Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs!

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

HotRocks34
RealGM
Posts: 17,198
And1: 21,129
Joined: Jun 23, 2007

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#481 » by HotRocks34 » Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:08 am

BrooklynDynasty wrote:So can we unpin this now? Seems odd to have one for him and not any of the other rookies the last few years


Pretty much agree.

The hype is overblown. Wemby is a good player but he's not "that guy."

Maybe he becomes the guy one day, but it's not today.
Jokic 31/21/22
Luka & Oscar = 5 x 27/8/8
The Brodie = All-out energy
RRR3
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,095
And1: 5,008
Joined: May 26, 2019
   

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#482 » by RRR3 » Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:13 am

_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.

Yeah they have to play Graham as the backup PG. Seems like an obvious move to me.
User avatar
Pachinko_
RealGM
Posts: 20,693
And1: 23,985
Joined: Jun 13, 2016
 

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#483 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:29 am

GrandTheftRondo wrote:
_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.

Quite clear they’re still rebuilding.

Which makes all these calls of Wemby MVP, DPOY etc just absolutely absurd.

He’s a rookie developing like anyone else.

Nah, as long as he's averaging 2.5 blocks and covers all that ground he will always be a DPOY candidate
_jin
Starter
Posts: 2,186
And1: 2,702
Joined: Feb 25, 2012

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#484 » by _jin » Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:34 am

Pachinko_ wrote:
GrandTheftRondo wrote:
_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.

Quite clear they’re still rebuilding.

Which makes all these calls of Wemby MVP, DPOY etc just absolutely absurd.

He’s a rookie developing like anyone else.

Nah, as long as he's averaging 2.5 blocks and covers all that ground he will always be a DPOY candidate

No way he's in the discussion this season. I think he's already one of the best defenders in the league but you can't be DPOY if your team is one of the worst defensive teams, no matter how good you are on that end.
There isnt a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby. Sochan and Vassell were supposedly defensive prospects but I dont see it with Sochan and Vassell has developed very well offensively but he sucks on defense. Collins and Keldon are abysmal, and their bench is even worse. Bassey is probably the 2nd best defender on that team. I think all that tanking has given some really bad habits to those kids who have no idea what to do on the court.
User avatar
Pachinko_
RealGM
Posts: 20,693
And1: 23,985
Joined: Jun 13, 2016
 

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#485 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:29 am

_jin wrote:No way he's in the discussion this season. I think he's already one of the best defenders in the league but you can't be DPOY if your team is one of the worst defensive teams, no matter how good you are on that end.

You're right, I forgot this is the NBA LOL.
They love to conflate and confuse irrelevant things, team achievements with personal achievements, narratives with actual players, past with present, and so forth.
Forget DPOY candidacy, aint happening
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 45,632
And1: 43,872
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#486 » by zimpy27 » Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:50 am

Will un-sticky for now but if we get a bunch of Wmeby threads we will bring it back
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
MoreyWins
Pro Prospect
Posts: 758
And1: 698
Joined: Oct 17, 2018
 

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#487 » by MoreyWins » Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:04 am

4-15
0-3 from 3PT
5 turnovers

I'm hoping Adam Silver makes the call sooner than later with easing up in the Spurs national tv games. It's not good ball. Team is like 3-8.
Kobe187
Starter
Posts: 2,484
And1: 2,190
Joined: Jun 08, 2019

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#488 » by Kobe187 » Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:36 am

Year 1 LeBron age 19:
39.5MPG 18.9FGA 417FG% 20.9 pts

Year 1 Durant age 19:
34.6MPG 17.1FGA 430FG% 20.3 pts

Year 1 Wemby age 19:
30.2MPG 16.1FGA 447FG% 19.7 pts

Doing pretty good in his rookie year, needs the ball more, needs more minutes.
GrandTheftRondo
RealGM
Posts: 10,239
And1: 10,779
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#489 » by GrandTheftRondo » Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:43 am

Kobe187 wrote:Year 1 LeBron age 19:
39.5MPG 18.9FGA 417FG% 20.9 pts

Year 1 Durant age 19:
34.6MPG 17.1FGA 430FG% 20.3 pts

Year 1 Wemby age 19:
30.2MPG 16.1FGA 447FG% 19.7 pts

I would have expected Wemby to be a bit more efficient considering how big he is but the Spurs seem content with him shooting like a guard all game and the Spurs don’t have a point guard who can make a simple entry pass.

If he had a half decent point guard out there, he’d be getting 6-7 easy layups a game
GrandTheftRondo
RealGM
Posts: 10,239
And1: 10,779
Joined: Dec 02, 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#490 » by GrandTheftRondo » Wed Nov 15, 2023 6:47 am

Pachinko_ wrote:
GrandTheftRondo wrote:
_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.

Quite clear they’re still rebuilding.

Which makes all these calls of Wemby MVP, DPOY etc just absolutely absurd.

He’s a rookie developing like anyone else.

Nah, as long as he's averaging 2.5 blocks and covers all that ground he will always be a DPOY candidate

Candidate maybe but you won’t win anything until your team wins 45+
User avatar
WestGOAT
Veteran
Posts: 2,594
And1: 3,518
Joined: Dec 20, 2015

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#491 » by WestGOAT » Wed Nov 15, 2023 7:51 am

Lmao Spurs get beat so bad this thread gets unstickied :lol:
Image
spotted in Bologna
shangrila
RealGM
Posts: 13,519
And1: 6,594
Joined: Dec 21, 2009
Location: Land of Aus
 

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#492 » by shangrila » Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:10 am

GrandTheftRondo wrote:
Kobe187 wrote:Year 1 LeBron age 19:
39.5MPG 18.9FGA 417FG% 20.9 pts

Year 1 Durant age 19:
34.6MPG 17.1FGA 430FG% 20.3 pts

Year 1 Wemby age 19:
30.2MPG 16.1FGA 447FG% 19.7 pts

I would have expected Wemby to be a bit more efficient considering how big he is but the Spurs seem content with him shooting like a guard all game and the Spurs don’t have a point guard who can make a simple entry pass.

If he had a half decent point guard out there, he’d be getting 6-7 easy layups a game

Any fan of a rebuilding team will attest to how much difference a competent PG can make
User avatar
Phreak50
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,928
And1: 10,969
Joined: Feb 01, 2014

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#493 » by Phreak50 » Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:11 am

Absolutely nothing wrong with losing a heap of games, that’s expected.

It’s the way they are losing that is concerning.

You can’t just expect these same guys to slot in next to another top pick or two and/or a star vet (in free agency/trade) and suddenly it turns around.

I said the same **** thing last year and it’s repeating again.

If you instil a losing culture you will develop losers. And that’s exactly what is happening.

These guys are disgraceful. They try hard for maybe 5-10 minutes every fourth quarter if the game is within reach. Other than that, they simply do not try on defense. They might be worse than last year excluding Wembanyama. All they care about is getting their shots up. You can set career highs on us down the other end, just do it quick so I can shoot again.

This is the youngest team in the league and they don’t even run around with any energy.

A lot of that is on them. A lot is on Pop. He needs to go. Sorry to be harsh but he simply doesn’t care about basketball like he used to.

None of this **** would fly with the great Spurs teams.

You’ve got one of the greatest prospects in the history of the game, another guy in Vassel that could be better than Ray Allen yet you run a muppet at point guard? You are damaging their development.

That’s a joke. You know how insulting that must be to other point guards around the league and to guys like Avery Johnson and Tony Parker? Oh, any old average power forward can do your job. Fml.

This isn’t going to magically turn around.
User avatar
zimpy27
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 45,632
And1: 43,872
Joined: Jul 13, 2014

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#494 » by zimpy27 » Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:58 am

Phreak50 wrote:Absolutely nothing wrong with losing a heap of games, that’s expected.

It’s the way they are losing that is concerning.

You can’t just expect these same guys to slot in next to another top pick or two and/or a star vet (in free agency/trade) and suddenly it turns around.

I said the same **** thing last year and it’s repeating again.

If you instil a losing culture you will develop losers. And that’s exactly what is happening.

These guys are disgraceful. They try hard for maybe 5-10 minutes every fourth quarter if the game is within reach. Other than that, they simply do not try on defense. They might be worse than last year excluding Wembanyama. All they care about is getting their shots up. You can set career highs on us down the other end, just do it quick so I can shoot again.

This is the youngest team in the league and they don’t even run around with any energy.

A lot of that is on them. A lot is on Pop. He needs to go. Sorry to be harsh but he simply doesn’t care about basketball like he used to.

None of this **** would fly with the great Spurs teams.

You’ve got one of the greatest prospects in the history of the game, another guy in Vassel that could be better than Ray Allen yet you run a muppet at point guard? You are damaging their development.

That’s a joke. You know how insulting that must be to other point guards around the league and to guys like Avery Johnson and Tony Parker? Oh, any old average power forward can do your job. Fml.

This isn’t going to magically turn around.


Only reasonable explanation is that they are tanking and using Sochan to do it covertly
"Let's play some basketball!" - Fergie
_jin
Starter
Posts: 2,186
And1: 2,702
Joined: Feb 25, 2012

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#495 » by _jin » Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:28 pm

zimpy27 wrote:
Phreak50 wrote:Absolutely nothing wrong with losing a heap of games, that’s expected.

It’s the way they are losing that is concerning.

You can’t just expect these same guys to slot in next to another top pick or two and/or a star vet (in free agency/trade) and suddenly it turns around.

I said the same **** thing last year and it’s repeating again.

If you instil a losing culture you will develop losers. And that’s exactly what is happening.

These guys are disgraceful. They try hard for maybe 5-10 minutes every fourth quarter if the game is within reach. Other than that, they simply do not try on defense. They might be worse than last year excluding Wembanyama. All they care about is getting their shots up. You can set career highs on us down the other end, just do it quick so I can shoot again.

This is the youngest team in the league and they don’t even run around with any energy.

A lot of that is on them. A lot is on Pop. He needs to go. Sorry to be harsh but he simply doesn’t care about basketball like he used to.

None of this **** would fly with the great Spurs teams.

You’ve got one of the greatest prospects in the history of the game, another guy in Vassel that could be better than Ray Allen yet you run a muppet at point guard? You are damaging their development.

That’s a joke. You know how insulting that must be to other point guards around the league and to guys like Avery Johnson and Tony Parker? Oh, any old average power forward can do your job. Fml.

This isn’t going to magically turn around.


Only reasonable explanation is that they are tanking and using Sochan to do it covertly

I dont know if they're tanking but they're not trying to win and they're prioritizing their players development and health over winning. Wemby is on a strict minute schedule and Pop will not derive from it no matter what happens. Last night Wemby started unusually strong with 4pts and 6rbs in 5mins, and Spurs were down 2 starters with a thin bench yet Pop still took him out at the 7:00 mark before everyone else like he always does. Against the Heat Wemby was shooting 2-1000 then made 3 in a row to start the 4th, Pop instantly took him out and sat him down until there was 3mins left in the game when he was cold and didnt take another shot. I'm not critizicing those choices but it shows that Pop is being very safe with Victor and doesnt want to take any risks, even if that means losing games that could be winnable.

About the PG and the coaching situation, I understand observing for a while but it can't last forever. I agree with Phreak50 that this team has developed a lot of bad habits from last year, I didnt watch a lot of Spurs games last season but it's easy to understand how they were a historically bad defensive team when you watch all of them minus Wemby "playing defense". Some of them were touted as defensive prospects but there's not a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby.
What kind of shocked me last night was seeing Wemby being lost so often on offense, I hadnt seen him that way since his Nanterre days 3 years ago when he was starting playing pro. In France and in Europe in general, there's a much bigger emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying coaches are better or anything like that, but there isnt much freestyling or letting your stars cook, everything is planned and by design, players know where they have to be at any time, Wemby is used to that and now he's told to do whatever he wants but he doesnt know where he has to be a lot of the time. Pop needs to start his season and start coaching those kids.
Bum Adebayo
General Manager
Posts: 7,711
And1: 4,075
Joined: Apr 28, 2016

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#496 » by Bum Adebayo » Wed Nov 15, 2023 1:38 pm

Kobe187 wrote:Year 1 LeBron age 19:
39.5MPG 18.9FGA 417FG% 20.9 pts

Year 1 Durant age 19:
34.6MPG 17.1FGA 430FG% 20.3 pts

Year 1 Wemby age 19:
30.2MPG 16.1FGA 447FG% 19.7 pts


Stop comparing scoring and efficiency to 10 or 20 years ago, average scoring and efficiency has gone wayy up. The best is to compare efficiency relative to league average.

Lebron: 20.9 PPG 95 TS+
Durant: 20.3 PPG 96 TS+
Wembanyama: 18.6 PPG 91 TS+

So yeah, less scoring in an era where it's easier than ever to score with higher pace and worse defense, and relative efficiency is also clearly worse. I mean, teams today score around 20 PPG more on average compared to 20 years ago FFS.
User avatar
G R E Y
Senior Mod - Spurs
Senior Mod - Spurs
Posts: 51,757
And1: 39,543
Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Location: Silver and Black
 

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#497 » by G R E Y » Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:51 pm

_jin wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Phreak50 wrote:Absolutely nothing wrong with losing a heap of games, that’s expected.

It’s the way they are losing that is concerning.

You can’t just expect these same guys to slot in next to another top pick or two and/or a star vet (in free agency/trade) and suddenly it turns around.

I said the same **** thing last year and it’s repeating again.

If you instil a losing culture you will develop losers. And that’s exactly what is happening.

These guys are disgraceful. They try hard for maybe 5-10 minutes every fourth quarter if the game is within reach. Other than that, they simply do not try on defense. They might be worse than last year excluding Wembanyama. All they care about is getting their shots up. You can set career highs on us down the other end, just do it quick so I can shoot again.

This is the youngest team in the league and they don’t even run around with any energy.

A lot of that is on them. A lot is on Pop. He needs to go. Sorry to be harsh but he simply doesn’t care about basketball like he used to.

None of this **** would fly with the great Spurs teams.

You’ve got one of the greatest prospects in the history of the game, another guy in Vassel that could be better than Ray Allen yet you run a muppet at point guard? You are damaging their development.

That’s a joke. You know how insulting that must be to other point guards around the league and to guys like Avery Johnson and Tony Parker? Oh, any old average power forward can do your job. Fml.

This isn’t going to magically turn around.


Only reasonable explanation is that they are tanking and using Sochan to do it covertly

I dont know if they're tanking but they're not trying to win and they're prioritizing their players development and health over winning. Wemby is on a strict minute schedule and Pop will not derive from it no matter what happens. Last night Wemby started unusually strong with 4pts and 6rbs in 5mins, and Spurs were down 2 starters with a thin bench yet Pop still took him out at the 7:00 mark before everyone else like he always does. Against the Heat Wemby was shooting 2-1000 then made 3 in a row to start the 4th, Pop instantly took him out and sat him down until there was 3mins left in the game when he was cold and didnt take another shot. I'm not critizicing those choices but it shows that Pop is being very safe with Victor and doesnt want to take any risks, even if that means losing games that could be winnable.

About the PG and the coaching situation, I understand observing for a while but it can't last forever. I agree with Phreak50 that this team has developed a lot of bad habits from last year, I didnt watch a lot of Spurs games last season but it's easy to understand how they were a historically bad defensive team when you watch all of them minus Wemby "playing defense". Some of them were touted as defensive prospects but there's not a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby.
What kind of shocked me last night was seeing Wemby being lost so often on offense, I hadnt seen him that way since his Nanterre days 3 years ago when he was starting playing pro. In France and in Europe in general, there's a much bigger emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying coaches are better or anything like that, but there isnt much freestyling or letting your stars cook, everything is planned and by design, players know where they have to be at any time, Wemby is used to that and now he's told to do whatever he wants but he doesnt know where he has to be a lot of the time. Pop needs to start his season and start coaching those kids.

A reasoned take rather than blatant biased assessment is refreshing, thank you.

Last season was about development. For those who didn't watch, our starting five played 18 games together the entire season. Could that affect playing together? Hmmm, I wonder.

Development includes things like individual improvements all across the board. If you watch the feeds where they don't go to commercials and keep it on the court without commentary, or go to games, you see what coaches are getting on players about, what players are helping each other with, etc. From handles to body angles to reads, switches, footwork, and effort, things are broken down in camp from like basic basic how to's.

Teamwise, if guys don't have reps together and game experience they are just not going to look great. Or good moments will be spotty and then rough versus good defensive teams. There are some far more seasoned teams, some expected to compete for it all, that have new additions and are also struggling. Should they, too, abandon all hope and just give up and change course completely 11 games into the season?

How we lose and how we win are important, I agree. There's a lot of new things being incorporated at once, and if you think Wemby is not on board with the more experimental approach to his play then you frankly have not been paying attention to what he's been saying since before we even drafted him. And it's also not to say that this will continue, just that we needed/need some time to assess where he's most comfortable on the court.

The point-Sochan experiment is just that and it rightly gets heat when it's not working, but is also disproportionately blamed for all the team's woes. A PG would not help solve all our O ills. We had Tre running point last season with worse results.

Can the youngest team in the league that needs to learn to navigate through bad shooting games with better D, needs to learn to stay resilient and tough out close games, needs to learn to play together (11 games), have a few more games together? Or should Pop and coaching staff abandon all long term goals and what is planned next to the reactions of fans who either haven't watched us enough or don't show up unless we're struggling to comment?

Doom and gloom is a magnet that draws bigger attention to the self. Frustration is understandable but seeing everything (or only selecting points to look at) as proof of a pre-conceived stance should get some examination, too.

Let's revisit the bigger picture once more of the canvas has been painted. We're not done developing and learning and getting reps. Progress is not linear.

Get some sunshine!
ImageImageImage
The Spurs Way Ever Onward

#XX
_jin
Starter
Posts: 2,186
And1: 2,702
Joined: Feb 25, 2012

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#498 » by _jin » Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:32 pm

G R E Y wrote:
_jin wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:
Only reasonable explanation is that they are tanking and using Sochan to do it covertly

I dont know if they're tanking but they're not trying to win and they're prioritizing their players development and health over winning. Wemby is on a strict minute schedule and Pop will not derive from it no matter what happens. Last night Wemby started unusually strong with 4pts and 6rbs in 5mins, and Spurs were down 2 starters with a thin bench yet Pop still took him out at the 7:00 mark before everyone else like he always does. Against the Heat Wemby was shooting 2-1000 then made 3 in a row to start the 4th, Pop instantly took him out and sat him down until there was 3mins left in the game when he was cold and didnt take another shot. I'm not critizicing those choices but it shows that Pop is being very safe with Victor and doesnt want to take any risks, even if that means losing games that could be winnable.

About the PG and the coaching situation, I understand observing for a while but it can't last forever. I agree with Phreak50 that this team has developed a lot of bad habits from last year, I didnt watch a lot of Spurs games last season but it's easy to understand how they were a historically bad defensive team when you watch all of them minus Wemby "playing defense". Some of them were touted as defensive prospects but there's not a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby.
What kind of shocked me last night was seeing Wemby being lost so often on offense, I hadnt seen him that way since his Nanterre days 3 years ago when he was starting playing pro. In France and in Europe in general, there's a much bigger emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying coaches are better or anything like that, but there isnt much freestyling or letting your stars cook, everything is planned and by design, players know where they have to be at any time, Wemby is used to that and now he's told to do whatever he wants but he doesnt know where he has to be a lot of the time. Pop needs to start his season and start coaching those kids.

A reasoned take rather than blatant biased assessment is refreshing, thank you.

Last season was about development. For those who didn't watch, our starting five played 18 games together the entire season. Could that affect playing together? Hmmm, I wonder.

Development includes things like individual improvements all across the board. If you watch the feeds where they don't go to commercials and keep it on the court without commentary, or go to games, you see what coaches are getting on players about, what players are helping each other with, etc. From handles to body angles to reads, switches, footwork, and effort, things are broken down in camp from like basic basic how to's.

Teamwise, if guys don't have reps together and game experience they are just not going to look great. Or good moments will be spotty and then rough versus good defensive teams. There are some far more seasoned teams, some expected to compete for it all, that have new additions and are also struggling. Should they, too, abandon all hope and just give up and change course completely 11 games into the season?

How we lose and how we win are important, I agree. There's a lot of new things being incorporated at once, and if you think Wemby is not on board with the more experimental approach to his play then you frankly have not been paying attention to what he's been saying since before we even drafted him. And it's also not to say that this will continue, just that we needed/need some time to assess where he's most comfortable on the court.

The point-Sochan experiment is just that and it rightly gets heat when it's not working, but is also disproportionately blamed for all the team's woes. A PG would not help solve all our O ills. We had Tre running point last season with worse results.

Can the youngest team in the league that needs to learn to navigate through bad shooting games with better D, needs to learn to stay resilient and tough out close games, needs to learn to play together (11 games), have a few more games together? Or should Pop and coaching staff abandon all long term goals and what is planned next to the reactions of fans who either haven't watched us enough or don't show up unless we're struggling to comment?

Doom and gloom is a magnet that draws bigger attention to the self. Frustration is understandable but seeing everything (or only selecting points to look at) as proof of a pre-conceived stance should get some examination, too.

Let's revisit the bigger picture once more of the canvas has been painted. We're not done developing and learning and getting reps. Progress is not linear.

Get some sunshine!

I dont really pay attention to timeouts and such, maybe I should, I dont think they show them on french TV and I've been watching Spurs games on french TV lately because the quality is much better than league pass on my monitor. But I know Pop has a plan, unlike a lot of Spurs fans online who seems to think he's senile. As you said, Wemby is very coachable and buys into the program, but he also wants to be pushed hard, as you probably know he turned down Barcelona because they told him they'd let him do whatever he wants.
I think there's a fine balance between giving your players freedom to explore and giving them some guidance, you can do the latter without impacting the former. It's a bit like parenting. When you have a mature kid like Wemby, you dont need to parent as much, you give him a framework and let him be unless he steps out of bounds. But he still needs a framework, and I dont think Wemby has had one so far, which is fine for a while but that can't last forever. They're developing some bad habits especially defensively. Like the way they setup for defense, with Wemby at the elbow covering one side and Collins at the low block on the other side, and they always funnel drivers towards Collins who is a poor rim protector, forcing Wemby to help and leave his side open or leave Collins get destroyed constantly. Why they dont force guards to go towards Wemby instead of Collins just baffles me.
Offensively people blame Wemby for being on the perimeter but they run a lot of the offense through Collins who sits in the paint which forces Wemby out and turns him into a range shooter.
There are lot of little things that could be fixed or tweaked but they havent been so far.
As you may have noticed by my posts in this thread, I've been supporting Pop's plan but as I said in my last post, it can't last forever. I'm not worried for Wemby though, I understand people are disappointed because of the hype but this is pretty much what I expected from him so far. As you said, Spurs fans just need to be patient. Same with Sochan, he wont be the PG, they probably want him to be a Draymond/Diaw type of secondary playmaker.
And no sunshine here, just rain and grey sky. :-?
User avatar
G R E Y
Senior Mod - Spurs
Senior Mod - Spurs
Posts: 51,757
And1: 39,543
Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Location: Silver and Black
 

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#499 » by G R E Y » Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:11 pm

_jin wrote:
G R E Y wrote:
_jin wrote:I dont know if they're tanking but they're not trying to win and they're prioritizing their players development and health over winning. Wemby is on a strict minute schedule and Pop will not derive from it no matter what happens. Last night Wemby started unusually strong with 4pts and 6rbs in 5mins, and Spurs were down 2 starters with a thin bench yet Pop still took him out at the 7:00 mark before everyone else like he always does. Against the Heat Wemby was shooting 2-1000 then made 3 in a row to start the 4th, Pop instantly took him out and sat him down until there was 3mins left in the game when he was cold and didnt take another shot. I'm not critizicing those choices but it shows that Pop is being very safe with Victor and doesnt want to take any risks, even if that means losing games that could be winnable.

About the PG and the coaching situation, I understand observing for a while but it can't last forever. I agree with Phreak50 that this team has developed a lot of bad habits from last year, I didnt watch a lot of Spurs games last season but it's easy to understand how they were a historically bad defensive team when you watch all of them minus Wemby "playing defense". Some of them were touted as defensive prospects but there's not a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby.
What kind of shocked me last night was seeing Wemby being lost so often on offense, I hadnt seen him that way since his Nanterre days 3 years ago when he was starting playing pro. In France and in Europe in general, there's a much bigger emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying coaches are better or anything like that, but there isnt much freestyling or letting your stars cook, everything is planned and by design, players know where they have to be at any time, Wemby is used to that and now he's told to do whatever he wants but he doesnt know where he has to be a lot of the time. Pop needs to start his season and start coaching those kids.

A reasoned take rather than blatant biased assessment is refreshing, thank you.

Last season was about development. For those who didn't watch, our starting five played 18 games together the entire season. Could that affect playing together? Hmmm, I wonder.

Development includes things like individual improvements all across the board. If you watch the feeds where they don't go to commercials and keep it on the court without commentary, or go to games, you see what coaches are getting on players about, what players are helping each other with, etc. From handles to body angles to reads, switches, footwork, and effort, things are broken down in camp from like basic basic how to's.

Teamwise, if guys don't have reps together and game experience they are just not going to look great. Or good moments will be spotty and then rough versus good defensive teams. There are some far more seasoned teams, some expected to compete for it all, that have new additions and are also struggling. Should they, too, abandon all hope and just give up and change course completely 11 games into the season?

How we lose and how we win are important, I agree. There's a lot of new things being incorporated at once, and if you think Wemby is not on board with the more experimental approach to his play then you frankly have not been paying attention to what he's been saying since before we even drafted him. And it's also not to say that this will continue, just that we needed/need some time to assess where he's most comfortable on the court.

The point-Sochan experiment is just that and it rightly gets heat when it's not working, but is also disproportionately blamed for all the team's woes. A PG would not help solve all our O ills. We had Tre running point last season with worse results.

Can the youngest team in the league that needs to learn to navigate through bad shooting games with better D, needs to learn to stay resilient and tough out close games, needs to learn to play together (11 games), have a few more games together? Or should Pop and coaching staff abandon all long term goals and what is planned next to the reactions of fans who either haven't watched us enough or don't show up unless we're struggling to comment?

Doom and gloom is a magnet that draws bigger attention to the self. Frustration is understandable but seeing everything (or only selecting points to look at) as proof of a pre-conceived stance should get some examination, too.

Let's revisit the bigger picture once more of the canvas has been painted. We're not done developing and learning and getting reps. Progress is not linear.

Get some sunshine!

I dont really pay attention to timeouts and such, maybe I should, I dont think they show them on french TV and I've been watching Spurs games on french TV lately because the quality is much better than league pass on my monitor. But I know Pop has a plan, unlike a lot of Spurs fans online who seems to think he's senile. As you said, Wemby is very coachable and buys into the program, but he also wants to be pushed hard, as you probably know he turned down Barcelona because they told him they'd let him do whatever he wants.
I think there's a fine balance between giving your players freedom to explore and giving them some guidance, you can do the latter without impacting the former. It's a bit like parenting. When you have a mature kid like Wemby, you dont need to parent as much, you give him a framework and let him be unless he steps out of bounds. But he still needs a framework, and I dont think Wemby has had one so far, which is fine for a while but that can't last forever. They're developing some bad habits especially defensively. Like the way they setup for defense, with Wemby at the elbow covering one side and Collins at the low block on the other side, and they always funnel drivers towards Collins who is a poor rim protector, forcing Wemby to help and leave his side open or leave Collins get destroyed constantly. Why they dont force guards to go towards Wemby instead of Collins just baffles me.
Offensively people blame Wemby for being on the perimeter but they run a lot of the offense through Collins who sits in the paint which forces Wemby out and turns him into a range shooter.
There are lot of little things that could be fixed or tweaked but they havent been so far.
As you may have noticed by my posts in this thread, I've been supporting Pop's plan but as I said in my last post, it can't last forever. I'm not worried for Wemby though, I understand people are disappointed because of the hype but this is pretty much what I expected from him so far. As you said, Spurs fans just need to be patient. Same with Sochan, he wont be the PG, they probably want him to be a Draymond/Diaw type of secondary playmaker.
And no sunshine here, just rain and grey sky. :-?

Some good points here. The first is that what we've done with Wemby so far has been with his input. It's because we talked to him and have heard what he wants not despite it.

He's said numerous times he wants to work with staff and team mates but not be boxed in from the start of his career.

The next point is that Zach is the 5. He protected the rim well enough last season which gave us the confidence to start him (he also stretches the floor and passes well for a big on O). Wemby's D role is more of a roaming super switching protection for anyone daring to come close. You can see guys pulling back when trying to drive. And because Wemby covers SO much ground he covers weak side swings as well. He has said he never played this type of D role but is liking learning and growing.

Next, just because we're taking however many games to assess how Wemby likes to be comfortable on the court does not mean it is permanent. More catered sets will come but after the assessment, not before, which makes sense given his unique talent and skill set. He isn't given free reign to do whatever he wants without consequence. Pop gets into him when he screws up a set play or a D assignment like he does anyone else.

Agree 100% with what you see Sochan mold like - the great vision passing big like Dray or Diaw. Last season, Sochan showed some real talent for finding cutters and making cross court swing passes to the weak side. I think this put the thought of the point-forward experiment into place.

But it's just that. An experiment. Sochan was great with those passes largely off ball. Running point you can tell he struggles with weaker handles, with slower reads, and with right decisions. He doesn't think like a PG and doesn't have the skills to break down defenders with the ball.

I do like that he's getting to guard a lot of the best players basically 1 through 4. Lost in the unraveling of the second half was Sochan's very good D, even on SGA. He's better now at keeping quicker perimeter players in front of him than at the beginning the season. This is valuable long term even if lost in the micro moment hot takes after a bad loss.

But I do think that this all may be more than Sochan can handle at once right now. Maybe more off ball, maybe playing more at the 3 on O interspersed with the point-Sochan experiment.

As for bad habits, well the good ones have to be reinforced, that's true. But young guys learning it all together requires teaching moments and instructing differently than a vet team. Like Keldon is our longest tenured Spur. Think about that.

And so blowouts will happen more with a team like this. Young teams tend to get affected on D more by O misses. They tend to make more mistakes. They tend to be more inconsistent, both with on court play and mental resilience.

Mavs looked abysmal yesterday. LAC have also lost 6 in a row.

Bad losses are not unique to us, but the sudden scrutiny and expectations of a team coming off a 22-win season has some people calling for all sorts of grand changes 11 games into the next season. It. Takes. Time. We will make adjustments. We will learn. We will get better.
ImageImageImage
The Spurs Way Ever Onward

#XX
BasketballAnon
Sophomore
Posts: 165
And1: 255
Joined: Oct 26, 2022

Re: Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs! 

Post#500 » by BasketballAnon » Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:53 pm

I really think he should stop shooting 3's. He's not good enough at them right now and he's better under the basket.

Return to The General Board