DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[Klomp]

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[All The Bucks]

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[toooskies]

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Is this reflective of Brook's ability to contest shots, or is it reflective of the rest of the team's ability to funnel shots towards him? Is he playing drop coverage when Mobley might switch and force a pass? Is the system designed to pad those stats?

I just need someone from Milwaukee to explain to me how the Cavs' defense has a better DRTG while Milwaukee has three all-defense candidates. Someone is not being properly rated.

(Also, why are Lopez and JJJ so bad at defensive rebounding? JJJ specifically, as Memphis is 21st in team defensive rebounding rate.)

[All The Bucks]

50% more than 2nd place of anything is pretty hard to ignore. Especially if the category is "contesting shots" when judging defense. The man contests 50% more shots than the next highest shot contester in the entire league. Don't care what the qualifiers are or scheme differences are, that's significant.

[Dacost]

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[Perishable517]

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Is this reflective of Brook's ability to contest shots, or is it reflective of the rest of the team's ability to funnel shots towards him? Is he playing drop coverage when Mobley might switch and force a pass? Is the system designed to pad those stats?

I just need someone from Milwaukee to explain to me how the Cavs' defense has a better DRTG while Milwaukee has three all-defense candidates. Someone is not being properly rated.

(Also, why are Lopez and JJJ so bad at defensive rebounding? JJJ specifically, as Memphis is 21st in team defensive rebounding rate.)

Brook is a monster when he boxes out for his teammates. About all his teams when he played a normal season were rated highly on rebounding.

In other words, he helps GA and Portis grab boards.

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[ReasonablySober]

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Lopez has played 600 more minutes than JJJ.

[toooskies]

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Is this reflective of Brook's ability to contest shots, or is it reflective of the rest of the team's ability to funnel shots towards him? Is he playing drop coverage when Mobley might switch and force a pass? Is the system designed to pad those stats?

I just need someone from Milwaukee to explain to me how the Cavs' defense has a better DRTG while Milwaukee has three all-defense candidates. Someone is not being properly rated.

(Also, why are Lopez and JJJ so bad at defensive rebounding? JJJ specifically, as Memphis is 21st in team defensive rebounding rate.)

Brook is a monster when he boxes out for his teammates. About all his teams when he played a normal season were rated highly on rebounding.

In other words, he helps GA and Portis grab boards.

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Yep, looks like Milwaukee is 4th in team rebounding percentage. Memphis is in the 20s, so JJJ is clearly deficient there.

[kcktiny]

Is this reflective of Brook's ability to contest shots, or is it reflective of the rest of the team's ability to funnel shots towards him?

It's some of both.

However, a lot of it - the high number of FGAs Lopez has faced on defense - has to do with the fact that Giannis Antetokounmpo is an absolute monster on defense and opponents do not want to attempt shots when covered by him.

If you look at the NBA.com statistics webpages and the FGAs faced by players on defense, you'll see that the last 4-5 seasons Lopez has averaged about 28-30 FGAs/40min faced on defense, quite high for a big man, but Antetokounmpo just 13-17 FGAs/40min faced on defense, quite low for a big man.

Opponents simply do not attempt many shots against Antetokounmpo because his defense is so good. Watch when the Bucks play, players guarded by Antetokounmpo routinely give up trying to score on him and look elsewhere. As both Giannis and Lopez routinely guard opposing big men, that means more FGAs by big men guarded by Lopez rather than Antetokounmpo.

[Whateva]

Contested shots is a very, very, bad stat as a defensive argument.

because , first of all, centers on average always have more contested shots than the other positions. They cover most plays, so this stat doesn't tell you the whole story, it doesn't really tell you how good of a defender a player is. By this logic, a point guard is never ever going to be a good defender, since they have the least amount of contested shots of all the positions.

If I have to choose between a defender who averages 17 contested shots per game (i.e. Brook Lopez), versus, a player with less contested shots, but with a higher Defended Opponent FG% (Jaren Jackson, Giannis..), I would rather choose the latter.

[BAMAFREAK]

It’s JJJ then everyone else here

[yoyoboy]

It’s JJJ then everyone else here

Factor in the minutes and it's really not. Mobley is leading a better defense (#1 in the league) while having played 58% more total minutes this season than JJJ has. I don't understand why people don't value minutes in the end-year awards in general. You see the same thing with people's All-NBA ballots.

[Dacost]

It’s JJJ then everyone else here

Factor in the minutes and it's really not. Mobley is leading a better defense (#1 in the league) while having played 58% more total minutes this season than JJJ has. I don't understand why people don't value minutes in the end-year awards in general. You see the same thing with people's All-NBA ballots.

My opinion is completely different JJJ is clearly having a better year then Mobley and that what should matter.

Cavs play their starters 34 plus minutes a game while the Grizz starters average around 29.

Why should JJJ get punish for playing on different system and missing just few games.

Mobley deserves the most minutes of the year award instead.

[yoyoboy]

It’s JJJ then everyone else here

Factor in the minutes and it's really not. Mobley is leading a better defense (#1 in the league) while having played 58% more total minutes this season than JJJ has. I don't understand why people don't value minutes in the end-year awards in general. You see the same thing with people's All-NBA ballots.

My opinion is completely different JJJ is clearly having a better year then Mobley and that what should matter.

Cavs play their starters 34 plus minutes a game while the Grizz starters average around 29.

Why should JJJ get punish for playing on different system and missing just few games.

Mobley deserves the most minutes of the year award instead.

JJJ’s total minutes aren’t just a product of coaching. He’s always in foul trouble and he missed 17 games due to injury. He’s had 5 or more fouls in 16 games, which makes up 28% of his games played.

If he was able to play more minutes this season, the Grizzlies might not be almost a point behind the Cavs in DRTG. And that’s my point. You’d deserve credit for being able to sustain your defensive effort over more minutes, staying out of foul trouble so you can stay on the floor and help your team, as well as providing more cumulative defensive value over the season.

[floppymoose]

It's criminal that Draymond isn't on the OP poll list. He's not the winner this year, but he is absolutely in the top 10.

[Jables]

It's criminal that Draymond isn't on the OP poll list. He's not the winner this year, but he is absolutely in the top 10.

Nah been living off rep as it is (in terms of being some league best defender), may as well chuck Smart on there.

[floppymoose]

well not surprised that a Hornets fan doesn't understand defense. When have you ever had the opportunity to see it?

[hippesthippo]

Gotta be JJJ, right?

If you told me 10 years ago that Brook Lopez of all players would receive a DOPY at like 35 years old I would have laughed you right out of the forum. He's a huge part of what they do, but he's not the key that unlocks the option to put him in his current role. That's Giannis.

For the same reason, I also voted for Mobley over Jarrett Allen. It's really tough to separate the data when teams have two guys in the front court like that, so I just go by what my eyes tell me. Don't crucify me please. I can't watch every game of every team, this is just what I've personally seen.

I mean we give JJJ all the praise and not Steven Adams in Memphis, so why do we look at the situations in Milwaukee and Cleveland so differently?

1) JJJ
2) Mobley
3) Giannis

It's criminal that Draymond isn't on the OP poll list. He's not the winner this year, but he is absolutely in the top 10.

Nah been living off rep as it is (in terms of being some league best defender), may as well chuck Smart on there.

Agreed. He could easily replace Jaden or Caruso. I'm having a hard time thinking of any great wing/guard candidates this year. I haven't watched Boston in a while, but Smart is always good and I've heard Derrick White is having a heck of a year out there too. OG Anunoby wouldn't be a bad choice for a top10.

[hippesthippo]

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Is this reflective of Brook's ability to contest shots, or is it reflective of the rest of the team's ability to funnel shots towards him? Is he playing drop coverage when Mobley might switch and force a pass? Is the system designed to pad those stats?

I just need someone from Milwaukee to explain to me how the Cavs' defense has a better DRTG while Milwaukee has three all-defense candidates. Someone is not being properly rated.

(Also, why are Lopez and JJJ so bad at defensive rebounding? JJJ specifically, as Memphis is 21st in team defensive rebounding rate.)

Brook is a monster when he boxes out for his teammates. About all his teams when he played a normal season were rated highly on rebounding.

In other words, he helps GA and Portis grab boards.

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I think a lot of players just straight up avoid Giannis, but it's no secret what the Bucks do on defense. Bud has mixed in a few more wrinkles every year, but it's pretty much a straight up drop defense with Jrue fighting over screens, Brook blocking the rim and Giannis roaming on the side with everyone funneling the guys into contested shots.

Again, not a team I've watched a lot of this year since they haven't changed much, but that's what I've seen.

[cupcakesnake]

It's criminal that Draymond isn't on the OP poll list. He's not the winner this year, but he is absolutely in the top 10.

Draymond has been on the poll for most of the year. I usually try to toggle the bottom 2-3 spots on the list based on how much people are getting talked about by us and the media. If I remember correctly, I dropped Draymond and Embiid in favor of Caruso and McDaniels. The poll only lets me put 10 (well 9 if I want an "other" category) It's not like there's actually a top 10. Any cut off is going to arbitrarily cut off similarly talented people. I have a list of 25 guys I think deserve DPOY consideration.

I do put some level of thought into who goes on the poll, I try to factor in:
A) Who I think is really good on defense based on what I've seen.
B) Who other people think are really good on defense and what they're saying about it.
C) Tracking all the statistical study on defense throughout the year. Not just the catch-all metrics but people publishing specific cases using tracking data and other less readily available stuff.
D) Other things that tend to influence DPOY voting: team defensive rating and narrative.

I'm curious who you'd knock off in favor of Draymond. I campaigned a bit for Draymond's DPOY case earlier in the season when Steph went down and the Warriors briefly had an impressive run of games where the defense looked great. What I see as really hurting Draymond's case is how up and down the defense has been in Golden State and how they rank 16th in Drtg. Now I know this has more to do with Klay and Poole than Draymond but it really hurts DPOY campaigns. I high-key think of Draymond and OG Anunoby as two of the best defensive assets in the NBA, but neither are on the list because voters don't tend to vote for players on the 16th and 14th-ranked defense. Claxton is the only guy on the poll that isn't playing on an elite defense, and I left him on there because his campaign had such serious steam before the KD trade and people keep throwing his name on a lot of ballots. I think Jaden and Caruso deserved to be on a poll based on how often theyr'e getting mentioned and how the Bulls and Wolves have been 2 of the best defenses in the league over the second half of the season.

I'd like to have Draymond on, but I'd also like to have OG, Embiid, A.Gordon, Davis, Gobert, Butler, the entire Boston team. I have to pick 10 guys I think have the best DPOY campaigns.