MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[Yuri36]

The point is that Giannis even when he is having a bad game on the offensive side of the floor he is still impacting the game very big on defense. And that's why the elite 2-way players are the best. Because when Luka or Harden having a bad game on offense they are pretty much useless in the game..

Well Luka did have some bad games on offense this season but he can or did still impact the game with his play making ability. For example very recently vs Kings. Sure he had 25 pts but also had 6 TO's and it didn't feel like he was shooting that good overall 8/18. But had 17 assists and 15 rebounds. So there is more to his offensive game than just scoring. Obviously he is not a lock down defender but that was or will never be his job anyway.

Harden on the other hand is much more scarier. He can win games on his own but often he also shots them out of the game completely and everyone else in the process suffer as well. The fact that one can adapt his game and still will his team to a win with other tools i think that makes Luka more scarier and valuable than Harden.

But don't get me wrong, i'm not arguing that either one of those two should be compared or even be ahead of Giannis. To me so far, Giannis is the MVP.

Defense is still the half and equal part of the game, you can't just like that ignore it. Luka as great as he is when he is having a bad shooting night just because he could give you some assists doesn't count the same as someone who can impacting the game both ends of the floor. But for sure Luka is a team player, he is making his teamates better, Harden for sure not.

It's obviously not (especially since the introduction of zone defense) as it's way harder to be a great scorer than to be a great defender.
Why do you think the ones who get paid the most are 99% of times far better scorers than defenders?

[The Lazy Potato]

Well Luka did have some bad games on offense this season but he can or did still impact the game with his play making ability. For example very recently vs Kings. Sure he had 25 pts but also had 6 TO's and it didn't feel like he was shooting that good overall 8/18. But had 17 assists and 15 rebounds. So there is more to his offensive game than just scoring. Obviously he is not a lock down defender but that was or will never be his job anyway.

Harden on the other hand is much more scarier. He can win games on his own but often he also shots them out of the game completely and everyone else in the process suffer as well. The fact that one can adapt his game and still will his team to a win with other tools i think that makes Luka more scarier and valuable than Harden.

But don't get me wrong, i'm not arguing that either one of those two should be compared or even be ahead of Giannis. To me so far, Giannis is the MVP.

Defense is still the half and equal part of the game, you can't just like that ignore it. Luka as great as he is when he is having a bad shooting night just because he could give you some assists doesn't count the same as someone who can impacting the game both ends of the floor. But for sure Luka is a team player, he is making his teamates better, Harden for sure not.

It's obviously not (especially since the introduction of zone defense) as it's way harder to be a great scorer than to be a great defender.
Why do you think the ones who get paid the most are 99% of times far better scorers than defenders?

Teams rarely playing zone defense tho and for a player to expecting every time for someone else to cover his mistakes on defense is just bad in any case. being an elite defender have great value and impacting the game big. But for sure they will value more a fancy scorer or a great scorer, i don't agree with that but it is what it is.

What i said tho it's true, Defense is still the half and equal part of the game and being a player who can have big impact both ends of the floor is even more great than being just an offencive player.

The best players in the game will always be the 2-way players and that have nothing to do with how much money they earn.

[leolozon]

Defense is still the half and equal part of the game, you can't just like that ignore it. Luka as great as he is when he is having a bad shooting night just because he could give you some assists doesn't count the same as someone who can impacting the game both ends of the floor. But for sure Luka is a team player, he is making his teamates better, Harden for sure not.

It's obviously not (especially since the introduction of zone defense) as it's way harder to be a great scorer than to be a great defender.
Why do you think the ones who get paid the most are 99% of times far better scorers than defenders?

Teams rarely playing zone defense tho and for a player to expecting every time for someone else to cover his mistakes on defense is just bad in any case. being an elite defender have great value and impacting the game big. But for sure they will value more a fancy scorer or a great scorer, i don't agree with that but it is what it is.

What i said tho it's true, Defense is still the half and equal part of the game and being a player who can have big impact both ends of the floor is even more great than being just an offencive player.

The best players in the game will always be the 2-way players and that have nothing to do with how much money they earn.

Individual Defense isn’t half of the game, certainly not for perimeter players. I so much dislike that saying that derives from "defense is half the game as a team, so it must be true for each player". You can’t cover 5 people on defense, not even 2.

You can go in iso mode or have a higher usage rate and be responsible for 40% of the offense. It’s not equal for individual players.

[Archx]

It's obviously not (especially since the introduction of zone defense) as it's way harder to be a great scorer than to be a great defender.
Why do you think the ones who get paid the most are 99% of times far better scorers than defenders?

Teams rarely playing zone defense tho and for a player to expecting every time for someone else to cover his mistakes on defense is just bad in any case. being an elite defender have great value and impacting the game big. But for sure they will value more a fancy scorer or a great scorer, i don't agree with that but it is what it is.

What i said tho it's true, Defense is still the half and equal part of the game and being a player who can have big impact both ends of the floor is even more great than being just an offencive player.

The best players in the game will always be the 2-way players and that have nothing to do with how much money they earn.

Individual Defense isn’t half of the game, certainly not for perimeter player. I so much dislike that saying. You can’t cover 5 people on defense, not even 2.

You can go in iso mode or have a higher usage rate and be responsible for 40% of the offense. It’s not equal for individual players.

It looks like everyone is getting easily to the rim these days anyway. I would argue that rim protectors are much more valuable than perimeter guys. Obviously that's not 100% true but still, you get my point. Everything is happening outside on the perimeter or around the basket. And no one can guard top players 1v1 anyway. Even Kawhi tried guarding Luka couple of times 1v1 and he got away from him with a couple of dribbles.. So having guys who can protect the rim and disrupt layups is extremely valuable these days in my opinion.

[dhsilv2]

Teams rarely playing zone defense tho and for a player to expecting every time for someone else to cover his mistakes on defense is just bad in any case. being an elite defender have great value and impacting the game big. But for sure they will value more a fancy scorer or a great scorer, i don't agree with that but it is what it is.

What i said tho it's true, Defense is still the half and equal part of the game and being a player who can have big impact both ends of the floor is even more great than being just an offencive player.

The best players in the game will always be the 2-way players and that have nothing to do with how much money they earn.

Individual Defense isn’t half of the game, certainly not for perimeter player. I so much dislike that saying. You can’t cover 5 people on defense, not even 2.

You can go in iso mode or have a higher usage rate and be responsible for 40% of the offense. It’s not equal for individual players.

It looks like everyone is getting easily to the rim these days anyway. I would argue that rim protectors are much more valuable than perimeter guys. Obviously that's not 100% true but still, you get my point. Everything is happening outside on the perimeter or around the basket. And no one can guard top players 1v1 anyway. Even Kawhi tried guarding Luka couple of times 1v1 and he got away from him with a couple of dribbles.. So having guys who can protect the rim and disrupt layups is extremely valuable these days in my opinion.

I think a better way to look at it is that there are more high impact offensive players in general that defenders. Elite defenders are a bit more of an outlier and thus more valuable when you find one. There's are however a lot more really bad defenders who end up hurting their team on that end nearly as much as they help on offense.

So while half of a player's value might not be on defense, it remains half the game and bad defenders are still a serious problem in basketball.

[DutchManDanFan]

There are a few parameters for MVP:
1 Team record
2 Individual stats
3 Individual impact - offense
4 Individual impact - defense

If there's a big gap on one or two of these parameters then it's an easy choise. Giannis is far ahead with 1 and 4. Only LeBron is somewhat close with 1, but the Lakers could very well lose 2 during the Bucks trip to Paris (Lakers play @Brooklyn, @Phily and v Clippers).
With 2 and/or 3 Harden or LeBron might be in the lead but Giannis is not far behind. At least not far enough to compensate for the gap at 1. If this gap grows, can we start talking about unanimous?

Wins minus losses for Bucks is 33. For every loss they have 6.5 wins.

W-L and W/L:
Lakers: 25 - 3.8
Clippers: 18 - 2.4
Miami/Utah/Denver: 17 - 2.3
Toronto: 15 - 2.1
Boston: 14 - 2.0
Phily: 13 - 1.8
Indiana: 12 - 1.75
Dallas: 11 - 1.7
Houston: 10 - 1.6

Bucks need 21-16 record for 60 wins. 31-6 (after 39-6) for 70 wins looks a lot more likely. I think it will be around 65-68 wins.

[Patches Perry]

There is still half of the season left so anything can happen. Still somewhat a chance for LeBron, a small chance for Luka, a very remote chance for Harden. A recent bad stretch can happen, but we've all know those guys can put up an insanely good stretch and make themselves relevant again. Even not to win it, but certainly create enough noise to swing some 1st place votes.

Good post and I think your rationale is true in cases where win totals are fairly close. Milwaukee is already like 12 games up on Houston/Dallas, and the Lakers are the only team within arms reach of Milwaukee still. So that leaves Giannis and probably LeBron as runner-up, but the one thing that works against LeBron is Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis is the Lakers' leading scorer, rebounder, best defender, blocks/steals leader. LeBron is the quarterback and leader for sure, but Davis is a top 5 performer and will pull votes away.

It's not 100% certainty as things can happen in terms of injuries or improbable slumps, but if Giannis and Milwaukee maintain even a straight line across the finish line, I don't think even an insane stretch by anyone else is going to suffice. I don't see how a 30/13/6 player on a 68-72 win team loses in nearly any scenario, or what a player would have to accomplish in order to beat that out. You would need an insane extended stretch plus Giannis/Milwaukee drop-off.

[Bornstellar]

Lmao at the Pels fan screaming during every FT

[infinite11285]

Where’s the option for Zion? He deserves the consideration.

[DutchManDanFan]

Did Harden give up on the MVP race? Did he decide it’s too much to ask to chase 40+ points every game during a long season?

[scrabbarista]

as of the morning of January 23rd

My spreadsheet only includes 58 players at the moment. While some players (Fred VanVleet?) may be slipping through the cracks, I only have so much metaphorical bandwidth. It is, in fact, an honor even to be nominated.

Since last week:

TOP 5 RISERS
1. Rudy Gobert +2.07 [team record 3-1]
2. Chris Paul +1.58 [3-1]
3. Ben Simmons +1.43 [3-1]
4. Devin Booker +1.16 [2-2]
5. Jayson Tatum +1.13 [2-2]

FALLERS
1. C.J. McCollum -0.29 [team record 1-2]
2. Davis Bertans -0.26 [1-2]
3. DeVonte' Graham -0.22 [0-1]
4. Spencer Dinwiddie -0.15 [0-2]
5. Nikola Vucevic -0.14 [1-3]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOP TEN

1. 15.1 Antetokounmpo, MIL [since last week: even] [+0.15]
2. 14.5 Gobert, UTA [+2] [+2.07]
3. 13.8 Harden, HOU [-1] [-0.03]
4. 13.7 James, LAL [-1] [+0.15]
5. 11.7 Doncic, DAL [even] [+0.19]

6. 11.4 Butler, MIA [even] [+0.60]
7. 10.8 Leonard, LAC [+1] [+0.49]
8. 10.7 Jokic, DEN [-1] [+0.30]
9. 10.4 Lillard, POR [even] [+0.75]
10. 9.7 Paul, OKC [+7] [+1.58]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HM: 4.43 Williamson, NOP [n/a] [+4.43]

Fun Facts: Zion's TS% is .862, his PER is 38.1, and his USG% is 40.7

[scrabbarista]

Where’s the option for Zion? He deserves the consideration.

I got you. Check my MVP rankings in the comment above.

[brettski]

Luka voted into the All Star game ahead of Harden. Gives an indication where media has them on the mvp ladder.

[Dr_Heat]

Luka. The end

[TheBullsDynasty]

I know Luka is in the MVP conversation but that award is most likely going to Giannis.

What do you think about Luka for MIP? The jump he made from his rookie year to sophmore year has been nothing but amazing.

I know the MIP award usually goes to mid level players who jump from being average to good but I think Luka’s case is such a rare occasion that it could be an exception.

[Young gun 6]

I know Luka is in the MVP conversation but that award is most likely going to Giannis.

What do you think about Luka for MIP? The jump he made from his rookie year to sophmore year has been nothing but amazing.

I know the MIP award usually goes to mid level players who jump from being average to good but I think Luka’s case is such a rare occasion that it could be an exception.

Should be Devonte Graham imo.

Has made a bigger leap.

[FinnTheHuman]

Defense is still the half and equal part of the game, you can't just like that ignore it. Luka as great as he is when he is having a bad shooting night just because he could give you some assists doesn't count the same as someone who can impacting the game both ends of the floor. But for sure Luka is a team player, he is making his teamates better, Harden for sure not.

It's obviously not (especially since the introduction of zone defense) as it's way harder to be a great scorer than to be a great defender.
Why do you think the ones who get paid the most are 99% of times far better scorers than defenders?

Teams rarely playing zone defense tho and for a player to expecting every time for someone else to cover his mistakes on defense is just bad in any case. being an elite defender have great value and impacting the game big. But for sure they will value more a fancy scorer or a great scorer, i don't agree with that but it is what it is.

What i said tho it's true, Defense is still the half and equal part of the game and being a player who can have big impact both ends of the floor is even more great than being just an offencive player.

The best players in the game will always be the 2-way players and that have nothing to do with how much money they earn.

Defense is half the game, but you being a great defender won’t impact how a superstar does offensively against you most of the time. KD is gonna get his, he’s gonna have the same quality of look no matter who you are as a defender. Same goes for most other superstar offensive players. That’s why you’re gonna pay Lillard the max and Marcus Smart half of that.

[Osirus89]

Giannis still has the MVP on lock. It's amazing how he pretty much made it an easy decision from like the 5 week of the season.
Mil will probably finish with the best record in the league and they have done well against every other elite team.

[Jadoogar]

Giannis has kind of run away with the MVP at this point. I think Lebron has taken over #2. Harden still has crazy numbers but the rockets playing poorly has definitely pushed him down.

[clyde21]

Giannis
Luka

cloud of dust