Safe to say, Chet "Hologram" Holgrem > Paolo Banchero

[zero rings]

Because Chet is the next Tim Duncan, right? He isn't currently a role player who has yet to show any indication that he can lead a team as their first option. No, sir.

You realize Tim Duncan wasn’t a first option for a huge chunk of his career, right?

There are more ways to impact a game than jacking up 20 shots per night.

No, actually, I have no idea what you're talking about. What, do you think he was taking a backseat to an aging David Robinson?

He took a back seat to Tony, Manu, and Kawhi all the time. The Spurs only ran a TD heavy offense for the first 7 or 8 years of his career. And of course he was still very impactful with less shots.

Also, what makes you think Chet would fare worse than Paolo in a bigger role? You think his TS% would plummet by 10+ points with a few extra shots a night? I don’t.

[tsherkin]

Banchero is a #1 type. Holmgren is a great role player. Huge difference. Why is the basketball knowledge on here so low?

Why can Chet not be a #1 type? Why is basketball knowledge here so low?

Because people look at stats and not actually watch the player or don’t have the time

Chet definitely has number one capability and then some.

Odds are good that he can. I think people just want to see him prove it, because it's also likely he would have struggled more in a situation similar to Paolo's.

Chet is enjoying a LOT of passing support right now, and a lot of space due to SGA. The Thunder are also the best 3pt shooting team in the league, which nicely opens up the interior. It's a little challenging to directly compare guys in such drastically different situations.

[thelead]

You realize Tim Duncan wasn’t a first option for a huge chunk of his career, right?

There are more ways to impact a game than jacking up 20 shots per night.

No, actually, I have no idea what you're talking about. What, do you think he was taking a backseat to an aging David Robinson?

He took a back seat to Tony, Manu, and Kawhi all the time. The Spurs only ran a TD heavy offense for the first 7 or 8 years of his career. And of course he was still very impactful with less shots.

Also, what makes you think Chet would fare worse than Paolo in a bigger role? You think his TS% would plummet by 10+ points with a few extra shots a night? I don’t.

If you took away SGA? It would absolutely drop quite a bit. 10+points? I dunno. I like him a lot and think he would just move the rock if he didn’t have a good shot. Paolo hasn’t had that luxury even though he’s a good playmaker. All this back and forth and no one will win the argument. Gotta let it play out.

[DCasey91]

Pretty much for laments terms teams get 100 possessions at a 115 point average return let’s say for aesthetics purposes

Chet is clearly in the upper bracket of offensive and defensive returns despite being of a lower volume (OKC is crushing atm for a young team). So not broke don’t fix it

Banchero and that for Wemby gets closer to superstar usage 30/30++%. If the return is middling, slightly below or bad then it doesn’t matter the volume (within context obviously) the return in conclusion won’t be. It goes for Cade too btw.

Teams can do it for a while multitude of reasons. Now there is inherit value in shot creation and self offence in of itself no denying that

What’s interesting to note that Chet has played 200++ mins without SGA on the floor and his TS% is actually higher.

His ORTG is basically the same with or without the teams starting PG.

Small sample size but if it pretty much stays the same way it’s a far indication he can take on a larger load.

And there is zero argument otherwise frankly because if Jordan Effn Poole can get 30% usage anyone in the league with a pulse on that end can lol.

Notably the Timberwolves was the nail in the coffin

And by just by viewing of him there’s more than a couple of instances he can handle himself if he was more of the true vocal point.

With Wemby just quickly it’s plain as day Tre needs to be on the court.

As regard to big men. Quality smaller players is basketball 101. Randle/Brunson for example helps both. Curry/Green etc

With Paolo it would be the same thing if say Fox was with him.

Offence is the whole thing not just scoring.

[CIN-C-STAR]

You realize Tim Duncan wasn’t a first option for a huge chunk of his career, right?

There are more ways to impact a game than jacking up 20 shots per night.

No, actually, I have no idea what you're talking about. What, do you think he was taking a backseat to an aging David Robinson?

He took a back seat to Tony, Manu, and Kawhi all the time. The Spurs only ran a TD heavy offense for the first 7 or 8 years of his career. And of course he was still very impactful with less shots.

Also, what makes you think Chet would fare worse than Paolo in a bigger role? You think his TS% would plummet by 10+ points with a few extra shots a night? I don’t.

Even when Tony was given the keys to the offense, everything was still keyed off the Tony-Duncan PnR and Duncan's gravity as a roller. It's not like he was asked to go stand in the corner.

And yes I think if Chet was asked to initiate the offense as the #1 option and shot creator his TS% would absolutely plummet. 66% of his 2s are assisted, and 98% of his 3s.
What makes you think he could fill a vastly different, and more difficult, role with the same efficiency?
Pretty wild and illogical assumption tbh.
Great role player right now though with the potential to grow into more. Not knocking Chet, love his game, but the stanning is out of control at times.

[zero rings]

No, actually, I have no idea what you're talking about. What, do you think he was taking a backseat to an aging David Robinson?

He took a back seat to Tony, Manu, and Kawhi all the time. The Spurs only ran a TD heavy offense for the first 7 or 8 years of his career. And of course he was still very impactful with less shots.

Also, what makes you think Chet would fare worse than Paolo in a bigger role? You think his TS% would plummet by 10+ points with a few extra shots a night? I don’t.

Even when Tony was given the keys to the offense, everything was still keyed off the Tony-Duncan PnR and Duncan's gravity as a roller. It's not like he was asked to go stand in the corner.

And yes I think if Chet was asked to initiate the offense as the #1 option and shot creator his TS% would absolutely plummet. 66% of his 2s are assisted, and 98% of his 3s.
What makes you think he could fill a vastly different, and more difficult, role with the same efficiency?
Pretty wild and illogical assumption tbh.
Great role player right now though with the potential to grow into more. Not knocking Chet, love his game, but the stanning is out of control at times.

It’s not as simple as looking at % of field goals assisted. Being a 7’1 freak with a jump shot is a huge part of that creation. SGA isn’t creating those shots for Steven Adams.

I think Chet could easily average 23 ppg on above average efficiency. He creates too many easy ones not to. He’s similar to someone like AD where he can score a bunch of points efficiently without having to force the issue.

[FrightCoward]

My point is, you are all comparing a LOW VOLUME shooter in Chet to a #1 option that takes more shots.

this makes a comparison tricky on offense for sure. how do you negotiate the value of these players when they are such different roles? the thunder offense with chet on the court is putting up 122.4pp100. that's over 10pp100 better than the magic offense with paolo in the game. how much of this difference is attributable to chet and paolo? it's not an easy question to answer, especially when you consider that the magic offense is significantly better when paolo is on the bench.

what i come back to is defensive impact. paolo doesn't offer much and chet is already in the upper echelon in the nba. paolo has made great strides offensively, especially lately, but it's hard for me to see anything he's doing on offense making up the separation on the other end without some more progress.

Banchero is actually an underrated defender, he’s still carrying that draft stigma with him. He’s never going to win DPOY but he can hold his own on that end. That’s been a surprise development in his game.

[timO]

Banchero is a #1 type. Holmgren is a great role player. Huge difference. Why is the basketball knowledge on here so low?

if banchero is a #1 type like Randle the magic will be a first round exit all of his career :lol

Chet role player role player like Olajuwon.

[Sphynx]

Why can Chet not be a #1 type? Why is basketball knowledge here so low?

Because people look at stats and not actually watch the player or don’t have the time

Chet definitely has number one capability and then some.

Odds are good that he can. I think people just want to see him prove it, because it's also likely he would have struggled more in a situation similar to Paolo's.

Chet is enjoying a LOT of passing support right now, and a lot of space due to SGA. The Thunder are also the best 3pt shooting team in the league, which nicely opens up the interior. It's a little challenging to directly compare guys in such drastically different situations.

They weren't last year.

They are now, because Chet is playing and statistically one of the best shooters in the league through half of this season.

You say that SGA is providing passing support, but it's Chet who has provided enormous spacing for every other Thunder player now with his shooting ability.

[ogmagicfan]

Banchero is a #1 type. Holmgren is a great role player. Huge difference. Why is the basketball knowledge on here so low?

if banchero is a #1 type like Randle the magic will be a first round exit all of his career :lol

Chet role player role player like Olajuwon.

I don't know whats lazier, comparing Paolo to Randle or comparing Chet to Hakeem Olajuwon

[ogmagicfan]

This debate is hilarious because you have Magic/Paolo fans not saying Chet is trash or anything, as we all recognize he's a great young 2 way player & potential star

Then you have Thunder/Chet fans saying that Paolo is an inefficient chucker who makes his team worse and that advanced stats with no context paint the whole picture

If you dont watch Paolo actually play basketball, you probably shouldnt give your insights

[Duke4life831]

This thread is so weird to read haha. It’s like people are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

I’ve watched more Paolo this year than Chet, but seen a good amount of Chet this year and throughout his earlier basketball. We can cut out the extremes.

“Chet is a role player”. Dumb extreme take.
“Paolo is an inefficient offensive only player”. Dumb extreme take.

Chet has pretty advanced shot creation for a 7’1 21 year old. Is he asked to do it as often and is it as advanced as Paolo’s? No. But doesn’t mean he doesn’t have any shot creating ability.

When it comes to Paolo. 55 TS% for a 2nd year on ball high volume creator isn’t bad at all. Then you also need to factor in Paolo is dealing with one of the worst spacing teams in the league (pretty sure they’re bottom 3 in both 3pt makes and %). And someone like myself who was very weary about his defensive potential coming into the league. 2nd year in and he’s not even a bad defender anymore. Is he elite? Nope, is he hurting his team? Nope.

Sometimes the most simple answer is the correct answer. Both guys are very good. They have different skill sets. Players can be impactful with different kinds of skill sets. They both went to a team that fits and needed their skill sets. If ORL had a redraft today, they would take Paolo with no hesitation. If OKC had a redraft and the #1 pick today, they would take Chet with no hesitation.

Not everything had to be turned into an argument for argument sake.

[The Real Dalic]

This debate is hilarious because you have Magic/Paolo fans not saying Chet is trash or anything, as we all recognize he's a great young 2 way player & potential star

Then you have Thunder/Chet fans saying that Paolo is an inefficient chucker who makes his team worse and that advanced stats with no context paint the whole picture

If you dont watch Paolo actually play basketball, you probably shouldnt give your insights

This is the most frustrating part. Is they're talking out of their ass when talking about Paolo because of one quick trip to BasketballReference. There are some Paolo defenders trashing Chet though by calling him a role player.

Neither needs to happen. It's childish and wrong. I'm not saying people have to like Paolo, but lets stop acting like you've watched the Magic outside of when your teams have played them when you say stuff like the Magic are better with Paolo on the bench. Because it isn't true. Watch the games and watch how he impacts the game when he's in. It's not his fault the starting lineup can't shoot when healthy outside of him and Suggs.

[MoneyTalks41890]

Not everything had to be turned into an argument for argument sake.

No, you’re wrong.

[tsherkin]

They weren't last year.

They are now, because Chet is playing and statistically one of the best shooters in the league through half of this season.

You say that SGA is providing passing support, but it's Chet who has provided enormous spacing for every other Thunder player now with his shooting ability.

That isn't a mono-directional thing.

But yes, the Thunder were 17th in 3P% last season. They also added Cason Wallace, Isaiah Joe continues to be at 40%+, Kenrich Williams is having another up year as he has done in the past, and of course Chet himself is very good from 3. And yes, he impacts defensive disposition as well.

But again, dude's getting mad passing support and taking 12 FGA/g, so looking at his specific efficiency versus a guy in Paolo's position doesn't really make sense. It surely is appropriate to appreciate what Chet is doing, but let's not project too much until we see a little more, you know? It seems very likely that he'll scale well, but we need more than 35 games of 12 FGA/g in 30 mpg behind a real focal offensive star to evaluate him.

[Rainwater]

This thread is so weird to read haha. It’s like people are arguing just for the sake of arguing.

I’ve watched more Paolo this year than Chet, but seen a good amount of Chet this year and throughout his earlier basketball. We can cut out the extremes.

“Chet is a role player”. Dumb extreme take.
“Paolo is an inefficient offensive only player”. Dumb extreme take.

Chet has pretty advanced shot creation for a 7’1 21 year old. Is he asked to do it as often and is it as advanced as Paolo’s? No. But doesn’t mean he doesn’t have any shot creating ability.

When it comes to Paolo. 55 TS% for a 2nd year on ball high volume creator isn’t bad at all. Then you also need to factor in Paolo is dealing with one of the worst spacing teams in the league (pretty sure they’re bottom 3 in both 3pt makes and %). And someone like myself who was very weary about his defensive potential coming into the league. 2nd year in and he’s not even a bad defender anymore. Is he elite? Nope, is he hurting his team? Nope.

Sometimes the most simple answer is the correct answer. Both guys are very good. They have different skill sets. Players can be impactful with different kinds of skill sets. They both went to a team that fits and needed their skill sets. If ORL had a redraft today, they would take Paolo with no hesitation. If OKC had a redraft and the #1 pick today, they would take Chet with no hesitation.

Not everything had to be turned into an argument for argument sake.

You can’t play the middle man. You must pick an extreme, lol. Stand for something or fall for anything.

[Rainwater]

Man, I can’t wait until Chet and Paolo play one another, this thread will be on lite, lol.

They play each other on saturday.

Results from that day settles everything, lol.

[DCasey91]

Why can Chet not be a #1 type? Why is basketball knowledge here so low?

Because people look at stats and not actually watch the player or don’t have the time

Chet definitely has number one capability and then some.

Odds are good that he can. I think people just want to see him prove it, because it's also likely he would have struggled more in a situation similar to Paolo's.

Chet is enjoying a LOT of passing support right now, and a lot of space due to SGA. The Thunder are also the best 3pt shooting team in the league, which nicely opens up the interior. It's a little challenging to directly compare guys in such drastically different situations.

Agreed that’s why on my last post I tried to explain quality smaller players helps out a big guys game so much and vice versa.

Fox paired with Banchero would be fantastic through constant high/low rim pressure

I’m already sold on Chet’s capabilities, his shooting/ft conversion is too hard to ignore for his size and he’s a lot less one dimensional than someone like Porzingis who struggled to put the ball on the floor even with Luka there.

I like both a lot and watched them heaps I’m def higher on Chet’s archetype and value holistically.

Thing I like about Paolo the most especially with how ball is played today he is getting closer to Pistons Griffin dynamics a lot sooner. And the same thing is said about Chet and his play style.

People can complain about what is going on but personally teams do a better job of min/maxing a player.

[Sphynx]

They weren't last year.

They are now, because Chet is playing and statistically one of the best shooters in the league through half of this season.

You say that SGA is providing passing support, but it's Chet who has provided enormous spacing for every other Thunder player now with his shooting ability.

That isn't a mono-directional thing.

But yes, the Thunder were 17th in 3P% last season. They also added Cason Wallace, Isaiah Joe continues to be at 40%+, Kenrich Williams is having another up year as he has done in the past, and of course Chet himself is very good from 3. And yes, he impacts defensive disposition as well.

But again, dude's getting mad passing support and taking 12 FGA/g, so looking at his specific efficiency versus a guy in Paolo's position doesn't really make sense. It surely is appropriate to appreciate what Chet is doing, but let's not project too much until we see a little more, you know? It seems very likely that he'll scale well, but we need more than 35 games of 12 FGA/g in 30 mpg behind a real focal offensive star to evaluate him.

Fact of the matter is, the key addition this year to the starting lineup is Chet.

They have gone from a middling 3pt team who were a drive to the bucket at all costs type team last year, to a much more balanced one.

With his shooting %'s, he's spread the floor an enormous amount. Based on last year, you would have said they would have just driven in the lane even more with the added space and increased their efficiency, but no, they have adapted and are now the best 3pt side in the league (a criticism of them not even 6-12 months ago).

We haven't even touched on his defensive impact at the rim either.


SGA's play is certainly a component, but he was absolutely balling last year also.

Chet is the main structural reason of their adjusted game style and improvement, for many reasons. Id argue it is Chet now playing for OKC as the key reason of SGA now going to an even higher level. Rather than insinuations of SGA spoonfeeding Chet points and looks.

[MMyhre]

This debate is hilarious because you have Magic/Paolo fans not saying Chet is trash or anything, as we all recognize he's a great young 2 way player & potential star

Then you have Thunder/Chet fans saying that Paolo is an inefficient chucker who makes his team worse and that advanced stats with no context paint the whole picture

If you dont watch Paolo actually play basketball, you probably shouldnt give your insights

Lol. As if you guys aren`t so deep on Paolos nuts in his harem as well. Some part of me wants him to become Parmelo Banthony, a glorified, overhyped statpadder that obsesses over stats, and plays losing basketball into the dark side. While Chet goes to the winning basketball, underrated advanced stats chad, teamplayer and defensive savant into the light side with Tim Duncan as Yoda or some ****. And then absorbs the powers of Dirk and Hakeem combined into a holy 7-1 ft Jesus of Doom on offense.

Ofc Paolo might be the nicest and humblest kid that just wants to get better, and actually have humility and self-awareness, so I shouldnt doom him to this path, but some of the Paolo homerism from you Magics is pretty irritating. I should just analyze him and find out the truth for myself, but I can`t be bothered as he doesn`t interest me that much, yet. I hope Cole Anthony chucks away some more stats and wins from your stats hero (that doesnt even have that impressive stats honestly, improvement and a hot streak going, but yeah I thought he was averaging 27+ for the season the way you guys are fawning and moaning over there).

I really believe in this OKC big 3 though, and it shall remain to be seen if Chet will be merely a follower or a star leader on offense in the future. I see potential for big things..