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BrooklynDynasty wrote:So can we unpin this now? Seems odd to have one for him and not any of the other rookies the last few years
_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.
GrandTheftRondo wrote:_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.
Quite clear they’re still rebuilding.
Which makes all these calls of Wemby MVP, DPOY etc just absolutely absurd.
He’s a rookie developing like anyone else.
Pachinko_ wrote:GrandTheftRondo wrote:_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.
Quite clear they’re still rebuilding.
Which makes all these calls of Wemby MVP, DPOY etc just absolutely absurd.
He’s a rookie developing like anyone else.
Nah, as long as he's averaging 2.5 blocks and covers all that ground he will always be a DPOY candidate
_jin wrote:No way he's in the discussion this season. I think he's already one of the best defenders in the league but you can't be DPOY if your team is one of the worst defensive teams, no matter how good you are on that end.
Kobe187 wrote:Year 1 LeBron age 19:
39.5MPG 18.9FGA 417FG% 20.9 pts
Year 1 Durant age 19:
34.6MPG 17.1FGA 430FG% 20.3 pts
Year 1 Wemby age 19:
30.2MPG 16.1FGA 447FG% 19.7 pts
Pachinko_ wrote:GrandTheftRondo wrote:_jin wrote:Sochan at PG clearly isnt working but what solution do they have. They could move Tre to the starting lineup but then you got Sochan or Keldon leading a 2nd unit where no one can get their own shot. I dont think Devonte Graham is the answer. They're stuck unless they trade for a PG.
Quite clear they’re still rebuilding.
Which makes all these calls of Wemby MVP, DPOY etc just absolutely absurd.
He’s a rookie developing like anyone else.
Nah, as long as he's averaging 2.5 blocks and covers all that ground he will always be a DPOY candidate
GrandTheftRondo wrote:Kobe187 wrote:Year 1 LeBron age 19:
39.5MPG 18.9FGA 417FG% 20.9 pts
Year 1 Durant age 19:
34.6MPG 17.1FGA 430FG% 20.3 pts
Year 1 Wemby age 19:
30.2MPG 16.1FGA 447FG% 19.7 pts
I would have expected Wemby to be a bit more efficient considering how big he is but the Spurs seem content with him shooting like a guard all game and the Spurs don’t have a point guard who can make a simple entry pass.
If he had a half decent point guard out there, he’d be getting 6-7 easy layups a game
Phreak50 wrote:Absolutely nothing wrong with losing a heap of games, that’s expected.
It’s the way they are losing that is concerning.
You can’t just expect these same guys to slot in next to another top pick or two and/or a star vet (in free agency/trade) and suddenly it turns around.
I said the same **** thing last year and it’s repeating again.
If you instil a losing culture you will develop losers. And that’s exactly what is happening.
These guys are disgraceful. They try hard for maybe 5-10 minutes every fourth quarter if the game is within reach. Other than that, they simply do not try on defense. They might be worse than last year excluding Wembanyama. All they care about is getting their shots up. You can set career highs on us down the other end, just do it quick so I can shoot again.
This is the youngest team in the league and they don’t even run around with any energy.
A lot of that is on them. A lot is on Pop. He needs to go. Sorry to be harsh but he simply doesn’t care about basketball like he used to.
None of this **** would fly with the great Spurs teams.
You’ve got one of the greatest prospects in the history of the game, another guy in Vassel that could be better than Ray Allen yet you run a muppet at point guard? You are damaging their development.
That’s a joke. You know how insulting that must be to other point guards around the league and to guys like Avery Johnson and Tony Parker? Oh, any old average power forward can do your job. Fml.
This isn’t going to magically turn around.
zimpy27 wrote:Phreak50 wrote:Absolutely nothing wrong with losing a heap of games, that’s expected.
It’s the way they are losing that is concerning.
You can’t just expect these same guys to slot in next to another top pick or two and/or a star vet (in free agency/trade) and suddenly it turns around.
I said the same **** thing last year and it’s repeating again.
If you instil a losing culture you will develop losers. And that’s exactly what is happening.
These guys are disgraceful. They try hard for maybe 5-10 minutes every fourth quarter if the game is within reach. Other than that, they simply do not try on defense. They might be worse than last year excluding Wembanyama. All they care about is getting their shots up. You can set career highs on us down the other end, just do it quick so I can shoot again.
This is the youngest team in the league and they don’t even run around with any energy.
A lot of that is on them. A lot is on Pop. He needs to go. Sorry to be harsh but he simply doesn’t care about basketball like he used to.
None of this **** would fly with the great Spurs teams.
You’ve got one of the greatest prospects in the history of the game, another guy in Vassel that could be better than Ray Allen yet you run a muppet at point guard? You are damaging their development.
That’s a joke. You know how insulting that must be to other point guards around the league and to guys like Avery Johnson and Tony Parker? Oh, any old average power forward can do your job. Fml.
This isn’t going to magically turn around.
Only reasonable explanation is that they are tanking and using Sochan to do it covertly
Kobe187 wrote:Year 1 LeBron age 19:
39.5MPG 18.9FGA 417FG% 20.9 pts
Year 1 Durant age 19:
34.6MPG 17.1FGA 430FG% 20.3 pts
Year 1 Wemby age 19:
30.2MPG 16.1FGA 447FG% 19.7 pts
_jin wrote:zimpy27 wrote:Phreak50 wrote:Absolutely nothing wrong with losing a heap of games, that’s expected.
It’s the way they are losing that is concerning.
You can’t just expect these same guys to slot in next to another top pick or two and/or a star vet (in free agency/trade) and suddenly it turns around.
I said the same **** thing last year and it’s repeating again.
If you instil a losing culture you will develop losers. And that’s exactly what is happening.
These guys are disgraceful. They try hard for maybe 5-10 minutes every fourth quarter if the game is within reach. Other than that, they simply do not try on defense. They might be worse than last year excluding Wembanyama. All they care about is getting their shots up. You can set career highs on us down the other end, just do it quick so I can shoot again.
This is the youngest team in the league and they don’t even run around with any energy.
A lot of that is on them. A lot is on Pop. He needs to go. Sorry to be harsh but he simply doesn’t care about basketball like he used to.
None of this **** would fly with the great Spurs teams.
You’ve got one of the greatest prospects in the history of the game, another guy in Vassel that could be better than Ray Allen yet you run a muppet at point guard? You are damaging their development.
That’s a joke. You know how insulting that must be to other point guards around the league and to guys like Avery Johnson and Tony Parker? Oh, any old average power forward can do your job. Fml.
This isn’t going to magically turn around.
Only reasonable explanation is that they are tanking and using Sochan to do it covertly
I dont know if they're tanking but they're not trying to win and they're prioritizing their players development and health over winning. Wemby is on a strict minute schedule and Pop will not derive from it no matter what happens. Last night Wemby started unusually strong with 4pts and 6rbs in 5mins, and Spurs were down 2 starters with a thin bench yet Pop still took him out at the 7:00 mark before everyone else like he always does. Against the Heat Wemby was shooting 2-1000 then made 3 in a row to start the 4th, Pop instantly took him out and sat him down until there was 3mins left in the game when he was cold and didnt take another shot. I'm not critizicing those choices but it shows that Pop is being very safe with Victor and doesnt want to take any risks, even if that means losing games that could be winnable.
About the PG and the coaching situation, I understand observing for a while but it can't last forever. I agree with Phreak50 that this team has developed a lot of bad habits from last year, I didnt watch a lot of Spurs games last season but it's easy to understand how they were a historically bad defensive team when you watch all of them minus Wemby "playing defense". Some of them were touted as defensive prospects but there's not a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby.
What kind of shocked me last night was seeing Wemby being lost so often on offense, I hadnt seen him that way since his Nanterre days 3 years ago when he was starting playing pro. In France and in Europe in general, there's a much bigger emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying coaches are better or anything like that, but there isnt much freestyling or letting your stars cook, everything is planned and by design, players know where they have to be at any time, Wemby is used to that and now he's told to do whatever he wants but he doesnt know where he has to be a lot of the time. Pop needs to start his season and start coaching those kids.
G R E Y wrote:_jin wrote:zimpy27 wrote:
Only reasonable explanation is that they are tanking and using Sochan to do it covertly
I dont know if they're tanking but they're not trying to win and they're prioritizing their players development and health over winning. Wemby is on a strict minute schedule and Pop will not derive from it no matter what happens. Last night Wemby started unusually strong with 4pts and 6rbs in 5mins, and Spurs were down 2 starters with a thin bench yet Pop still took him out at the 7:00 mark before everyone else like he always does. Against the Heat Wemby was shooting 2-1000 then made 3 in a row to start the 4th, Pop instantly took him out and sat him down until there was 3mins left in the game when he was cold and didnt take another shot. I'm not critizicing those choices but it shows that Pop is being very safe with Victor and doesnt want to take any risks, even if that means losing games that could be winnable.
About the PG and the coaching situation, I understand observing for a while but it can't last forever. I agree with Phreak50 that this team has developed a lot of bad habits from last year, I didnt watch a lot of Spurs games last season but it's easy to understand how they were a historically bad defensive team when you watch all of them minus Wemby "playing defense". Some of them were touted as defensive prospects but there's not a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby.
What kind of shocked me last night was seeing Wemby being lost so often on offense, I hadnt seen him that way since his Nanterre days 3 years ago when he was starting playing pro. In France and in Europe in general, there's a much bigger emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying coaches are better or anything like that, but there isnt much freestyling or letting your stars cook, everything is planned and by design, players know where they have to be at any time, Wemby is used to that and now he's told to do whatever he wants but he doesnt know where he has to be a lot of the time. Pop needs to start his season and start coaching those kids.
A reasoned take rather than blatant biased assessment is refreshing, thank you.
Last season was about development. For those who didn't watch, our starting five played 18 games together the entire season. Could that affect playing together? Hmmm, I wonder.
Development includes things like individual improvements all across the board. If you watch the feeds where they don't go to commercials and keep it on the court without commentary, or go to games, you see what coaches are getting on players about, what players are helping each other with, etc. From handles to body angles to reads, switches, footwork, and effort, things are broken down in camp from like basic basic how to's.
Teamwise, if guys don't have reps together and game experience they are just not going to look great. Or good moments will be spotty and then rough versus good defensive teams. There are some far more seasoned teams, some expected to compete for it all, that have new additions and are also struggling. Should they, too, abandon all hope and just give up and change course completely 11 games into the season?
How we lose and how we win are important, I agree. There's a lot of new things being incorporated at once, and if you think Wemby is not on board with the more experimental approach to his play then you frankly have not been paying attention to what he's been saying since before we even drafted him. And it's also not to say that this will continue, just that we needed/need some time to assess where he's most comfortable on the court.
The point-Sochan experiment is just that and it rightly gets heat when it's not working, but is also disproportionately blamed for all the team's woes. A PG would not help solve all our O ills. We had Tre running point last season with worse results.
Can the youngest team in the league that needs to learn to navigate through bad shooting games with better D, needs to learn to stay resilient and tough out close games, needs to learn to play together (11 games), have a few more games together? Or should Pop and coaching staff abandon all long term goals and what is planned next to the reactions of fans who either haven't watched us enough or don't show up unless we're struggling to comment?
Doom and gloom is a magnet that draws bigger attention to the self. Frustration is understandable but seeing everything (or only selecting points to look at) as proof of a pre-conceived stance should get some examination, too.
Let's revisit the bigger picture once more of the canvas has been painted. We're not done developing and learning and getting reps. Progress is not linear.
Get some sunshine!
_jin wrote:G R E Y wrote:_jin wrote:I dont know if they're tanking but they're not trying to win and they're prioritizing their players development and health over winning. Wemby is on a strict minute schedule and Pop will not derive from it no matter what happens. Last night Wemby started unusually strong with 4pts and 6rbs in 5mins, and Spurs were down 2 starters with a thin bench yet Pop still took him out at the 7:00 mark before everyone else like he always does. Against the Heat Wemby was shooting 2-1000 then made 3 in a row to start the 4th, Pop instantly took him out and sat him down until there was 3mins left in the game when he was cold and didnt take another shot. I'm not critizicing those choices but it shows that Pop is being very safe with Victor and doesnt want to take any risks, even if that means losing games that could be winnable.
About the PG and the coaching situation, I understand observing for a while but it can't last forever. I agree with Phreak50 that this team has developed a lot of bad habits from last year, I didnt watch a lot of Spurs games last season but it's easy to understand how they were a historically bad defensive team when you watch all of them minus Wemby "playing defense". Some of them were touted as defensive prospects but there's not a single good defender on that team outside of Wemby.
What kind of shocked me last night was seeing Wemby being lost so often on offense, I hadnt seen him that way since his Nanterre days 3 years ago when he was starting playing pro. In France and in Europe in general, there's a much bigger emphasis on coaching. I'm not saying coaches are better or anything like that, but there isnt much freestyling or letting your stars cook, everything is planned and by design, players know where they have to be at any time, Wemby is used to that and now he's told to do whatever he wants but he doesnt know where he has to be a lot of the time. Pop needs to start his season and start coaching those kids.
A reasoned take rather than blatant biased assessment is refreshing, thank you.
Last season was about development. For those who didn't watch, our starting five played 18 games together the entire season. Could that affect playing together? Hmmm, I wonder.
Development includes things like individual improvements all across the board. If you watch the feeds where they don't go to commercials and keep it on the court without commentary, or go to games, you see what coaches are getting on players about, what players are helping each other with, etc. From handles to body angles to reads, switches, footwork, and effort, things are broken down in camp from like basic basic how to's.
Teamwise, if guys don't have reps together and game experience they are just not going to look great. Or good moments will be spotty and then rough versus good defensive teams. There are some far more seasoned teams, some expected to compete for it all, that have new additions and are also struggling. Should they, too, abandon all hope and just give up and change course completely 11 games into the season?
How we lose and how we win are important, I agree. There's a lot of new things being incorporated at once, and if you think Wemby is not on board with the more experimental approach to his play then you frankly have not been paying attention to what he's been saying since before we even drafted him. And it's also not to say that this will continue, just that we needed/need some time to assess where he's most comfortable on the court.
The point-Sochan experiment is just that and it rightly gets heat when it's not working, but is also disproportionately blamed for all the team's woes. A PG would not help solve all our O ills. We had Tre running point last season with worse results.
Can the youngest team in the league that needs to learn to navigate through bad shooting games with better D, needs to learn to stay resilient and tough out close games, needs to learn to play together (11 games), have a few more games together? Or should Pop and coaching staff abandon all long term goals and what is planned next to the reactions of fans who either haven't watched us enough or don't show up unless we're struggling to comment?
Doom and gloom is a magnet that draws bigger attention to the self. Frustration is understandable but seeing everything (or only selecting points to look at) as proof of a pre-conceived stance should get some examination, too.
Let's revisit the bigger picture once more of the canvas has been painted. We're not done developing and learning and getting reps. Progress is not linear.
Get some sunshine!
I dont really pay attention to timeouts and such, maybe I should, I dont think they show them on french TV and I've been watching Spurs games on french TV lately because the quality is much better than league pass on my monitor. But I know Pop has a plan, unlike a lot of Spurs fans online who seems to think he's senile. As you said, Wemby is very coachable and buys into the program, but he also wants to be pushed hard, as you probably know he turned down Barcelona because they told him they'd let him do whatever he wants.
I think there's a fine balance between giving your players freedom to explore and giving them some guidance, you can do the latter without impacting the former. It's a bit like parenting. When you have a mature kid like Wemby, you dont need to parent as much, you give him a framework and let him be unless he steps out of bounds. But he still needs a framework, and I dont think Wemby has had one so far, which is fine for a while but that can't last forever. They're developing some bad habits especially defensively. Like the way they setup for defense, with Wemby at the elbow covering one side and Collins at the low block on the other side, and they always funnel drivers towards Collins who is a poor rim protector, forcing Wemby to help and leave his side open or leave Collins get destroyed constantly. Why they dont force guards to go towards Wemby instead of Collins just baffles me.
Offensively people blame Wemby for being on the perimeter but they run a lot of the offense through Collins who sits in the paint which forces Wemby out and turns him into a range shooter.
There are lot of little things that could be fixed or tweaked but they havent been so far.
As you may have noticed by my posts in this thread, I've been supporting Pop's plan but as I said in my last post, it can't last forever. I'm not worried for Wemby though, I understand people are disappointed because of the hype but this is pretty much what I expected from him so far. As you said, Spurs fans just need to be patient. Same with Sochan, he wont be the PG, they probably want him to be a Draymond/Diaw type of secondary playmaker.
And no sunshine here, just rain and grey sky.