76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[Damienfan]

Yo dumping water/ice on the coach is supposed to be for winning playoff games. Embiid is such a clown lul

Really? Dude just got his 1,000th win - only the 10th guy in the history of the league to do it. And you rag on them for celebrating it?

Even by RealGM standards, this is...an interesting take.

I wasn't ragging, I was kidding. I thought Embiid might have been a bit tilted cause his star teammate is being such a turd, and they are #1 in the east early in the season. I didn't know it was Doc's 1000th win. Take a chill pill and stop freaking out over a post on the internet.

Take the L like a man. It's the internet.

[Nuntius]

Hmm, you maybe gotta do your homework more on Fultz here. This is no attack on Fultz but I don't know of any way to frame his play as 'good starter-level production' in ORL--he was put in the best possible position for his game (got to run transition all day and pn'r with a great roll man whenever he wanted to) and his combo of low volume and inefficient play still made him one of the very worst offensive rotation players in the league. 16/4/6 per 36 doesn't sound miserable but when you add it to 3 TOS PER 36 and the league's worst efficiency for a rotation guy (51% TS), those are the type of numbers that you'd have to be an elite role playing defender to earn any minutes with. The basic advanced numbers all bare that out too--RPM has him as the 70th best PG that year in offensive RPM, only PGs with worse OBPMs were 3 or so guys who have all washed out of the league now (e.g. Kris Dunn). Part of that was ORL having literally no one else who could play PG minutes, but he was also getting heavy, heavy development minutes because ORL was investing in him. He also played considerably worse in the games he played the next season before the ACL injury.

Fultz was also a 21-year old kid that had barely basketball in two years. It is quite normal for a young PG to have issues with turnovers and efficiency and considering Fultz's circumstances, I think he played rather well. Definitely better than how a "nutcase" would play.

Also, Fultz stopped playing for the Sixers like 3 months before before he was traded to ORL--Sixers had already put him on the shelf after a few weeks that season and he missed almost 40 games for them before ORL traded for him. Beyond that I'm unclear why the Sixers would be motivated to make Fultz seem 'like a nutcase.' Seems like they had every reason to do the opposite--and indeed since he was such a distressed asset at the time they basically ended up dumping him for nothing (only dumb luck allowed them to get a 1st out of the deal) despite him being a 20 year recent super prospect.

I am not sure what their motivation to make Fultz seem like a nutcase either but they definitely did. They kept leaking medical info and spinning them in a way that put all the blame on Fultz instead of themselves. Nevermind the fact that Fultz's injury was legitimate as confirmed by Orlando's medical team. They actively tanked his value in an attempt to make themselves look like the victims of an uncooperative player and they're likely pulling that same **** right now.

There's also maybe the most pointed fact here: that the "Sixers" are totally different human beings now from in 2018--there's a new president, GM, CEO, and I'm pretty sure every one of their VPs are different too. So if you're saying there's a common strategy or pattern around managing player health, you're asking us to believe that it's emanating from the Sixers' logo and colors and not any actual people who make those decisions.

Ownership is still the same.

[Nuntius]

I told you what I believe, weak parts should be protected, not the Ben Simmons of the world, they can do it themselves.
I am not siding with anybody without checking the facts, and I totally reject your claim that Simmons is a weak part the way a minimum wage worker is with his employer.

In my opinion, you are definitely siding with ownership.

You are making this dumb comments about defenseless people in this business. I am objectively seeing people taking advantage of their position and refusing to do what they signed (and they are handsomely paid) for.
When a team will really bully a player I will comment differently, but it's definitely not this case.

Objectively? No, not really. You subjectively believe that Simmons is taking advantage of his position. You have every right to believe whatever you want but don't pretend that it's a fact. We do not have all the information yet. All we have is the claims of the two sides.

I'll tell you something, there are very few undisputable facts here for us, unless we really have some serious first hand info.
There are a number of data points and the rest is to be interpolated using our judgement.

I agree.

What nobody has been disputing is that the first time Simmons mentioned mental health as the reason why he didn't want to come back was a few weeks ago. That's for me enough to not give him any credibility. You seems to think differently, whatever, we disagree.

I think differently because your first sentence is incorrect. All the reports say that Simmons has asked the NBPA for mental health help since this summer. So, no it didn't start a few weeks ago. It has been an ongoing situation for at least 3-4 months. The fact that it wasn't disclosed to the media doesn't mean anything. No one is required to share anything with the media.

One last point that is very important: in countries with an advanced welfare state (that is not necessarily the US) companies are not paying people who are sick, being it for mental or physical reason, as they don't pay women in pregnancy.
The State is, with the taxes collected. This for good reason, to avoid that people "at risk" would be discriminated at the point of selection.
Most likely, NBA teams have insurances covering them in those cases.
It's hard for me to believe that someone thinks an insurance would not demand clear proof about someone's state and therapies before paying out anything.
And if it's instead it's a public insurance system (like in most of western Europe) me as a citizen would DEMAND that proper controls were in place before my tax money would be directed there. Especially when someone with Simmons's contract is involved.
And unfortunately I have seen plenty of people trying to game the system (really a lot), controls are necessary to protect those one who really need help.

And I'll reiterate what I said before. Siccing PI's on injured workers to see whether they're "faking it" is reprehensible. When someone gets injured during their work then they should be reimbursed. Period. Those in power (be them the state itself or big corporations) have no right to violate anyone's medical rights like that. The fact that you're willing to give them this kind of power (and, in fact, you DEMAND that they have is power) is troubling. But maybe that's why Kaczyński is in power in your country. Giving in to authoritarianism is never the answer, imo, but you are free to think differently.

[Nuntius]

Huh? Fultz barely played for the Sixers precisely because they tried to be extra careful with him. I am not sure what the Sixers did wrong here. For what it's worth, Fultz and his shooting form hasnt really recoverd from that "injury" to this day so Orlando's medical team hasnt faired any better. I get why Fultz did what he did (he was trying to save his career), but i dont see how Fultz trying to find a doctor to give him a diagnosis (TOS) that was virtually impossible to verify reflects badly on the Sixers medical team. His shooting form is still terrible and its been some years since he moved away from the Sixers medical team. In any case, i dont see how Fultz is in any way relevant here.

Fultz is very relevant, in my opinion, because his situation gives us insight into how the Sixers operate as a franchise and how they use their medical team to get the spin they want with the media. The Sixers tried to portray Fultz as a nutcase. They tried to say that he was "just scared to shoot". The media ate that **** up and then sold this spin to NBA fans who kept calling Fultz a nutcase, a mental midget and all that good stuff. I was here when it happened so I remember what was told quite vividly. It's not all that different from the slurs that people direct now at Simmons. Some people are very happy and very ready to attack players at the behest of big corporations.

Orlando's medical team verified that Fultz's injury was indeed serious when they traded for him. So, his missed that season and then returned the next where he produced fairly well. Not All-Star level production, of course, but good starter level production. Pretty good for a "mental midget nutcase who's afraid to shoot", huh?

His shooting numbers, by the way, were markedly better in Orlando. He shot 73% from the FT line (up from 47.6% in his rookie season and 56.8% in his sophomore season) and 41.6% from the mid-range (up from 25% in his rookie season and 24.4% in his sophomore season). Sure, the 3-point range isn't there yet but you can't say that these numbers aren't an improvement. So, Orlando's medical team definitely did the right thing here, unlike Philly's medical team. It just sucks that Fultz tore his ACL this January.

Simmons has been treated by the same medical team (which, bear in mind, has changed over the years) multiple times over these years and he never had an issue with them. It's reasonable to say that the team's medical team might not be completely impartial but Simmons shouldnt have any reason to mistrust them. Also, i dont see how the Sixers are discrediting the NBPA medical proffessional (who shouldnt be considered impartial either). The only issue at the moment is that the team has the right to know what Simmons is doing, whether he has been diagnosed with any mental illness and what are the steps and the timeline for his return and Simmons' side is not cooperating. The same thing that any team would do with any injured player somehow has become a matter of controversy and debate here.

Read my post again, please. I never said that the Sixers are discrediting the NBPA medical professional. I specifically said that it was the people in this thread and not the Sixers who are discrediting the NBPA medical professional. I tried to be very clear on that.

The excerpt was pretty clear. If the player is seeing a physician (psychiatrist or not) to get a diagnosis about an illness/injury then the team has the right to know what it's going on. i might add that it is pretty reeasonable for a player that is not able to provide his services for a medical reason to provide some proof for that and to be in contact with the team in the meantime. Again, this is a pretty standard and reasonable practice, i am not sure why the Sixers request is viewed as something extraordinary by some people here.

Unless we're not talking about a mental health related medical service which is exactly what is happening in this case. That's why I said that the excerpt was pretty murky. Because that exception under B seems to apply in this case.

NBA level athletes should never ever be compared with normal workers/employees since their bargaining power is orders of magnitude bigger, which is why they are getting these ridiculous salaries. No one is defending the owners here, but trying to compare NBA athletes, and stars at that, to normal people working 9-5 and claim that whatever agreement they negotiate with the owners will be relevant to and impact the working rights of normal people is indeed disingenuous.

I fully disagree with everything in that part of your post. There is a pretty clear employer-employee relationship between NBA teams and NBA players. The power dynamics aren't all that different from any other employer-employee relationship either. Owners typically make much, much more than players do. Owners profit off of the players' labor. Making millions does not erase all these dynamics. All it does is make them very handsomenly-paid employees. Still employees, though.

But Fultz WAS a nut case. No spin necessary

Nope. He had a legitimate injury that his team's medical team failed to diagnose and then they tried to spin their failure into him being a nutcase. It seems it worked on some people, though. Congrats, I guess?

[Sixerscan]

Right, that's kind of what I'm saying. There is nothing else to go off of. All we have is the Sixers saying, " We asked him for stuff and he didn't give it to us." Along with assumptions as to what they're asking for. We really don't know what they're asking for or what Simmons has given them. Pretty much all of the reports we have to go off of have been from the Sixers. It just sounds like there could be a lot we don't know.

Seems pretty clear to me, he's not sharing anything other than he's not mentally ready to play. Which, by the way, is not an actual mental illness last I checked.

No, but it can definitely be a symptom of an actual mental illness he may not feel comfortable sharing.

Ok well if he's not comfortable sharing, then the Sixers, after several weeks of trying to work with him and asking nicely, aren't comfortable paying him millions of dollars to not play basketball, especially when he's made it very clear for months before he tried this latest tact that he's gonna try to do whatever it takes to not play for them and still get paid.

[bbalnation]

Seems pretty clear to me, he's not sharing anything other than he's not mentally ready to play. Which, by the way, is not an actual mental illness last I checked.

No, but it can definitely be a symptom of an actual mental illness he may not feel comfortable sharing.

Ok well if he's not comfortable sharing, then the Sixers, after several weeks of trying to work with him and asking nicely, aren't comfortable paying him millions of dollars to not play basketball, especially when he's made it very clear for months before he tried this latest tact that he's gonna try to do whatever it takes to not play for them and still get paid.

Asking nicely?
Latest tact?

Your agenda has been clear throughout. You also dont use facts to support your claims, in a subject that is extremely sensitive. Reckless.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

And I'll reiterate what I said before. Siccing PI's on injured workers to see whether they're "faking it" is reprehensible. When someone gets injured during their work then they should be reimbursed. Period. Those in power (be them the state itself or big corporations) have no right to violate anyone's medical rights like that. The fact that you're willing to give them this kind of power (and, in fact, you DEMAND that they have is power) is troubling. But maybe that's why Kaczyński is in power in your country. Giving in to authoritarianism is never the answer, imo, but you are free to think differently.

I will not repeat what I stated multiple times as we clearly disagree and there's no point keeping messing around.
I just want to clarify that Jarek is absolutely not in power in my country, fortunately, for the time being we're lucky to have the privilege (no sarcasm) of having Mario Draghi in control for another year and half, before those fools of my countrymen will mess up things again.
Anyway, nobody in Warsaw's central districts supports PIS, you'll find more Trump supporters in SF.

[Sixerscan]

Fultz is very relevant, in my opinion, because his situation gives us insight into how the Sixers operate as a franchise and how they use their medical team to get the spin they want with the media. The Sixers tried to portray Fultz as a nutcase. They tried to say that he was "just scared to shoot". The media ate that **** up and then sold this spin to NBA fans who kept calling Fultz a nutcase, a mental midget and all that good stuff. I was here when it happened so I remember what was told quite vividly. It's not all that different from the slurs that people direct now at Simmons. Some people are very happy and very ready to attack players at the behest of big corporations.

Orlando's medical team verified that Fultz's injury was indeed serious when they traded for him. So, his missed that season and then returned the next where he produced fairly well. Not All-Star level production, of course, but good starter level production. Pretty good for a "mental midget nutcase who's afraid to shoot", huh?

His shooting numbers, by the way, were markedly better in Orlando. He shot 73% from the FT line (up from 47.6% in his rookie season and 56.8% in his sophomore season) and 41.6% from the mid-range (up from 25% in his rookie season and 24.4% in his sophomore season). Sure, the 3-point range isn't there yet but you can't say that these numbers aren't an improvement. So, Orlando's medical team definitely did the right thing here, unlike Philly's medical team. It just sucks that Fultz tore his ACL this January.



Read my post again, please. I never said that the Sixers are discrediting the NBPA medical professional. I specifically said that it was the people in this thread and not the Sixers who are discrediting the NBPA medical professional. I tried to be very clear on that.



Unless we're not talking about a mental health related medical service which is exactly what is happening in this case. That's why I said that the excerpt was pretty murky. Because that exception under B seems to apply in this case.



I fully disagree with everything in that part of your post. There is a pretty clear employer-employee relationship between NBA teams and NBA players. The power dynamics aren't all that different from any other employer-employee relationship either. Owners typically make much, much more than players do. Owners profit off of the players' labor. Making millions does not erase all these dynamics. All it does is make them very handsomenly-paid employees. Still employees, though.

But Fultz WAS a nut case. No spin necessary

Nope. He had a legitimate injury that his team's medical team failed to diagnose and then they tried to spin their failure into him being a nutcase. It seems it worked on some people, though. Congrats, I guess?

Well the issue with Fultz (which was a very weird situation and I am not sure how anyone who even followed it extremely closely can say exactly what happened) is it's unclear if any doctor actually diagnosed him with either of the things he said he had (scapular muscle imbalance and thoratic outlet syndrome). Go look at the reports, it's all through his agent, which is strange. Reading between the lines it does seem like they talked to a bunch of doctors that gave their best guess, but it wasn't something where like if you tear your ACL and the doctor can just be like "yup that ligament is torn".

That said, the Sixers did treat him as if he had those things in the way he wanted, i.e., physical therapy. Then when he got to the Magic, it's not like they diagnosed him with something else, then just kept treating him with physical therapy for the TOS. And eventually he was able to play.

Now, you can say he just needed a year of physical therapy to fix the TOS instead of 6 months or whatever it was (which I am not an expert on, but from what I understand doesn't really line up with purely that type of injury, like either it's a quick fix, or you get surgery like Brandon Ingram got that same year) or there was something else also going on where he needed more time to get comfortable with playing.

Either way, I'm not sure what that has to do with Simmons given that he's literally working with the Sixers doctors on a (also suspiciously timed) back injury, so clearly he doesn't share those concerns (there's also been a fair amount of turnover in the front office and training staff since the Fultz situation, from what I understand):

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32559520/philadelphia-76ers-resume-fining-ben-simmons-sources-say

In that time, Simmons, 25, has worked cooperatively with his own and team physicians on a back ailment but has told the Sixers repeatedly that he is unwilling to share information on his course of action in pursuing mental health treatment, sources said.

[Nuntius]

I will not repeat what I stated multiple times as we clearly disagree and there's no point keeping messing around.

Indeed. We can agree to disagree.

I just want to clarify that Jarek is absolutely not in power in my country, fortunately, for the time being we're lucky to have the privilege (no sarcasm) of having Mario Draghi in control for another year and half, before those fools of my countrymen will mess up things again.
Anyway, nobody in Warsaw's central districts supports PIS, you'll find more Trump supporters in SF.

I was talking about the country you live in (Poland, based on your profile) and not your country of origin. But since I used the vague term "your country" the response is fair enough.

[Nuntius]

But Fultz WAS a nut case. No spin necessary

Nope. He had a legitimate injury that his team's medical team failed to diagnose and then they tried to spin their failure into him being a nutcase. It seems it worked on some people, though. Congrats, I guess?

Well the issue with Fultz (which was a very weird situation and I am not sure how anyone who even followed it extremely closely can say exactly what happened) is it's unclear if any doctor actually diagnosed him with either of the things he said he had (scapular muscle imbalance and thoratic outlet syndrome). Go look at the reports, it's all through his agent, which is strange. Reading between the lines it does seem like they talked to a bunch of doctors that gave their best guess, but it wasn't something where like if you tear your ACL and the doctor can just be like "yup that ligament is torn".

That said, the Sixers did treat him as if he had those things in the way he wanted, i.e., physical therapy. Then when he got to the Magic, it's not like they diagnosed him with something else, then just kept treating him with physical therapy for the TOS. And eventually he was able to play.

Now, you can say he just needed a year of physical therapy to fix the TOS instead of 6 months or whatever it was (which I am not an expert on, but from what I understand doesn't really line up with purely that type of injury, like either it's a quick fix, or you get surgery like Brandon Ingram got that same year) or there was something else also going on where he needed more time to get comfortable with playing.

Either way, I'm not sure what that has to do with Simmons given that he's literally working with the Sixers doctors on a (also suspiciously timed) back injury, so clearly he doesn't share those concerns (there's also been a fair amount of turnover in the front office and training staff since the Fultz situation, from what I understand):

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32559520/philadelphia-76ers-resume-fining-ben-simmons-sources-say

In that time, Simmons, 25, has worked cooperatively with his own and team physicians on a back ailment but has told the Sixers repeatedly that he is unwilling to share information on his course of action in pursuing mental health treatment, sources said.

I've explained a number of times why I consider the Fultz situation to be pertinent. It establishes a pattern of mistrust and miscommunication (at best) between Philly's medical team and the team's players. It also establishes a pattern of the team trying to put the blame on players for these medical issues. You are free to not consider any of that to be related to this current situation but I definitely do.

[bbalnation]

This Philly organization needs a cultural overhaul starting with AI as the person making the shift (half kidding).

Hes wanted in on a basic advisor role and they wont let him.

Hes the answer to this, and all. Consider keeping Darryl for what hes good for: giving his perspective from a numbers POV, nothing culture related or any decision making. The two together could be workable, compared to the disastrous, harmful & toxic mess that Darryl, Doc and Josh Harris (their ownership group) have created, inherited and worsened over years.

[Texas Chuck]

Seems pretty clear to me, he's not sharing anything other than he's not mentally ready to play. Which, by the way, is not an actual mental illness last I checked.

No, but it can definitely be a symptom of an actual mental illness he may not feel comfortable sharing.

Ok well if he's not comfortable sharing, then the Sixers, after several weeks of trying to work with him and asking nicely, aren't comfortable paying him millions of dollars to not play basketball, especially when he's made it very clear for months before he tried this latest tact that he's gonna try to do whatever it takes to not play for them and still get paid.

I mean we need to acknowledge that he's been seeking treatment for his mental health for months now. It wasn't let me try this, oh that didn't work, let me try this, oh that didn't work, let me try claiming mental health.

Really disturbs me that people continue to allow their personal distaste for Simmons impact how they talk about this aspect of it. I understand the frustration, disappointment, and maybe even some anger I guess over a really talented guy not wanting to play for your team any more. But on this specific issue, the mental health issues go back awhile now. It's not just a ploy.

Now, someone posted the CBA wording on this earlier and its murky to say the least. But by some reasonable interpretations I agree that his current lack of cooperation with the Sixers regarding his treatment gives them the right to not pay him. I assume this probably eventually goes to some sort of arbitration, but again depending on exactly what the CBA requires not paying him might be justified.


But Nuntius keeps raising valid points on why Simmons might not fully trust the organization. You don't have to agree with them and I really don't expect you to based on your other posts itt. But that doesn't make them invalid. The Fultz thing was a mess. His coach didn't have his back publicly right after the worst moment of his professional career. We can all play cool guy on the internet and say suck it up buttercup or we can look at it like human beings and understand how that could easily feel like a betrayal. We've had some absurd hit pieces come straight out of known Sixers mouthpieces.

All that stuff adds up. I wouldn't fully trust Philly to have my best interests in mind right now at all either. As much as I think Simmons has mishandled much of this. And as much as I continue to defend Morey for holding firm and not just trading him to trade him. I also realize the Sixers aren't doing a great job here either. And in trying to win a PR fight they are hurting themselves.

[bebopdeluxe]

No, but it can definitely be a symptom of an actual mental illness he may not feel comfortable sharing.

Ok well if he's not comfortable sharing, then the Sixers, after several weeks of trying to work with him and asking nicely, aren't comfortable paying him millions of dollars to not play basketball, especially when he's made it very clear for months before he tried this latest tact that he's gonna try to do whatever it takes to not play for them and still get paid.

I mean we need to acknowledge that he's been seeking treatment for his mental health for months now. It wasn't let me try this, oh that didn't work, let me try this, oh that didn't work, let me try claiming mental health.

Really disturbs me that people continue to allow their personal distaste for Simmons impact how they talk about this aspect of it. I understand the frustration, disappointment, and maybe even some anger I guess over a really talented guy not wanting to play for your team any more. But on this specific issue, the mental health issues go back awhile now. It's not just a ploy.

Now, someone posted the CBA wording on this earlier and its murky to say the least. But by some reasonable interpretations I agree that his current lack of cooperation with the Sixers regarding his treatment gives them the right to not pay him. I assume this probably eventually goes to some sort of arbitration, but again depending on exactly what the CBA requires not paying him might be justified.


But Nuntius keeps raising valid points on why Simmons might not fully trust the organization. You don't have to agree with them and I really don't expect you to based on your other posts itt. But that doesn't make them invalid. The Fultz thing was a mess. His coach didn't have his back publicly right after the worst moment of his professional career. We can all play cool guy on the internet and say suck it up buttercup or we can look at it like human beings and understand how that could easily feel like a betrayal. We've had some absurd hit pieces come straight out of known Sixers mouthpieces.

All that stuff adds up. I wouldn't fully trust Philly to have my best interests in mind right now at all either. As much as I think Simmons has mishandled much of this. And as much as I continue to defend Morey for holding firm and not just trading him to trade him. I also realize the Sixers aren't doing a great job here either. And in trying to win a PR fight they are hurting themselves.

While, in this day and age, "winning the PR fight" has value, I think that strictly from a legal perspective and in terms of contract law, the Sixers are on the high ground here. I would agree that if Ben Simmons is getting mental health treatment that is focused on getting him back on the court to fulfill the terms of his contract with the Sixers, the 30,000-foot takeaway is this should be respected. It is not hard to imagine that Simmons is dealing with anxiety issues in pressure situations (like the playoffs), which is impacting his ability to do his job at the best of his ability.

However - and this is where the CBA can get a bit murky - what is Simmons' responsibility as it relates to getting this help while not participating in the non-game aspects of being a member of the team and fulfilling the terms of his contract? To the best of our knowledge, he is not getting in-patient treatment, and even in a situation where he is receiving daily therapy sessions, this does not proclude him from engaging in other activity - such as team-organized strength training, shooting practice and film sessions. There also needs to be a genuine desire FROM THE PLAYER to have a gameplan for return-to-action. To simply say "I want to get my mental right", but refuse to participate in non-game team-required activities, absolutely will cost Simmons - both in terms of game checks as well as in the court of public opinion.

The fact that the team started the clock last Thursday on withholding game checks - one day after Simmons met with Morey - is telling. It is also telling that, several days later, we have not heard a peep from Michele Roberts. The NBA PA is in a tough spot here - with upcoming CBA negotiations and the very real risk of a lockout. It will be interesting to see whether Ben/Klutch starts putting real pressure on the PA to have his back. My guyess is as long as the PA believes that Simmons is not negotiating his "withholding of services" in 100% good faith - with a stated and tangible, defined goal of getting back on the floor with the Sixers as soon as possible - the PA will provide little more than lip service to Ben's "plight".

I do think that, should the Sixers continue to withhold paychecks, Ben/Klutch might try to file for arbitration. The fact that there is no imminent talk of that is very telling, IMO.

[Sixerscan]

No, but it can definitely be a symptom of an actual mental illness he may not feel comfortable sharing.

Ok well if he's not comfortable sharing, then the Sixers, after several weeks of trying to work with him and asking nicely, aren't comfortable paying him millions of dollars to not play basketball, especially when he's made it very clear for months before he tried this latest tact that he's gonna try to do whatever it takes to not play for them and still get paid.

I mean we need to acknowledge that he's been seeking treatment for his mental health for months now. It wasn't let me try this, oh that didn't work, let me try this, oh that didn't work, let me try claiming mental health.

Really disturbs me that people continue to allow their personal distaste for Simmons impact how they talk about this aspect of it. I understand the frustration, disappointment, and maybe even some anger I guess over a really talented guy not wanting to play for your team any more. But on this specific issue, the mental health issues go back awhile now. It's not just a ploy.

Now, someone posted the CBA wording on this earlier and its murky to say the least. But by some reasonable interpretations I agree that his current lack of cooperation with the Sixers regarding his treatment gives them the right to not pay him. I assume this probably eventually goes to some sort of arbitration, but again depending on exactly what the CBA requires not paying him might be justified.


But Nuntius keeps raising valid points on why Simmons might not fully trust the organization. You don't have to agree with them and I really don't expect you to based on your other posts itt. But that doesn't make them invalid. The Fultz thing was a mess. His coach didn't have his back publicly right after the worst moment of his professional career. We can all play cool guy on the internet and say suck it up buttercup or we can look at it like human beings and understand how that could easily feel like a betrayal. We've had some absurd hit pieces come straight out of known Sixers mouthpieces.

All that stuff adds up. I wouldn't fully trust Philly to have my best interests in mind right now at all either. As much as I think Simmons has mishandled much of this. And as much as I continue to defend Morey for holding firm and not just trading him to trade him. I also realize the Sixers aren't doing a great job here either. And in trying to win a PR fight they are hurting themselves.

He may have be seeking treatment for months now, the point is he didn't share it with the team as a reason to get paid until recently after he (i) demanded a trade, (ii) refused to show up to camp (until they started fining him) (iii) refused to engage in practice, (iv) claimed a back injury. So if that was the real reason and not the other stuff, then he was misleading them for months. Which causes an obvious lack of trust, and they want him to get his story straight before they go further.

Whether or not he trusts the organization is immaterial as far as the specific thing I am talking about is concerned. There's not one set of standards when a guy trusts the organization and another where he doesn't. In fact, the whole point of requiring a guy to provide information on this sort of stuff is to account for the exact situation where there's a rocky relationship. If Simmons and the Sixers had a hunky-dory relationship there would be no need for a CBA requirement.

You guys are acting like the Sixers are the good guys here. They're not good or bad they're just enforcing their rights under the contract they and he signed. If Ben doesn't want to provide the information it's fine he just doesn't also get paid.

[CptCrunch]

As I predicted in the first post, Rich Paul is going down the you can't fight mental health claim route. Now that Simmons has provided the Sixers with his mental health professionals. the Sixers are done. Pay the man or trade the man for cheap.

Now that Simmons is seeking treatment officially on paper, what are the Sixers/Moray gonna do? Prove something that cannot be proven?

[hauntedcomputer]

Has Ben even tried calling Joe Rogan?
I mean, does he really want to get better?

[chrisab123]

As I predicted in the first post, Rich Paul is going down the you can't fight mental health claim route. Now that Simmons has provided the Sixers with his mental health professionals. the Sixers are done. Pay the man or trade the man for cheap.

Now that Simmons is seeking treatment officially on paper, what are the Sixers/Moray gonna do? Prove something that cannot be proven?

Just deal him to LA and his mental health issues will magically go away. Any other location such as Boston or Minnesota and he's not reporting.

[bbalnation]

If they're providing the same thing as (B) what's the point of explicitly calling them out as a separate thing in (A)? (B) is to cover other "professionals", i.e., *not* "physicians (including a psychiatrist)". Like chiropractors and physical therapists as they listed. Doctors such as psychiatrists are included in (A). In fact they explicitly include psychiatrists in (A) to avoid exactly the confusion that you are having.

If there was any question about whether what the Sixers were doing is wrong the Players Association would be all up in arms over this, but notice you don't hear a peep from them, or Rich Paul for that matter.

And as I said before, you could definitely be right in your reading and I could be wrong on it. We'll see how the NBPA will react to this matter, especially if the Sixers try to force Simmons to stop seeing the NBPA therapists that he's been seeing.

I dont think hes right, after all his employer advocacy work. I havent been following along, but I'll entertain this for a second.

A Psychologist, Social Worker, Psychotherapist dont fit what A or B speak of. These are the therapists that are often handling "talk therapy". I imagine it's who Ben is seeing. Psychiatrists are generally responsible for that initial diagnosis, prescribing meds, and then in some cases, talk therapy as well.

Im quoting myself because im obnoxious, but someone recently mentioned that the CBA was "murky" about what Ben has to disclose.

Its actually really clear. The Players Union would make sure that the CBA contract would include "non mental health" for a reason. And its for invasive reasons like these: when organizations who have had a history of mistreating players around their body & mind (ie Fultz & Ben himself) try to invade the privacy of the players by accessing their mental health documents.

How else would you encourage a person to seek support when they need it?

Im not speculating. A Psychologist, Social Worker or Psychotherapist. Look it up if you'd like.

I implore us to use facts when we're speaking about this topic folks, even in an emotional state of mind.

Tldr: the current CBA does NOT require a player show their records with their talk therapist, based off the contract the user in the thread had the time to dig up, read, and quote (along with the other posters who spent pages on it before it had to be nipped in the bud with the facts)

[bebopdeluxe]

As I predicted in the first post, Rich Paul is going down the you can't fight mental health claim route. Now that Simmons has provided the Sixers with his mental health professionals. the Sixers are done. Pay the man or trade the man for cheap.

Now that Simmons is seeking treatment officially on paper, what are the Sixers/Moray gonna do? Prove something that cannot be proven?

You have made the Sixers (and Sixerscan's) point:

"Now that Simmons is seeking treatment officially on paper"...

Do you KNOW how that sounds, bro?

And this isn't like when you were in 5th grade and all you had to do to get excused from school is bring a doctor's note to the teacher. This is a $147 MILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT. Ben SImmons can't just say "hey - I'm seeing someone SO GIVE ME MY MONEY".

Strength training and cardio work. Film sessions. Participating in walkthroughs to understand the offensive and defensive sets so WHEN HE IS READY TO PLAY he can step right in. These are all reasonable requests for the Sixers to make - to show that Ben is negotiating in good faith and is complying with basic "ready to return" activities.

The reason why Michele Roberts and the NBA PA are not out there publicly supporting Ben is he is NOT doing all of the things he needs to do in order to get the PA's support. It is also why you have not heard a peep out of Ben's camp about arbitration. If you are right, and all Ben has to do is seek treatment "officially on paper", they why aren't we hearing from Ben or Klutch about the $720K Ben was docked for missing the Detroit and Chicago games - huh?

[CraftylikeaFox]

End to end, this Ben Simmons situation is the wildest thing we've ever seen regarding only one player. A franchise max player becomes so scared to shoot the basketball that he passes open a wide open dunk. His team loses a playoff series in big part because of this passiveness. The franchises coach, other superstar, and entire fanbase call him out on his play. He gets so offended by this that he ghosts the team altogether. Doesn't show up to practices, meetings etc. Tries to get traded, but the team doesn't trade him because his value went from superstar to role player in the span of a summer. Now because he didn't get traded he is claiming his mental health is too unmanageable. I feel like I'm watching a drama sitcom.