RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Homer38]

What is your definition of an all around player then?

everything...scoring,playmaker,defense,etc

Thank you for providing a definition, but if you say everything, then doesn't Draymond do more than Lebron? Dude is willing to hit a few nutsacks for the team.

I disagree with this definition.

Are you trolling?...Draymond is not the scorer that LBJ is....I mean c'mon

[Iwasawitness]

I understand your point. He can do everything: assist, score, rebound, defense, walk on water, etc., but he's only had one great year as the primary facilitator when the Lakers won the championship at Disney World. He averaged 10.2 assists, but for the most part, he's been a 30 point 6 assist guy. Those are Kobe, Shai, Curry, Jordan numbers, so he belongs in that tier. Trust me, that's the tier he wants to be in. All-around guys are a tier below those guys. It's not a diss on Lebron calling him a prolific scorer.

I honestly don't know what your purpose was making this thread. Was it to just troll LeBron fans? Was it to lie for fun? I can remember a thread that asked what was the most disappointing finals performance of all time and for a stupid reason, it left LeBron's 2011 performance off even though that was the clear answer. Now in this case, you're doing the exact same thing on the opposite spectrum. LeBron is the greatest all around player. Bird is the only person who really comes close.

I've always said that if someone's reasoning for doing something doesn't make sense or is false, then what they're doing probably doesn't make sense either. In this case, at least going by your logic, it supports my theory. LeBron has for the most part been a 30 point and 6 assist guy? He's averaged over 7 APG for more than half of his career. In fact, I actually decided to do the math. He's only averaged less than that in eight seasons. For a 20 year career, your math isn't mathing. It's made worse by the fact that he's only averaged 30 PPG three times.

It's best you stop trying to defend your position. You'll only make things worse for yourself.

He's only had one season where he's the primary facilitator. I agree he's a great all around player, but compare to guys like Doncic, Jokic, and Kidd? Please. He's more of a scorer, so he belongs in the MJ, Kobe, Curry category. How am I trolling when that is the most legit category?

How can you sit here and ask "how am I trolling" right after saying the bolded? How is this thread still open?

Please.

I was off 1 assist point. Lebron, to me, is on the tier of MJ, Kobe, Curry, etc. How am I hating when I rank him higher than anybody on the list in this thread?

If you want to have a legit debate, define what an all around player is. Otherwise, we're just going to compare how big our private parts are and sound like a bunch of idiots.

Someone already did and your laughable response to it was that LeBron doesn't kick enough nuts to qualify. It's very clear at this point that you are trolling.

[Homer38]

Jordan

He was not even the greatest all around player in his team in the 1990s

[Iwasawitness]

One of my criteria is to omit records. If he plays longer than all those players, then it goes to reason he will have more assists, but to claim his passing is the equivalent of Kidd or Magic is just being disingenuous. Magic stopped playing in his early 30s; Lebron is still playing close to 40. Claiming he has a record number of assist doesn't mean jack squat. It just means he's an old fart who played longer than anybody on that list

If you look at the average assists per game,LBJ is still higher for any not PG of all-time

That’s because his APG totals have been cooked for his entire career. He’s credited with 2-3 phantom assists almost every game. His career average should be closer to 5 APG instead of 7+. Lebron would get credited for an assist if he inbounded the ball to a teammate who sank a full court heave two seconds before the halftime buzzer.

Source please.

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron redeemed himself so many time too

Lebron teamed up with Wade and Bosh in Miami

Went to Cleveland with a 22 year old all star player in Irving, and im sure he was aware that they would trade their draft pick for another all star player which they did

Went to LA and helped orchestrate the Davis trade

Dirk never demanded that Cuban trade for another all star player and he never bailed

Not even close to being the same situation if comparing the two

You have better chance to have great sucess in the long run to be drafted by a big market team with a strong front office that being drafted by a small market team with a poor front office who let a young player like Boozer leave after the rookie year of LBJ.Even if you leave that team after 7 years,this is not a advantage compared at the other who was in a great situation from the start.Some other teams tried that but it was a huge failure(Suns,Nets,Clippers just in the last 5 years)

LeBron went back to Cleveland and went to LA after that, it was because of the location....Only LBJ can go to a team that had a losing record for years and the haters say that team was loaded after that....Yeah,so unfair when LBJ has some help but when some players is in a great situation from the start and he has no reason to leave,this is fair....Make no sense

Yea it sucked for him his first 7 years in the league. But:

- he made up for it by picking several of his teammates after that
- other star players were drafted by organizations with no talent on the roster
- Cuban was so brilliant he let Nash walk to Phoenix and didnt draft Giannis because he wanted to trade down and save some money for free agency

James is awesome. Top 3 player of all time. But not every superstar player had it easy throughout their career. Wasnt just him lol

[MavsDirk41]

There's no such thing as redemption for a 67 win team (best record in the league) who loses in the first round to a 42 win 8 seed.

Your opinion, i disagree. He outplayed two HOF players in their prime in that finals

Dirk and the mavs had also a major choke job vs Miami in 2006.

You mean the one where Wade lived at the free throw line? Did you watch that series at all?

[Lo Wang]

everything...scoring,playmaker,defense,etc

Thank you for providing a definition, but if you say everything, then doesn't Draymond do more than Lebron? Dude is willing to hit a few nutsacks for the team.

I disagree with this definition.

Are you trolling?...Draymond is not the scorer that LBJ is....I mean c'mon

My definition of an all around player is a player who can get a triple double night in and night out and his primary role is to facilitate before he scores.

Lebron only fits that criteria for 2-3 season while all the guys on that list did it their entire career.

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan

He was not even the greatest all around player in his team in the 1990s

Your opinion

[hardenASG13]

You dared to not include LeBron at all?

By all around, I mean triple double threat: a guy who does a bit of everything. Lebron has been more of a prolific scorer than an all around player; it's hard to classify, but I just don't see him as an all around player like Kidd, Magic, Doncic, etc.

I'm open to a debate on this subject matter because I admit I could be wrong.

This might be the worst take I've ever seen on here. Lebron is the best all around player to play in the NBA.

[Lo Wang]

I honestly don't know what your purpose was making this thread. Was it to just troll LeBron fans? Was it to lie for fun? I can remember a thread that asked what was the most disappointing finals performance of all time and for a stupid reason, it left LeBron's 2011 performance off even though that was the clear answer. Now in this case, you're doing the exact same thing on the opposite spectrum. LeBron is the greatest all around player. Bird is the only person who really comes close.

I've always said that if someone's reasoning for doing something doesn't make sense or is false, then what they're doing probably doesn't make sense either. In this case, at least going by your logic, it supports my theory. LeBron has for the most part been a 30 point and 6 assist guy? He's averaged over 7 APG for more than half of his career. In fact, I actually decided to do the math. He's only averaged less than that in eight seasons. For a 20 year career, your math isn't mathing. It's made worse by the fact that he's only averaged 30 PPG three times.

It's best you stop trying to defend your position. You'll only make things worse for yourself.



How can you sit here and ask "how am I trolling" right after saying the bolded? How is this thread still open?

Please.

I was off 1 assist point. Lebron, to me, is on the tier of MJ, Kobe, Curry, etc. How am I hating when I rank him higher than anybody on the list in this thread?

If you want to have a legit debate, define what an all around player is. Otherwise, we're just going to compare how big our private parts are and sound like a bunch of idiots.

Someone already did and your laughable response to it was that LeBron doesn't kick enough nuts to qualify. It's very clear at this point that you are trolling.

No he said an all around player is a player who did everything. It was a weak definition. By definition a player who literally does everything is not Lebron; it's guys like Rodman and Draymond. That's literally doing everything. I am only responding to a weak definition.

[KGtabake]

If you didn't answer Larry Bird....well it's Larry Bird.

[Hair Jordan]

Jordan

He was not even the greatest all around player in his team in the 1990s

Jordan is a better all around player than Pippen. Pippen was an average scorer at best and not a closer. Jordan carried the scoring load for the Bulls and his all around stats suffered for it. Pippen’s all around stats were enhanced because he didn’t have to focus on scoring. It’s nuanced like that.

[Hair Jordan]

If you look at the average assists per game,LBJ is still higher for any not PG of all-time

That’s because his APG totals have been cooked for his entire career. He’s credited with 2-3 phantom assists almost every game. His career average should be closer to 5 APG instead of 7+. Lebron would get credited for an assist if he inbounded the ball to a teammate who sank a full court heave two seconds before the halftime buzzer.

Source please.

Watch any game in full where he’s credited with 7 or 8+ assists. Assists are subjective and therefore easier to spam. So many phantom assists that it’s laughable. Hand the ball to AD, watch him dribble to his left 4X, pump fake twice, pivot, step thru travel across the lane, bank in a floater and credit Lebron for “assisting” on the FG

[Iwasawitness]

Please.

I was off 1 assist point. Lebron, to me, is on the tier of MJ, Kobe, Curry, etc. How am I hating when I rank him higher than anybody on the list in this thread?

If you want to have a legit debate, define what an all around player is. Otherwise, we're just going to compare how big our private parts are and sound like a bunch of idiots.

Someone already did and your laughable response to it was that LeBron doesn't kick enough nuts to qualify. It's very clear at this point that you are trolling.

No he said an all around player is a player who did everything. It was a weak definition. By definition a player who literally does everything is not Lebron; it's guys like Rodman and Draymond. That's literally doing everything. I am only responding to a weak definition.

That's literally what an all around player is dude. Enough already.

That’s because his APG totals have been cooked for his entire career. He’s credited with 2-3 phantom assists almost every game. His career average should be closer to 5 APG instead of 7+. Lebron would get credited for an assist if he inbounded the ball to a teammate who sank a full court heave two seconds before the halftime buzzer.

Source please.

Watch any game in full where he’s credited with 7 or 8+ assists. Assists are subjective and therefore easier to spam. So many phantom assists that it’s laughable. Hand the ball to AD, watch him dribble to his left 4X, pump fake twice, pivot, step thru travel across the lane, bank in a floater and credit Lebron for “assisting” on the FG

Alright so you literally have nothing. Got it.

[nikster]

This guy has some excellent points.

Jordan stuck with the team when they were way outmatched and took the mentality of making the team tougher over all of those years of being way understaffed (Pippen stated that Jordan had him guard him in practices as well). Lebron teamed up whenever outmatched and the Heatles were immediately the most talented team in the league… and then 2011.

Jordan also didn’t play for stats, he was going to shoot and take over simply for the win. Players actually did say you didn’t look him in the eye because he’d take it as a challenge, and the further he went regular season - playoffs - finals,

the stronger he got. I remember seeing a stat where both Lebron and Kobe’s 50 point games were 75% against losing teams (both players were right around that mark), and 73 percent of Jordan’s were against winning teams, plenty who were strong. Think 63 against the Celtics in the playoffs or 69 against the Cavs, a defensively strong team with light out shooting.

The initial outmatched team Jordan had around him he didn't make tougher, they were entirely replaced by a competent GM.

That’s not true. The 90 team was made stronger and they’ve attested to this in interviews.

We also know how intense Jordan got about practices and that Pippen credited part of his development toJordan pushing him and having him guard him in practice.

Then there’s the on court accountability, where he’s second to none.

Nobody from his first 2 years with the Bulls would be there for a title. The only one from year 3 that would be there for the title is Paxson. After that they were a 50 win team.

[Hair Jordan]

Someone already did and your laughable response to it was that LeBron doesn't kick enough nuts to qualify. It's very clear at this point that you are trolling.

No he said an all around player is a player who did everything. It was a weak definition. By definition a player who literally does everything is not Lebron; it's guys like Rodman and Draymond. That's literally doing everything. I am only responding to a weak definition.

That's literally what an all around player is dude. Enough already.

Source please.

Watch any game in full where he’s credited with 7 or 8+ assists. Assists are subjective and therefore easier to spam. So many phantom assists that it’s laughable. Hand the ball to AD, watch him dribble to his left 4X, pump fake twice, pivot, step thru travel across the lane, bank in a floater and credit Lebron for “assisting” on the FG

Alright so you literally have nothing. Got it.

There are scores of videos on YouTube if you’d bother to look. It’s the worst kept secret in sports.

[CobraCommander]

Lebron as a pass first player is the biggest myth in NBA history.

No

Yes.

No player who led the league in scoring or is the career points leader or a top 10 PPG guy or a guy who scored 60+ in a game is a pass first player. Magic was a pass first player. Stockton was a pass first player. Ricky Rubio was a pass first player etc etc.

Lebron spent years passing to people until it became clear he was the best scoring option. We even saw it in Miami. I hate Lebron but he has always deferred to other scorers even in his prime. See Olympics

[CobraCommander]

Out of the players on the poll option, it's definitely Bird.

It’s bird by a mile- he is so much better than the guys on the list It’s ridiculous-

Only guy in conversation is Jokic - except Birds shoots better and has defensive highlights - like the man played both ends like a demon

[Devin 1L]

By all around, I mean triple double threat: a guy who does a bit of everything. Lebron has been more of a prolific scorer than an all around player; it's hard to classify, but I just don't see him as an all around player like Kidd, Magic, Doncic, etc.

I'm open to a debate on this subject matter because I admit I could be wrong.

Then why not just make a list of the All-Time Triple Double leaders, or most Triple Doubles in a season, and call it a day?

This feels like a stealth LeBron trolling thread. I'm not even a LeBron fan -- just clicked it to see how much he was in the lead only to find he didn't even make the ballot, lol.

Even just by your 'Triple Double threat' standard, LeBron is 5th all time...

And to the other stuff or "a bit of everything," all time ranking:

AST - 4th
STL - 8th
REB - 31st
BLK - 82nd

You're reasoning implies his scoring somehow takes away from his all around-ness. Out of the other major 4 categories, he's top 31 in 3/4. That alone would suggest to me a somewhat all around player; being the #1 all time leading scorer on top of that supports being an 'all around player,' not taking away from.

Wow you guys are legit sensitive

Sensitive?

I'm fairly unbiased here, I think. I'm not, nor ever been, a LeBron fan (not that I dislike him, just never a Cavs/Heat/Lakers/LeBron fan, specifically.) Not sure where the sensative comes from. I merely think it's a dumb basketball take.

It's your thread -- you made a thread soliciting opinions for the best 'all around player.' I'm just pointing out how I believe that arguably the best all around player not even making your ballot seems kind of absurd.

The fact that your reply is merely that 'I'm sensitive' is, frankly, kind of indicative of the fact that you don't have any real compelling argument to the contrary of my point.

leaving lebron off that poll is obvious trolling

there is no other correct answer

I'm not budging. Sorry dude, create your own thread if you believe this. I didn't include Nash or Stockton and they are more versatile than Lebron.

And... there it is folks. Trolling no longer in stealth mode, lol.

[NoStatsGuy]

I'm not budging. Sorry dude, create your own thread if you believe this. I didn't include Nash or Stockton and they are more versatile than Lebron.

i dont care if you budge or not. dont ask whos the best all around player of all time, when you dont wanna hear the correct answer

Then define the criteria. This is the first step to a logical debate. We're just gonna go in circles if we can't properly define what we are arguing over.

i mean... its pretty much commonly agreed on. "all around player" covers every aspect of the game on the court. what do we need to define? a new genre of player that excludes lebron so we can discredit him?

you make me sound like a lebron homer, thats why im not responding to you anymore

if you didnt mean all around player fine, but im pretty confident most guys here have a good idea what that means. we dont need to engineer new criteria, to make the title work.