The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[DimesandKnicks]

And we just covered the other areas that Jokic impacts the game by more than this.

As well as the ways where he impacts the game defensively way below league average. FYI Gobert averages .2 more fouls than Jokic. I’m still not seeing much difference between Jokic’s impact and Doncic

We're covered the difference in Luka and Jokic isn't huge and the difference in rebounds, steals, and deflections seems to mostly cover it. Without us even talking about Luka taking plays off and Jokic not.

Jokic just takes off when it comes to contesting. Which would make everyone else we hold at an ATG standard as a defensive liability

[dhsilv2]

As well as the ways where he impacts the game defensively way below league average. FYI Gobert averages .2 more fouls than Jokic. I’m still not seeing much difference between Jokic’s impact and Doncic

We're covered the difference in Luka and Jokic isn't huge and the difference in rebounds, steals, and deflections seems to mostly cover it. Without us even talking about Luka taking plays off and Jokic not.

Jokic just takes off when it comes to contesting. Which would make everyone else we hold at an ATG standard as a defensive liability

Not contesting and letting your man backdoor cut without you are night and day different.

And contesting or not doesn't make you or not make you a liability. Losing your man, getting out of position. That's an actual liability.

[Bush4Ever]

To me "he has no help" cuts across two ideas:

1. How good the cast is in isolation, divorced from Jokic, AND
2. How good the cast is in the specific Jokic-context

To me, they almost completely fail at the former, and are "okay" in the latter.

Jokic's lift is absolutely surreal offensively. It's to the point where his overall lift is top-tier while being in the vicinity of neutral/average defensively as a big.

[Woodsanity]

The "help":

Jamal Murray: PER 17.7, BPM .7
MPJ: PER 17.1, BPM .5
WB: PER 15.5, BPM .1
Braun: PER 15.8, BPM 0
Aaron Gordon: PER 16.1, BPM .8

vs

Jokic: PER: 33.1, BPM 14

The help sure is helping.

[DimesandKnicks]

We're covered the difference in Luka and Jokic isn't huge and the difference in rebounds, steals, and deflections seems to mostly cover it. Without us even talking about Luka taking plays off and Jokic not.

Jokic just takes off when it comes to contesting. Which would make everyone else we hold at an ATG standard as a defensive liability

Not contesting and letting your man backdoor cut without you are night and day different.

And contesting or not doesn't make you or not make you a liability. Losing your man, getting out of position. That's an actual liability.

Losing your man and being out of position makes you a defensive liability but being among the leagues worst in shot defense doesn’t?

[dhsilv2]

Jokic just takes off when it comes to contesting. Which would make everyone else we hold at an ATG standard as a defensive liability

Not contesting and letting your man backdoor cut without you are night and day different.

And contesting or not doesn't make you or not make you a liability. Losing your man, getting out of position. That's an actual liability.

Losing your man and being out of position makes you a defensive liability but being among the leagues worst in shot defense doesn’t?

Yes...we're talking about the difference in a wide open shot or layup and a 49.5% shot. These are huge differences dude. Not to mention if someone fouls when they're getting cooked.

Lets take a guy you claimed was a better defender in Drummond. Drummond is fouling at 6.4 per 100 vs Jokic at 2.7. 3.7 additional fouls per 100 is massive. That becomes a liability.

And remember we're only talking about the 20% of the game a player is defending the ball. The other 80% of the time you're still doing important stuff and as we've covered. Jokic is among the best in his role there.

[DimesandKnicks]

Not contesting and letting your man backdoor cut without you are night and day different.

And contesting or not doesn't make you or not make you a liability. Losing your man, getting out of position. That's an actual liability.

Losing your man and being out of position makes you a defensive liability but being among the leagues worst in shot defense doesn’t?

Yes...we're talking about the difference in a wide open shot or layup and a 49.5% shot. These are huge differences dude. Not to mention if someone fouls when they're getting cooked.

Lets take a guy you claimed was a better defender in Drummond. Drummond is fouling at 6.4 per 100 vs Jokic at 2.7. 3.7 additional fouls per 100 is massive. That becomes a liability.

And remember we're only talking about the 20% of the game a player is defending the ball. The other 80% of the time you're still doing important stuff and as we've covered. Jokic is among the best in his role there.

It’s not the difference in a wide open shot, it’s the difference between when your actually present on defense (like just infront of someone) and when your actually putting pressure on the person your defending

[DimesandKnicks]

And for Jokic the difference between the two is .04 or whatever number it was which means there’s pretty much no difference between him just being there and actually contesting

[DimesandKnicks]

I imagine that isn’t much different between being defended by a cone or a chair and just taking shots during warmups

[dhsilv2]

Losing your man and being out of position makes you a defensive liability but being among the leagues worst in shot defense doesn’t?

Yes...we're talking about the difference in a wide open shot or layup and a 49.5% shot. These are huge differences dude. Not to mention if someone fouls when they're getting cooked.

Lets take a guy you claimed was a better defender in Drummond. Drummond is fouling at 6.4 per 100 vs Jokic at 2.7. 3.7 additional fouls per 100 is massive. That becomes a liability.

And remember we're only talking about the 20% of the game a player is defending the ball. The other 80% of the time you're still doing important stuff and as we've covered. Jokic is among the best in his role there.

It’s not the difference in a wide open shot, it’s the difference between when your actually present on defense (like just infront of someone) and when your actually putting pressure on the person your defending

No when Luka lets his man just roll to the basket with him just staying back and out of the play. That's a big difference.

[DimesandKnicks]

Yes...we're talking about the difference in a wide open shot or layup and a 49.5% shot. These are huge differences dude. Not to mention if someone fouls when they're getting cooked.

Lets take a guy you claimed was a better defender in Drummond. Drummond is fouling at 6.4 per 100 vs Jokic at 2.7. 3.7 additional fouls per 100 is massive. That becomes a liability.

And remember we're only talking about the 20% of the game a player is defending the ball. The other 80% of the time you're still doing important stuff and as we've covered. Jokic is among the best in his role there.

It’s not the difference in a wide open shot, it’s the difference between when your actually present on defense (like just infront of someone) and when your actually putting pressure on the person your defending

No when Luka lets his man just roll to the basket with him just staying back and out of the play. That's a big difference.

I'm not talking about Luka, not sure if that was a response to my post. Kentucky, Jokic has the most shot attempts against him a game, over 20, yet he only contest five. This isn't effort. And since we're talking about Luka that's only one more contest than Jokic, despite Jokic having nearly 7 more attempts against him

[dhsilv2]

It’s not the difference in a wide open shot, it’s the difference between when your actually present on defense (like just infront of someone) and when your actually putting pressure on the person your defending

No when Luka lets his man just roll to the basket with him just staying back and out of the play. That's a big difference.

I'm not talking about Luka, not sure if that was a response to my post. Kentucky, Jokic has the most shot attempts against him a game, over 20, yet he only contest five. This isn't effort. And since we're talking about Luka that's only one more contest than Jokic, despite Jokic having nearly 7 more attempts against him

You keep using this contest stuff as if it's this game changer. You've yet to again make any attempt to quantify this. Every method we've got shows Jokic has a plus impact on defense. And you've made it crystal clear you're not able ot put all the data points together to try and quantify your feelings.

But at the end of the day where we ultimately get back to is this. 3 steals a game is worth more than Gobert level impact to shots defended. And that's really what this has boiled down to. you're refusing to accept that, to the point you've yet to once engage in the math because you know you can't counter it.

[DimesandKnicks]

No when Luka lets his man just roll to the basket with him just staying back and out of the play. That's a big difference.

I'm not talking about Luka, not sure if that was a response to my post. Kentucky, Jokic has the most shot attempts against him a game, over 20, yet he only contest five. This isn't effort. And since we're talking about Luka that's only one more contest than Jokic, despite Jokic having nearly 7 more attempts against him

You keep using this contest stuff as if it's this game changer. You've yet to again make any attempt to quantify this. Every method we've got shows Jokic has a plus impact on defense. And you've made it crystal clear you're not able ot put all the data points together to try and quantify your feelings.

But at the end of the day where we ultimately get back to is this. 3 steals a game is worth more than Gobert level impact to shots defended. And that's really what this has boiled down to. you're refusing to accept that, to the point you've yet to once engage in the math because you know you can't counter it.

How is telling you how many shots he contest a game versus how many FGA against him a game not quantifying it? That does not in any way shape or form show Jokic is a plus impact defender. It's like you're just ingoring every metric that puts him as a bottom feeder defensively. I'm not telling you my feelings, I'm giving yout the actual data...and asking how is that effort? How is having 20 FGA attempts on you but only contesting five effort?

You saying his three steals a game than Gobert's level of impact on shots defended is just bull, especially when getting a deflection doesn't end the defensive position and the team can just score within the next shot clock.

Gobert's actually defends the rim, and in turn...actually imtimitades players even attempting while opposing players get excited at seeing Jokic under the rim because they know per him being in place to defend 20 shots but only contesting 5, he isn't going to show any effort. So I'll ask again...because you side stepped my only question in the above post...how is having 20 opportunities to defend but only defending on 5 effort? or can we agree that he lacks effort when defending shots?

[dhsilv2]

I'm not talking about Luka, not sure if that was a response to my post. Kentucky, Jokic has the most shot attempts against him a game, over 20, yet he only contest five. This isn't effort. And since we're talking about Luka that's only one more contest than Jokic, despite Jokic having nearly 7 more attempts against him

You keep using this contest stuff as if it's this game changer. You've yet to again make any attempt to quantify this. Every method we've got shows Jokic has a plus impact on defense. And you've made it crystal clear you're not able ot put all the data points together to try and quantify your feelings.

But at the end of the day where we ultimately get back to is this. 3 steals a game is worth more than Gobert level impact to shots defended. And that's really what this has boiled down to. you're refusing to accept that, to the point you've yet to once engage in the math because you know you can't counter it.

How is telling you how many shots he contest a game versus how many FGA against him a game not quantifying it? That does not in any way shape or form show Jokic is a plus impact defender. It's like you're just ingoring every metric that puts him as a bottom feeder defensively. I'm not telling you my feelings, I'm giving yout the actual data...and asking how is that effort? How is having 20 FGA attempts on you but only contesting five effort?

You saying his three steals a game than Gobert's level of impact on shots defended is just bull, especially when getting a deflection doesn't end the defensive position and the team can just score within the next shot clock.

Gobert's actually defends the rim, and in turn...actually imtimitades players even attempting while opposing players get excited at seeing Jokic under the rim because they know per him being in place to defend 20 shots but only contesting 5, he isn't going to show any effort. So I'll ask again...because you side stepped my only question in the above post...how is having 20 opportunities to defend but only defending on 5 effort? or can we agree that he lacks effort when defending shots?

I haven't ignored any data you've provided. I've explained why contesting isn't important. I've explained why the 20 shots a game is a huge plus. I didn't say Jokic is having the same impact as Gobert. I was hoping to encourage you to ask questions about why his steals offsetting the defensive impact of Gobert could be real when we agree Gobert is a much better defender. But instead you made stuff up that I didn't say.

Again for the 20th time. It's better to be in a play than to be out of the play. There is no other aspect of defense more important than this. This is 90% of defense. Most plays a player isn't the one guarding the final shot attempt. And all that work is just as important as when you are the one guarding the shot. The key to playing good defense is to be in the right place, stay in the play, and to not screw up. And you to this point have still failed to even start to listen to this.

So you can keep repeating your shot attempts and contested shots till you're blue in the face. Most plays don't end in the shot even being taken against any one player. And yet Jokic being in the drop has a key role to play on every single defensive play. I've tried 1000x to explain this and you've yet to even once acknowledge this.

[DimesandKnicks]

You keep using this contest stuff as if it's this game changer. You've yet to again make any attempt to quantify this. Every method we've got shows Jokic has a plus impact on defense. And you've made it crystal clear you're not able ot put all the data points together to try and quantify your feelings.

But at the end of the day where we ultimately get back to is this. 3 steals a game is worth more than Gobert level impact to shots defended. And that's really what this has boiled down to. you're refusing to accept that, to the point you've yet to once engage in the math because you know you can't counter it.

How is telling you how many shots he contest a game versus how many FGA against him a game not quantifying it? That does not in any way shape or form show Jokic is a plus impact defender. It's like you're just ingoring every metric that puts him as a bottom feeder defensively. I'm not telling you my feelings, I'm giving yout the actual data...and asking how is that effort? How is having 20 FGA attempts on you but only contesting five effort?

You saying his three steals a game than Gobert's level of impact on shots defended is just bull, especially when getting a deflection doesn't end the defensive position and the team can just score within the next shot clock.

Gobert's actually defends the rim, and in turn...actually imtimitades players even attempting while opposing players get excited at seeing Jokic under the rim because they know per him being in place to defend 20 shots but only contesting 5, he isn't going to show any effort. So I'll ask again...because you side stepped my only question in the above post...how is having 20 opportunities to defend but only defending on 5 effort? or can we agree that he lacks effort when defending shots?

I haven't ignored any data you've provided. I've explained why contesting isn't important. I've explained why the 20 shots a game is a huge plus. I didn't say Jokic is having the same impact as Gobert. I was hoping to encourage you to ask questions about why his steals offsetting the defensive impact of Gobert could be real when we agree Gobert is a much better defender. But instead you made stuff up that I didn't say.

Again for the 20th time. It's better to be in a play than to be out of the play. There is no other aspect of defense more important than this. This is 90% of defense. Most plays a player isn't the one guarding the final shot attempt. And all that work is just as important as when you are the one guarding the shot. The key to playing good defense is to be in the right place, stay in the play, and to not screw up. And you to this point have still failed to even start to listen to this.

So you can keep repeating your shot attempts and contested shots till you're blue in the face. Most plays don't end in the shot even being taken against any one player. And yet Jokic being in the drop has a key role to play on every single defensive play. I've tried 1000x to explain this and you've yet to even once acknowledge this.

This was a long response but you didn’t actually answer the question, for a second time

[nomansland]

I've been avoiding basketball chat for a bit because that was a total spanking. PBut rops to the Lakers for having designed a great game plan. Malone was thoroughly outcoached and they deserved the win. MPJ was a particular disappoinment and Strawther was a disaster.

But it's one game. The Lakers came out like it was the playoffs and the Nuggets came out like they were playing Charlotte. This is either a wake-up call or evidence that the Nuggets don't have it this year. We'll see in the next 5 games to come. I fear they don't have it and will have to trade MPJ. But let's see.

I'm just glad I've learned to not take these things personally. Basketball is fun, but it's just basketball.

[dhsilv2]

How is telling you how many shots he contest a game versus how many FGA against him a game not quantifying it? That does not in any way shape or form show Jokic is a plus impact defender. It's like you're just ingoring every metric that puts him as a bottom feeder defensively. I'm not telling you my feelings, I'm giving yout the actual data...and asking how is that effort? How is having 20 FGA attempts on you but only contesting five effort?

You saying his three steals a game than Gobert's level of impact on shots defended is just bull, especially when getting a deflection doesn't end the defensive position and the team can just score within the next shot clock.

Gobert's actually defends the rim, and in turn...actually imtimitades players even attempting while opposing players get excited at seeing Jokic under the rim because they know per him being in place to defend 20 shots but only contesting 5, he isn't going to show any effort. So I'll ask again...because you side stepped my only question in the above post...how is having 20 opportunities to defend but only defending on 5 effort? or can we agree that he lacks effort when defending shots?

I haven't ignored any data you've provided. I've explained why contesting isn't important. I've explained why the 20 shots a game is a huge plus. I didn't say Jokic is having the same impact as Gobert. I was hoping to encourage you to ask questions about why his steals offsetting the defensive impact of Gobert could be real when we agree Gobert is a much better defender. But instead you made stuff up that I didn't say.

Again for the 20th time. It's better to be in a play than to be out of the play. There is no other aspect of defense more important than this. This is 90% of defense. Most plays a player isn't the one guarding the final shot attempt. And all that work is just as important as when you are the one guarding the shot. The key to playing good defense is to be in the right place, stay in the play, and to not screw up. And you to this point have still failed to even start to listen to this.

So you can keep repeating your shot attempts and contested shots till you're blue in the face. Most plays don't end in the shot even being taken against any one player. And yet Jokic being in the drop has a key role to play on every single defensive play. I've tried 1000x to explain this and you've yet to even once acknowledge this.

This was a long response but you didn’t actually answer the question, for a second time

I've answered that question 50 times already. I've built a dozen arguments about why Jokic's effort level is high using that data point.

[DimesandKnicks]

I haven't ignored any data you've provided. I've explained why contesting isn't important. I've explained why the 20 shots a game is a huge plus. I didn't say Jokic is having the same impact as Gobert. I was hoping to encourage you to ask questions about why his steals offsetting the defensive impact of Gobert could be real when we agree Gobert is a much better defender. But instead you made stuff up that I didn't say.

Again for the 20th time. It's better to be in a play than to be out of the play. There is no other aspect of defense more important than this. This is 90% of defense. Most plays a player isn't the one guarding the final shot attempt. And all that work is just as important as when you are the one guarding the shot. The key to playing good defense is to be in the right place, stay in the play, and to not screw up. And you to this point have still failed to even start to listen to this.

So you can keep repeating your shot attempts and contested shots till you're blue in the face. Most plays don't end in the shot even being taken against any one player. And yet Jokic being in the drop has a key role to play on every single defensive play. I've tried 1000x to explain this and you've yet to even once acknowledge this.

This was a long response but you didn’t actually answer the question, for a second time

I've answered that question 50 times already. I've built a dozen arguments about why Jokic's effort level is high using that data point.

I only asked the question twice as far as I know. I’m asking if you think having players attempt 20 shots on Jokic but Jokic only contesting 5 is demonstrative of a lack of defensive effort. Not anything else.

I’m not even going to go into the idea that him defending 20 shots is a reflection of effort because Kat is not so far behind him and he’s trash and when I watch Jokic play teams spam pnr.

I’m just asking you if you think Jokic only contesting 5 out of 20 attempts reflects poor effort defensively

Not is he high effort in other aspects of defense, in those particular situations, do you think he’s exercising effort

[HotRocks34]

I've been avoiding basketball chat for a bit because that was a total spanking. PBut rops to the Lakers for having designed a great game plan. Malone was thoroughly outcoached and they deserved the win. MPJ was a particular disappoinment and Strawther was a disaster.

But it's one game. The Lakers came out like it was the playoffs and the Nuggets came out like they were playing Charlotte. This is either a wake-up call or evidence that the Nuggets don't have it this year. We'll see in the next 5 games to come. I fear they don't have it and will have to trade MPJ. But let's see.

I'm just glad I've learned to not take these things personally. Basketball is fun, but it's just basketball.

To beat the Nuggets, you have to get the ball out of Jokic's hands or at least be able to make things difficult for him.

Minny and OKC know that, and now LAL is figuring it out, also.

If you can make it where the other Nuggets have to make the right reads and perform well to beat you, they're beatable.

Yes it's a one game sample but the principle is the correct one.

[hardenASG13]

You keep using this contest stuff as if it's this game changer. You've yet to again make any attempt to quantify this. Every method we've got shows Jokic has a plus impact on defense. And you've made it crystal clear you're not able ot put all the data points together to try and quantify your feelings.

But at the end of the day where we ultimately get back to is this. 3 steals a game is worth more than Gobert level impact to shots defended. And that's really what this has boiled down to. you're refusing to accept that, to the point you've yet to once engage in the math because you know you can't counter it.

How is telling you how many shots he contest a game versus how many FGA against him a game not quantifying it? That does not in any way shape or form show Jokic is a plus impact defender. It's like you're just ingoring every metric that puts him as a bottom feeder defensively. I'm not telling you my feelings, I'm giving yout the actual data...and asking how is that effort? How is having 20 FGA attempts on you but only contesting five effort?

You saying his three steals a game than Gobert's level of impact on shots defended is just bull, especially when getting a deflection doesn't end the defensive position and the team can just score within the next shot clock.

Gobert's actually defends the rim, and in turn...actually imtimitades players even attempting while opposing players get excited at seeing Jokic under the rim because they know per him being in place to defend 20 shots but only contesting 5, he isn't going to show any effort. So I'll ask again...because you side stepped my only question in the above post...how is having 20 opportunities to defend but only defending on 5 effort? or can we agree that he lacks effort when defending shots?

I haven't ignored any data you've provided. I've explained why contesting isn't important. I've explained why the 20 shots a game is a huge plus. I didn't say Jokic is having the same impact as Gobert. I was hoping to encourage you to ask questions about why his steals offsetting the defensive impact of Gobert could be real when we agree Gobert is a much better defender. But instead you made stuff up that I didn't say.

Again for the 20th time. It's better to be in a play than to be out of the play. There is no other aspect of defense more important than this. This is 90% of defense. Most plays a player isn't the one guarding the final shot attempt. And all that work is just as important as when you are the one guarding the shot. The key to playing good defense is to be in the right place, stay in the play, and to not screw up. And you to this point have still failed to even start to listen to this.

So you can keep repeating your shot attempts and contested shots till you're blue in the face. Most plays don't end in the shot even being taken against any one player. And yet Jokic being in the drop has a key role to play on every single defensive play. I've tried 1000x to explain this and you've yet to even once acknowledge this.

Contesting, for a center who is your helpside guy, is very important though. It's clear to anyone with eyes that most times guys drive against Denver Jokic doesn't even jump. No stats needed, and denying that is absurd.