Laker's supporting cast - over rated ?

[TonyMontana]

It's an excuse for if/when the Lakers lose. It's an excuse to get Kobe out of blame for if/when he can't lead the Lakers to a title as a #1 option.

Why dont we wait till the Laker seasons comes to an end one way or another until you make these accusations, cause Im a Laker fan and I think my team will win the Chip this year, at least I hope they will, and if they dont then I wont blame anyone but MY TEAM if they fail to do so. No excuses on anybodys part but the team and its coaching staff if they fall short of a title.
FAIR ENOUGH.

Oh and one more thing.
A Laker fan didnt start this thread, according to his post and his claim AS A LAKER HATER he felt the need to start this thread and point out how soft the Lakers are and pointed out his version of why were are overrated, so if you want to call out Laker fans for coming up with excuses incase they lose maybe you should start from the begining of this thread instead of divning into it at the butt end and claim ALL LAKER FANS are coming up with excuses.

[Wade2k6]

It's an excuse for if/when the Lakers lose. It's an excuse to get Kobe out of blame for if/when he can't lead the Lakers to a title as a #1 option.

Why dont we wait till the Laker seasons comes to an end one way or another until you make these accusations, cause Im a Laker fan and I think my team will win the Chip this year, at least I hope they will, and if they dont then I wont blame anyone but MY TEAM if they fail to do so. No excuses on anybodys part but the team and its coaching staff if they fall short of a title.
FAIR ENOUGH.

That's why I said if/when. IF they lose, most Laker fans will give majority of the blame to everybody else but Kobe. WHEN the Lakers win, most of the LA fans will give Kobe all the credit and say he was the reason they won despite if he plays great or very poor

[Dat Pass]

It's an excuse for if/when the Lakers lose. It's an excuse to get Kobe out of blame for if/when he can't lead the Lakers to a title as a #1 option.

Why dont we wait till the Laker seasons comes to an end one way or another until you make these accusations, cause Im a Laker fan and I think my team will win the Chip this year, at least I hope they will, and if they dont then I wont blame anyone but MY TEAM if they fail to do so. No excuses on anybodys part but the team and its coaching staff if they fall short of a title.
FAIR ENOUGH.

That's why I said if/when. IF they lose, most Laker fans will give majority of the blame to everybody else but Kobe. WHEN the Lakers win, most of the LA fans will give Kobe all the credit and say he was the reason they won despite if he plays great or very poor

Its the same with every fanbase.

Why did the Heat lose to the Hawks this year? Have the worst record last year, or get swept by the Bulls 2 years ago?

Why did the Cavs lose to the Celtics last year, or the Spurs in the Finals?

All of the answers to those questions are going to be excuses.

[TonyMontana]

It's an excuse for if/when the Lakers lose. It's an excuse to get Kobe out of blame for if/when he can't lead the Lakers to a title as a #1 option.

Why dont we wait till the Laker seasons comes to an end one way or another until you make these accusations, cause Im a Laker fan and I think my team will win the Chip this year, at least I hope they will, and if they dont then I wont blame anyone but MY TEAM if they fail to do so. No excuses on anybodys part but the team and its coaching staff if they fall short of a title.
FAIR ENOUGH.

That's why I said if/when. IF they lose, most Laker fans will give majority of the blame to everybody else but Kobe. WHEN the Lakers win, most of the LA fans will give Kobe all the credit and say he was the reason they won despite if he plays great or very poor

Im sorry but Im a Laker fan and if we dont make it this year Im going to blame whoever that didnt step up and contribute as needed to.
For example, last night a few players were MIA, but Kobe busted his arse and basically took this team on his back and did everything that he had to do.
He made sure his teammates were in the game early, He penetrated the D and when he was doubled or he had no where to go he dished the ball out. He busted he arse on D and even got a tech for what he felt was a bad call.
If we lost would I blame Kobe for our loss. Not really, why would I blame Kobe if to me as a ball player and a fan he did everything right. I mean some of you guys are forgetting that this is a team sport. You cant blame one person for a game that involves 5 on 5 and 3 reffs and 4 qt.

I just cant see the logic of blaming one individual or crediting one individual for a team sport that involves so many others.

[BallersTalk]

There are many times that the Lakers supporting cast is good. Last night wasn't really one of them.

Kobe is the one who drove and dished out for wide open 3 pters. The only thing the supporting cast got right last night as crashing the O-Boards.

That was really the story of the game. Rebounding...Both Coach Karl and the commentators of the game said that the Nuggets' gameplan was to stop Gasol. And they did a decent job but they couldn't stop him from crashing the boards.

[Showtime:Part2]

what i did NOT expect was vujacic and fisher to miss so many wide open 3s. we simply can't space the floor because those guys can't hit, and it's ruining our offense.

You do know that Kobe's cast is shooting 42% from downtown in the playoffs? LeBron's cast is shooting 35%. WTF do you guys want? You have a big man giving you 18/11/55% a night. Odom averaging a double-double and your shooters shooting a terrific % from 3pt line. WTF do you want? Want your team to play better? Then pray Kobe shoots better and stops stinking it up every other night.

This thread is a joke. It's like you guys have realized Kobe is no longer that good and likely to blow another postseason run with his inconsistency. And thus the creation of this giant EXCUSE thread. See, the groupies KNOW Kobe has no excuses. They KNOW how talented this team is. But they have also lost confidence in Kobe and don't feel like he can finally win them a championship. They need SOMEONE to take the fall when/if that happens. This is who these Kobe boys are...it's always been "anyone but Kobe" to them. When things don't go as planned, blame anyone and everyone not named Kobe. It's pathetic.

ATTN: STAT MODIFICATION AT ITS FINEST.

let's look at the 3 role players averaging the most 3ptA outside of kobe
fisher: 24% from downtown in playoffs
vujacic: 31%
ariza: 48%

i haven't said a bad thing about ariza this whole time. in fact i've praised him continuously. but we need our guards to step up their play. bynum is averaging 3 fouls in 15 mins a game. odom and ariza are shooting under 55% from the FT line, and the team as a whole is shooting 74% from the line. that isn't going to get it done. the cast has to step it up. the problem is moreso the minutes phil distributes for the cast. if we played only farmar and brown and benched fisher and vujacic, we would be much better. we also gotta find a way for andrew to stop getting into foul trouble.

[Silver Bullet]

what i did NOT expect was vujacic and fisher to miss so many wide open 3s. we simply can't space the floor because those guys can't hit, and it's ruining our offense.

You do know that Kobe's cast is shooting 42% from downtown in the playoffs? LeBron's cast is shooting 35%. WTF do you guys want? You have a big man giving you 18/11/55% a night. Odom averaging a double-double and your shooters shooting a terrific % from 3pt line. WTF do you want? Want your team to play better? Then pray Kobe shoots better and stops stinking it up every other night.

This thread is a joke. It's like you guys have realized Kobe is no longer that good and likely to blow another postseason run with his inconsistency. And thus the creation of this giant EXCUSE thread. See, the groupies KNOW Kobe has no excuses. They KNOW how talented this team is. But they have also lost confidence in Kobe and don't feel like he can finally win them a championship. They need SOMEONE to take the fall when/if that happens. This is who these Kobe boys are...it's always been "anyone but Kobe" to them. When things don't go as planned, blame anyone and everyone not named Kobe. It's pathetic.

ATTN: STAT MODIFICATION AT ITS FINEST.

let's look at the 3 role players averaging the most 3ptA outside of kobe
fisher: 24% from downtown in playoffs
vujacic: 31%
ariza: 48%

i haven't said a bad thing about ariza this whole time. in fact i've praised him continuously. but we need our guards to step up their play. bynum is averaging 3 fouls in 15 mins a game. odom and ariza are shooting under 55% from the FT line, and the team as a whole is shooting 74% from the line. that isn't going to get it done. the cast has to step it up. the problem is moreso the minutes phil distributes for the cast. if we played only farmar and brown and benched fisher and vujacic, we would be much better. we also gotta find a way for andrew to stop getting into foul trouble.

I would add however, that even if Fisher, Vujacic and Walton were putting up 60% from 3 point range, it wouldn't mean they are playing well, because the Lakers biggest problem is their defense and toughness. The Nuggets got everything they wanted last night. Were it not for Billups missing 4 free throws, the Lakers probably would've lost.

I don't know why Phil Jackson is continuing to stick with Fisher (yes, he did make a clutch 3 last night), he continues to launch impossible shots and is not doing **** on the defensive end.

[TonyMontana]

I would add however, that even if Fisher, Vujacic and Walton were putting up 60% from 3 point range, it wouldn't mean they are playing well, because the Lakers biggest problem is their defense and toughness. The Nuggets got everything they wanted last night. Were it not for Billups missing 4 free throws, the Lakers probably would've lost.

Okay and if the reffs would've called Billups foot out of bounds on his last trey then the Lakers would've still won by one point.

[Bgil]

I love how all the blame is put on the supporting cast, but no blame is ever put on Kobe. Kobe didn't show up for game 7, his supporting cast did. And now all the sudden it's "OH WELL DID YOU SEE THE GAMES BEFORE??"

'
Lol @ the idea of Kobe not showing up. Please stop depending on box scores for your analysis.

in fact, kobe took great shots in game 7 outside of that super deep bizaro three at the end of the first half. several of his misses drew so much attention that the bigs litterally walked down the lane to recover the miss and put it back in. He fed the post beatifully, controlled the tempo, played great d, and didn't force anything. Notice that Kobe was a plus 19 or so despite not playing a ton of minutes and just coasting through garbage time.

Not saying you're totally wrong, but how the hell does Kobe get a pass that absolutely no one else would? Jordan would've never gotten it. Shaq would've never gotten it. Lebron doesn't get it. And how does it not pretty much destroy the OPs argument? The Lakers would've probably won this game even if Kobe didn't play. Thats how great the supporting cast was that night. Its not really that big of a deal that Kobe went 4-12, cause he really didn't need to do much. However, to act like Kobe had some great game, and without him they would've lost is a bit ridiculous. Pau Gasol easily was the best player of the game.

You're just talking out of your ass. Shaq always got the exact same treatment from me. in fact, the effect Kobe has on the game is called the Shaq effect. I routinely talk about other players like Nash, Kidd, Farmar, Arenas, Walton, Bowen, and Odom having similar effects outside of the box score. Lebron and paul don't get the same love because nearly everything they do well can be directly attributed to a box score stat. Jordan too.

An example would be to compare the players defensively. When Wade, Lebron, and Paul play defense it usually results in steals and blocks... box score stats. Guys like Kobe, Bowen, Battier and even Melo last night focus more on challenging shots, denying position, and ball denial.

[TonyHeat45]

I'm never going to understand why Kobe gets credit for **** that every superstar does.

[Bgil]

It's pretty telling hat you guys are only observing the game at a very superficial level when you say the Lakers would have definitely won the game without him... even though he was a plus 20, was the only major source of penetration, and played great defense. It's ridiculous to think that Sasha or Brown could have run the triangle sequences as effectively, switched on to Artest as effectively, or commanded as much attention defensively. Gasol has already been getting swamped with defenders due to the lack of having Radman around and now you think removing Kobe would have no affect?

I'm willing to bet the hardcore Laker fans simply know more about the game than fans of any other team. For example, Lakersground.net has the ENTIRE triangle system diagramed and posted in their forums. They do a write-up after every game detailing the action of each player... each shot, each major defensive play, each assist, each defensive lapse.

We were doing the plus-minus thing LONG before anyone else was doing it. Popcornmachine.net does plus/minus for each player for each time they check in and out of the game. You can see which team made a run, when they made it, and who was in the game at the time.

Like I said before. We're thinking chess and you guys are still playing checkers (box scores). Don't hate because you dont want to put in the time to understand the inner workings of the game.

[Bgil]

I'm never going to understand why Kobe gets credit for **** that every superstar does.

Because you're not seeing what I'm seeing. for instance, lets compare Melo vs Bron. Remember in the last Lakers/Cavs game when Kobe got super deep position on Lebron and hit that jump hook on him? Then Remember that rainbow fade Kobe hit over Lebron towards the end of the game? There was zero chance of that happening against Melo last night. Melo was fighting Kobe for every inch on the block. Kobe couldn't even dream of getting deep position of Melo, easily catching the ball, and hitting an easy shot. Honestly, I think Kobe would have had a better chance against Kmart on the block than Melo last night. Lebron is bigger ans stronger than both Kobe and Melo yet he couldn't abuse Kobe down low, on offense or defense, the way Melo did.

Kobe shot better this game than he did against Cleveland but Melo played 10x better vs Kobe than Lebron did.

[eatyourchildren]

Every non-Laker fan props up the supporting cast's offense on this thread and rips their defense in other threads.

Do you think you're sliding this by us? Like we don't notice that?

How can you go from LOL'ing yourself to death in game threads about all the open layups and dunks Nene and Brooks got and then come in here and talk about how great the supporting cast is because they shoot 42% 3's.

It's a disingenuous way of going about this and you know it. And guess what, we know it too.

[guy1]

I just want to say anyone that still thinks Lebron has a better supporting cast then Kobe should feel like absolute morons right now. While Lebron has played like one of the greatest players ever in this series, they are still down 3-1, would be down 4-0 if it wasn't for an amazing shot from Lebron. Lebron has kept his team in every game. The only reason the Cavs are not the team with the 3-1 lead is cause Lebron's supporting cast has been really bad. I'm not trying to excuse Lebron cause he's had his bad moments as well, (missed free throw with a minute left, 8 turnovers last night), but there is no way the Magic would have such a commanding lead if Lebron's support played even a little better.

On the other hand, Kobe has had bad games in the playoffs where he shot awful and the Lakers were still in the game or even won the game. Kobe has yet to have a game like any of Lebron's this series and still lost. Anyone that still thinks Lebron has a better supporting cast is completely delusional.

[shobe_81]

I just want to say anyone that still thinks Lebron has a better supporting cast then Kobe should feel like absolute morons right now. While Lebron has played like one of the greatest players ever in this series, they are still down 3-1, would be down 4-0 if it wasn't for an amazing shot from Lebron. Lebron has kept his team in every game. The only reason the Cavs are not the team with the 3-1 lead is cause Lebron's supporting cast has been really bad. I'm not trying to excuse Lebron cause he's had his bad moments as well, (missed free throw with a minute left, 8 turnovers last night), but there is no way the Magic would have such a commanding lead if Lebron's support played even a little better.

On the other hand, Kobe has had bad games in the playoffs where he shot awful and the Lakers were still in the game or even won the game. Kobe has yet to have a game like any of Lebron's this series and still lost. Anyone that still thinks Kobe has a better supporting cast is completely delusional.

Blowing a 14 and 23 point lead respectively isn't exactly one of the worst supporting cast. Maybe it has to do with the dribble-dribble-dribble 3'point fadeaways like he did at the end of the 3rd quarter last night. When on the other hand Cavs had a great thing going through ball-movement. Maybe yes the Cavs supporting cast isn't good like the Lakers offensively, but defensively it's another story.

And the Lakers outside of Ariza, Gasol, & sometimes Odom aren't exactly a thing of beauty of supporting cast you know! Maybe you should watch Fisher, Sasha, Bynum, Farmar play basketball sometimes.

And Kobe playing bad? He has had a good series, he's not dominating the ball and still coming clutch in the game, especially in game 1 and 3. By the way, Kobe is averaging 1.25 Turnovers and Lebron is averaging 4.50 Turnovers

We were crowning the Cavs as the NBA Finals Champs when the playoffs started, and now some Cavs fans are comparing the same team to the 06 Lakers in other thread.
LOL

[guy1]

'
Lol @ the idea of Kobe not showing up. Please stop depending on box scores for your analysis.

in fact, kobe took great shots in game 7 outside of that super deep bizaro three at the end of the first half. several of his misses drew so much attention that the bigs litterally walked down the lane to recover the miss and put it back in. He fed the post beatifully, controlled the tempo, played great d, and didn't force anything. Notice that Kobe was a plus 19 or so despite not playing a ton of minutes and just coasting through garbage time.

Not saying you're totally wrong, but how the hell does Kobe get a pass that absolutely no one else would? Jordan would've never gotten it. Shaq would've never gotten it. Lebron doesn't get it. And how does it not pretty much destroy the OPs argument? The Lakers would've probably won this game even if Kobe didn't play. Thats how great the supporting cast was that night. Its not really that big of a deal that Kobe went 4-12, cause he really didn't need to do much. However, to act like Kobe had some great game, and without him they would've lost is a bit ridiculous. Pau Gasol easily was the best player of the game.

You're just talking out of your ass. Shaq always got the exact same treatment from me. in fact, the effect Kobe has on the game is called the Shaq effect. I routinely talk about other players like Nash, Kidd, Farmar, Arenas, Walton, Bowen, and Odom having similar effects outside of the box score. Lebron and paul don't get the same love because nearly everything they do well can be directly attributed to a box score stat. Jordan too.

An example would be to compare the players defensively. When Wade, Lebron, and Paul play defense it usually results in steals and blocks... box score stats. Guys like Kobe, Bowen, Battier and even Melo last night focus more on challenging shots, denying position, and ball denial.

Dude shut up. You're clearly talking out of your ass if you think anyone would consider Jordan, Shaq, or Lebron to have a great game by shooting 4-12. Kobe does get a pass cause they won the game and he did have a positive impact for the reasons you stated, but its pretty clear that the supporting cast, not Kobe, should get most of the credit for that win, cause thats how it would be for any other player in the same situation. And its not like Kobe really did much else outside of scoring.

[guy1]

I just want to say anyone that still thinks Lebron has a better supporting cast then Kobe should feel like absolute morons right now. While Lebron has played like one of the greatest players ever in this series, they are still down 3-1, would be down 4-0 if it wasn't for an amazing shot from Lebron. Lebron has kept his team in every game. The only reason the Cavs are not the team with the 3-1 lead is cause Lebron's supporting cast has been really bad. I'm not trying to excuse Lebron cause he's had his bad moments as well, (missed free throw with a minute left, 8 turnovers last night), but there is no way the Magic would have such a commanding lead if Lebron's support played even a little better.

On the other hand, Kobe has had bad games in the playoffs where he shot awful and the Lakers were still in the game or even won the game. Kobe has yet to have a game like any of Lebron's this series and still lost. Anyone that still thinks Kobe has a better supporting cast is completely delusional.

LOL

LOL my bad. I changed it.

[wreck]

Because they didn't give him the ball. He's one of the best low post scorers in the NBA and he only got one post up opportunity that I can recall. Apparently Kobe's twisting fadeaways are the preferred shot in L.A.

Seems to be the trend amongst Bryant fans. Whenever the fakers lose, and the rest of the starters shoot well over 50%, they are still blamed for the loss. In those games, Bryant normally goes his usual 12-30 FGA.

[C'mon Cavs]

Because they didn't give him the ball. He's one of the best low post scorers in the NBA and he only got one post up opportunity that I can recall. Apparently Kobe's twisting fadeaways are the preferred shot in L.A.

Seems to be the trend amongst Bryant fans. Whenever the fakers lose, and the rest of the starters shoot well over 50%, they are still blamed for the loss. In those games, Bryant normally goes his usual 12-30 FGA.

Kobe's been great in the Conference Finals though. I'm not taking away from him...but Gasol needs more touches in the post. He's gotten more since game 1 when I was complaining about his lack of touches, but he still needs a bit more IMO.

What's he shooting, 63%? That's ridiculous. Nene and Birdman look like high school kids trying to guard him. They should play through him in stretches and see what happens.

[shobe_81]

You guys are basing the touches on the amount of shots he's attempted!

He DOES get plenty of touches. The problem is, as Tim Legler pointed out in the NBA Fastbreak, Gasol plays with the ball too much before making his move.

A lot of the time he'll get the ball,

1. hold it over his head for 3 seconds, survey the floor,
2. look at the defender,
3. then post up the defender and began his dribble, and when the helper comes,
4. he turns the other way to shoot the hook or passes it out,

what happens? 10+ seconds have gone off the shot clock or he takes a contested hook shot.

The problem, he's thinking too much rather than just making his freaking move. He needs to be decisive and quick with the ball like he was in late 4th of game 3.

What happens when you take it slow and survey the options? You become predictable and that's what Gasol has been doing.

So really, he'll get the touches, but he wont shoot the ball, and then we look at the box score and see that he's gone 8-11 and ask why he hasn't gotten more touches when in fact he has but he doesn't make his decision to shoot. He's being too passive and slow with the ball.

And sometimes I just wish he'd DEMAND the ball and call for it when he's in the post. Instead of Fisher taking a contested 21Ft jumpshot, he should pass it to Pau.