difficult. Outside of Murray going nba bubble Murray. Jokic would be stuck with the same narrative as embiid in the playoffs. Second round exits.

The reality is embiid lost the mvp cause of the 9 games he missed due to Covid. Sixers went 2-7. He has been really healthy this season. Swing those games he missed. And embiid team record can easily swing to 54-55 games. Enough to convince voters.

And anyone thinking Harris was playing great. Harris stunk most of the year. Maxey played out of position. Half the sixers team out with Covid for 3 different stretches of the first half of the season with Covid. Embiid Carried them. And sixers record with or without harden was the same which all points to embiid being the main factor.

Sixers were 6-8 without Embiid, Nuggets 2-6 without Jokic. For all the criticism of Harris, Maxey and Harden, they are all significantly better than Gordon, Morris and Barton.

To add to that, the two teams that the Nuggets beat were:

5th worst team in the league
absolute worst team in the league

The Sixers beat teams like the Heat and Nuggets (ironically, beat the Nuggets with no Embiid, but lost with Embiid/Harden )

[Freighttrain]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Being a first-round exit team in back-to-back season as the back-to-back MVP is just tragic. We knew the Nuggets were bad, so why give it to Jokic? The argument he made that team is good is nonsense. They got a gentlemen's sweep in the first round. How is that any good? Congratz you're the 16th best team out of 32. He took a bad team and made them average. Any superstar can do that. Embiid is still in the playoffs and we see how big his impact is. "oh but he has a great supporting cast, Jokic doesn't". The Sixers were down 0-2 with that great cast until Embiid played again and now we're questioning Miami because of Embiid. Are we going to give him the MVP next year too if the analytics say he's as good a defender as Embiid? He had the highest PER or top 3 ever. Boy did that turn into playoff wins. Ugh.

I didn't mind him winning it the first time. But being a back-to-back MVP is special. Going out of the first round and pretending it's "just a regular-season award" is bogus. Other factors play a part too such as playoff success or narrative. Winning back to back should always lead to some success in the playoffs. At least make it out of the first round. It diminishes the MVP even more because people will barely remember what season he had because he didn't even make it past April. Or they will remember it because of that fact. It's just tragic.

[Bergmaniac]

Speaking of defense during the regular season, let's compare stats:

Embiid's defensive rating while on the court - 107.8
Jokic's defensive rating while on the court - 108.9

Pretty small difference. And it's not like Jokic was surrounded by great defenders who carried him on that, Gordon is the only really good defender in the Denver rotation and even he is not really elite on that end. Dozier, one of Denver's top defenders, missed pretty much the whole season. And Jokic played over 400 minutes together with the 5'10" past his athletic prime Campazzo.

[eyeatoma]

Lol salty Philadelphia beat-writer.

He is right. Jokic has anger management issues and can't be on the floor during key defensive plays, but hey advanced stats say he's an elite defender.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

How many people said Jokic was a elite defender? A minority if that. He is a good defender with physical limitations.

Lol, plenty of people have said he's an elite defender based on the stats, they might be saying it tongue in cheek, or to get other fans going, but it's not just a few. Additionally there are many who questioned Embiid's defense, and asked, is Embiid even a better defender than Jokic.

[greekbuck34]

Congratz to Jokic!
He was the best and most consistent regular season player this season. The gap between him and Embiid and Giannis was not that big but that's what made the race exciting this season in the end.

They have to stop giving the award so late in the post season though. They have to announce it midway the first round at the latest.
Nobody cares about regular season awards anymore. The neutral fans are enjoying the playoffs or are already in the off season mode and the rest only care about the playoffs. The award lose a lot of its value this way.

[Freighttrain]

Speaking of defense during the regular season, let's compare stats:

Embiid's defensive rating while on the court - 107.8
Jokic's defensive rating while on the court - 108.9

Pretty small difference. And it's not like Jokic was surrounded by great defenders who carried him on that, Gordon is the only really good defender in the Denver rotation and even he is not really elite on that end. Dozier, one of Denver's top defenders, missed pretty much the whole season. And Jokic played over 400 minutes together with the 5'10" past his athletic prime Campazzo.

This is what happens when you look at analytics and you don't watch games.

[rapstarter]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Being a first-round exit team in back-to-back season as the back-to-back MVP is just tragic. We knew the Nuggets were bad, so why give it to Jokic? The argument he made that team is good is nonsense. They got a gentlemen's sweep in the first round. How is that any good? Congratz you're the 16th best team out of 32. He took a bad team and made them average. Any superstar can do that. Embiid is still in the playoffs and we see how big his impact is. "oh but he has a great supporting cast, Jokic doesn't". The Sixers were down 0-2 with that great cast until Embiid played again and now we're questioning Miami because of Embiid. Are we going to give him the MVP next year too if the analytics say he's as good a defender as Embiid? He had the highest PER or top 3 ever. Boy did that turn into playoff wins. Ugh.

I didn't mind him winning it the first time. But being a back-to-back MVP is special. Going out of the first round and pretending it's "just a regular-season award" is bogus. Other factors play a part too such as playoff success or narrative. Winning back to back should always lead to some success in the playoffs. At least make it out of the first round. It diminishes the MVP even more because people will barely remember what season he had because he didn't even make it past April. Or they will remember it because of that fact. It's just tragic.

This makes my brain hurt. Embiid has better teammates and has faced worse opponents. You think he gets out of the first round if he played with Gordon and Barton and faced the Warriors?

[rapstarter]

I swear some Sixers fans (more likely Embiid fans) would rather have a **** team and have Embiid win the MVP than have a good supporting cast that helps them contend. And of course, we don't even know how successful his team would have been if its 2nd and 3rd best players were Gordon and Barton. It's already automatic 10 additional losses because Embiid misses more games.

[WarriorGM]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Actually

Jokic won 46 games in 2022
Embiid won 45 games in 2022
Giannis won 45 games in 2022

Jokic won more games than either Embiid or Giannis by 1 game. The difference in record for additional wins results from how each of their teammates played when those guys missed games.

Giving MVP based on wins means you either give it to Jokic or you give it to Embiid/Giannis based on games they never played in.

I guess the reason Curry isn't being mentioned here is that he has transcended MVP discussions and is MVP emeritus?

[Raps in 4]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Being a first-round exit team in back-to-back season as the back-to-back MVP is just tragic. We knew the Nuggets were bad, so why give it to Jokic? The argument he made that team is good is nonsense. They got a gentlemen's sweep in the first round. How is that any good? Congratz you're the 16th best team out of 32. He took a bad team and made them average. Any superstar can do that. Embiid is still in the playoffs and we see how big his impact is. "oh but he has a great supporting cast, Jokic doesn't". The Sixers were down 0-2 with that great cast until Embiid played again and now we're questioning Miami because of Embiid. Are we going to give him the MVP next year too if the analytics say he's as good a defender as Embiid? He had the highest PER or top 3 ever. Boy did that turn into playoff wins. Ugh.

I didn't mind him winning it the first time. But being a back-to-back MVP is special. Going out of the first round and pretending it's "just a regular-season award" is bogus. Other factors play a part too such as playoff success or narrative. Winning back to back should always lead to some success in the playoffs. At least make it out of the first round. It diminishes the MVP even more because people will barely remember what season he had because he didn't even make it past April. Or they will remember it because of that fact. It's just tragic.

Remind me, when was the last time Embiid played in the conference finals?

[Ayt]

I prefer his scoring dropping. He is elite defensively and keeps getting doubled teamed because we are playing teams that are undermanned to handle his physicality. Quick passes out of the double team and focusing on defense and rebounding is the better way to play for us to win games thus far.

Not that I should actually expect hot take artists on the GB to have a nuanced discussion about anything or actually watch games.

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

I personally think that you would rather have Embiid than Jokic on a playoff run but understand it's very much up for debate between Jokic Embiid Giannis. I also think that Embiid's defense should give him the edge IMO over Jokic, because Embiid plays at his DPOY at important times throughout the year, vs. Jokic's defensive improvement is again based off of some advanced defensive metrics that are laughable at best.

And if it's a total toss up, I wish it would've gone to the guy who hasn't won one before, and who has been through so much in his career with people doubting he would ever play more games than times he's tweeted, after he had a remarkably healthy season.

I'm fine with anybody winning it but it seems like this conversation was dominated by people caring too much about advanced stats, particularly by people who refuse to watch a game and admit that Embiid is a tier above Jokic defensively and instead fall back on some kind of bogus metrics that are widely accepted by NBA minds as not actually being predictive.

It is hilarious to me that you've somehow convinced yourself that this is true.

[BelgradeNugget]

I really don't understand all Embiid's and Giannis's fans arguing so hard for their favorites, when they had worst stats and won less games than Joker. Especially Embiid's fans. 4th in the east, he won 45 games, worst stats than Jokic, no argument. And you can see people crying on internet about robbery ect.
Now if Tatum's and Booker's fans come into conversation we could have a real argument because they have traditional arguments - best players on best teams. So please Bookers/Tatum fans come in here and make it a real discussion, enough of Embiid's fans trying to argue with no real arguments.

[Hobo4President]

"Advances stats are for nerds!"

Jokic was better than Embiid with the eye test and box score too.

[bearadonisdna]

[url]k[/url]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Being a first-round exit team in back-to-back season as the back-to-back MVP is just tragic. We knew the Nuggets were bad, so why give it to Jokic? The argument he made that team is good is nonsense. They got a gentlemen's sweep in the first round. How is that any good? Congratz you're the 16th best team out of 32. He took a bad team and made them average. Any superstar can do that. Embiid is still in the playoffs and we see how big his impact is. "oh but he has a great supporting cast, Jokic doesn't". The Sixers were down 0-2 with that great cast until Embiid played again and now we're questioning Miami because of Embiid. Are we going to give him the MVP next year too if the analytics say he's as good a defender as Embiid? He had the highest PER or top 3 ever. Boy did that turn into playoff wins. Ugh.

I didn't mind him winning it the first time. But being a back-to-back MVP is special. Going out of the first round and pretending it's "just a regular-season award" is bogus. Other factors play a part too such as playoff success or narrative. Winning back to back should always lead to some success in the playoffs. At least make it out of the first round. It diminishes the MVP even more because people will barely remember what season he had because he didn't even make it past April. Or they will remember it because of that fact. It's just tragic.

Absolutely.
people want to nit pick stats but he essentially just stat padding on a non contender.
Now everything runs through him exponentially more, higher usage, remedial results in win loss column.
Basically rewarded the best player on a treadmill team,. its disgraceful.

[HardenToSixers]

I actually agree with what you wrote. For the Sixers to reach their potential, Embiid needs to do less and get his teammates involved. I was just giving you s*** because you're in a Jokic thread talking s***, so please don't act like you're above poor takes. If you were as nuanced as you claim to be you would understand that Jokic doesn't have the luxury of being able to drop his scoring production. Embiid has 3 teammates averaging over 18 PPG in the playoffs, Jokic didn't have a single player behind him sniff 15 PPG. Not to mention that the Warriors are simply way better than Toronto and Miami. Acknowledge the context, mr. nuance.

I'm in a Jokic thread talking **** because I'm fairly confident that the only reason he won MVP is because some idiots convinced themselves that using BPM PER and VORP as a barometer for who is the best player is actually a good idea and a bunch of media members are running with it.

I personally think that you would rather have Embiid than Jokic on a playoff run but understand it's very much up for debate between Jokic Embiid Giannis. I also think that Embiid's defense should give him the edge IMO over Jokic, because Embiid plays at his DPOY at important times throughout the year, vs. Jokic's defensive improvement is again based off of some advanced defensive metrics that are laughable at best.

And if it's a total toss up, I wish it would've gone to the guy who hasn't won one before, and who has been through so much in his career with people doubting he would ever play more games than times he's tweeted, after he had a remarkably healthy season.

I'm fine with anybody winning it but it seems like this conversation was dominated by people caring too much about advanced stats, particularly by people who refuse to watch a game and admit that Embiid is a tier above Jokic defensively and instead fall back on some kind of bogus metrics that are widely accepted by NBA minds as not actually being predictive.

It is hilarious to me that you've somehow convinced yourself that this is true.

have you been on twitter in the past year?

[Cubbies2120]

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Actually

Jokic won 46 games in 2022
Embiid won 45 games in 2022
Giannis won 45 games in 2022

Jokic won more games than either Embiid or Giannis by 1 game. The difference in record for additional wins results from how each of their teammates played when those guys missed games.

Giving MVP based on wins means you either give it to Jokic or you give it to Embiid/Giannis based on games they never played in.

I guess the reason Curry isn't being mentioned here is that he has transcended MVP discussions and is MVP emeritus?

Prob has to do with almost 4 guys averaging 20ppg on the Warriors, along with having a generational defender in Green.

If Curry won it this year, there would only be two players in NBA history that had lower FG% when they won it - notoriously inefficient AI & Westbrook.

Not to mention no MVP in 44 years has missed more than 10 games except AI who missed 11. Curry missed 18.

He'll get his Finals MVP this year tho

[AleksandarN]

He is right. Jokic has anger management issues and can't be on the floor during key defensive plays, but hey advanced stats say he's an elite defender.

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

How many people said Jokic was a elite defender? A minority if that. He is a good defender with physical limitations.

Lol, plenty of people have said he's an elite defender based on the stats, they might be saying it tongue in cheek, or to get other fans going, but it's not just a few. Additionally there are many who questioned Embiid's defense, and asked, is Embiid even a better defender than Jokic.

So a small minority. Thanks for validating my post thanks

[Bergmaniac]

It’s embarrassing the mvp came from a 6th seed

Nuggets won 48 games
Sixers/Bucks won 51
Does 3 wins make or break an MVP case?

Being a first-round exit team in back-to-back season as the back-to-back MVP is just tragic. We knew the Nuggets were bad, so why give it to Jokic? The argument he made that team is good is nonsense. They got a gentlemen's sweep in the first round. How is that any good? Congratz you're the 16th best team out of 32. He took a bad team and made them average. Any superstar can do that. Embiid is still in the playoffs and we see how big his impact is. "oh but he has a great supporting cast, Jokic doesn't". The Sixers were down 0-2 with that great cast until Embiid played again and now we're questioning Miami because of Embiid. Are we going to give him the MVP next year too if the analytics say he's as good a defender as Embiid? He had the highest PER or top 3 ever. Boy did that turn into playoff wins. Ugh.

I didn't mind him winning it the first time. But being a back-to-back MVP is special. Going out of the first round and pretending it's "just a regular-season award" is bogus. Other factors play a part too such as playoff success or narrative. Winning back to back should always lead to some success in the playoffs. At least make it out of the first round. It diminishes the MVP even more because people will barely remember what season he had because he didn't even make it past April. Or they will remember it because of that fact. It's just tragic.

So basically you are blaming the voters for not having prophetic abilities? Since the voting was done before the playoffs even started.

And for the millionth time, it's only a regular season award and it's not "Who is the best player in the world" award or "Who do you think will do best in the playoffs this season" award. There is nothing tragic about the MVP losing in the first round.