Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[prophet_of_rage]

I would be inclined to say old man yelling at clouds except he isn’t all that old.

They both made the choices which they considered best and despite being on the Jordan side of the overall debate I don’t consider LeBron’s path to his titles to have been any easier, that path may have been more difficult if anything. As others have said LeBron didn’t have the choice to do as Jordan did and stay with the franchise he was drafted by if he wanted to win titles. I also tend to believe Jordan might have left the Bulls if things hadn’t started to come together there.

I agree with Stockton the other way though, and disagree with those who deflect credit from Jordan to Phil Jackson, Krause, or players such as Rodman or even Pippen, sure they were significant contributors but it was all built around Jordan imo.

Jordan was going to sign with the Knicks if the Bulls said no to his 30 mil contract. Lebron woukd have stated in Cleveland but his owner said I just bought the team. I'm not soending any money on players.

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[prophet_of_rage]

Obviously, John Stockton does. Does it matter how he colluded?

Well, he's just some old guy shaking his fist at the clouds lol

Stockton and anyone else who hate LeBron would be happier if LeBron stayed in CLE his entire career and never won a title.

It is the oddest thing I've ever seen.

Again, you have no idea that this is true and from all we saw it probably isn't.

This is a basketball forum, everyone is yelling at clouds, they just vary in age!

Clrveland's new owner was maxed out on credit. He wasn't going to spend on players.

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[prophet_of_rage]

Again, you have no idea that this is true and from all we saw it probably isn't.

This is a basketball forum, everyone is yelling at clouds, they just vary in age!

And you have no idea that it's not true. But LeBron never winning is what all who despise him wanted, for sure.

He just happened to be too good and took 3 franchises, with 3 different coaches, and 3 different sidekicks to the top. Kudos to him, GOAT.

You don't seem to understand how this works. I wasn't the one propagating the fantasy that he never wins. That who you would seem to think is the goat, somehow would never win. Even as ownership had just recently changed. Is he the goat in your mind or isn't he?

The GOAT can't overcome cheap.ownership. Jordan couldn't get his seventh because Krause said enough is enough. Gilbert said that on day 1 of ownership.

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[prophet_of_rage]

Man, if the GM is not doing their job why not build your own team. In the NBA, your legacy is stupidly determined by titles. If I can build my legacy I will do it; if not, people will call me a loser otherwise.

There’s levels to it. Trying to stack the deck repeatedly is not the sign of true competitors

I think LeBron would have been looked at more favorably if he stayed in Miami after the decline and retirements of Wade and Bosh. Miami was a competent organization; LeBron just didn't have the patience to let them do anything as Wade and Bosh were clearly declining. Instead, LeBron went to the Cavs, who had a young all-star and a fresh #1 pick to trade for another all-star.

Riley flexed on him and took his cookies off the plane.

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[fansse]

I think this applies more to KD

[parapooper]

He did do it multiple times. Not just to miami, but back to cleveland, then to lakers and facilitates the AD trade. It seems like a career pattern. He seems to be allergic to overcoming adversity (2016 might be the exception there, but that was 2 years after he tucked tail and ran away from miami)

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?
Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

[ball_takes23]

I don't think you know what adversity is.

There are levels to this, we are talking nothing more than sports after all. But in nba terms I know enough to know lebron runs away from it and has done repeatedly

Lebron stayed with a badly-run, hopeless, bad-weather, small-market team longer than everyone else of the top10+ GOATs _combined_ (despite getting more criticism for not winning than everyone else of the top1000+ GOATs combined while there)

MJ ran away from one of the cushiest situations in NBA history, then ran back to one of the cushiest situations in NBA history, then again ran away from one of the cushiest situations in NBA history ....

The Bulls have never made a single finals appearance before or after MJ was on the team. You guys act like MJ was drafted into some cushy situation when in reality MJ was playing with coke addicts for the first 3 years of his career, in his 4th season they drafted Pippen who was a very raw 7 ppg rookie and took 3 years to develop into a competent sidekick, then he spent the last 2 years on a hapless Wizards team instead of ringchasing with the Lakers. MJ had about a 7-8 year window in his career where it was even remotely possible to even consider that his team could win the title, and he ended up with a ring in 6 of those years. Undisputed GOAT

[michaelm]

And you have no idea that it's not true. But LeBron never winning is what all who despise him wanted, for sure.

He just happened to be too good and took 3 franchises, with 3 different coaches, and 3 different sidekicks to the top. Kudos to him, GOAT.

You don't seem to understand how this works. I wasn't the one propagating the fantasy that he never wins. That who you would seem to think is the goat, somehow would never win. Even as ownership had just recently changed. Is he the goat in your mind or isn't he?

The GOAT can't overcome cheap.ownership. Jordan couldn't get his seventh because Krause said enough is enough. Gilbert said that on day 1 of ownership.

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So the Bulls just happened to be a superbly run franchise during Jordan’s tenure ?. Please list all the titles they have won without Jordan. Krause, Jackson and Jordan made each other. I have no problem with LeBron’s choices as I have repeatedly said, but how is it a knock on Jordan that he made the best of what was available to him when he largely created his own situation ?. LeBron doubtless made the best of what was available to him/did all he could do in his own situation as well but Jordan had nothing to do with LeBron’s situation other than LeBron deciding his ambition was to match or surpass him, hardly Jordan’s problem either. There are endless could’ves would’ves should’ves for everything that has ever happened in the history of the human race.

[Myth]

There’s levels to it. Trying to stack the deck repeatedly is not the sign of true competitors

I think LeBron would have been looked at more favorably if he stayed in Miami after the decline and retirements of Wade and Bosh. Miami was a competent organization; LeBron just didn't have the patience to let them do anything as Wade and Bosh were clearly declining. Instead, LeBron went to the Cavs, who had a young all-star and a fresh #1 pick to trade for another all-star.

Riley flexed on him and took his cookies off the plane.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

I don’t know if this is an analogy or if there was a literal cookie issue that I had not heard of.

[Yank3525]

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?
Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

This is such bad faith.

He retired because they broke up the team. This is the opposite of LeBron. MJ could gone on and latch on to another contender in 1999 to get ring number 7.

[MightyMouse10]

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

[Cavsfansince84]

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

AD made 4 all star teams with LeBron
Kyrie made 2
Big Z made 1 where I think he was last minute replacement
Ray made 0
Wade made 4

Also, in terms of impact Grant absolutely was better than Bosh or Love. He used similar shot volume on much better efficiency and then was a much better rebounder + defender(Love could rebound but not really defend, Bosh was the opposite). He couldn't possibly carry a team as a #1 scorer like those two did before but as a #3 he was a better fit/player. Then you have guys like Kukoc(best 6th man in the league at that time), Kerr off the bench(career best 3pt shooter even now) but the big thing is coaching. The Bulls had a goat hc with goat assistants that compensated for a lot of things.

[parapooper]

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

All-star selections are popularity contests, all-NBA selections are too but at least incorporate some objectivity (see Kobe 2014-16)
I mean Melo was an AS every year and was so bad (bottom 1% playoff impact) he would actually more than cancel out a legit all-NBA player.
Who cares who had the more popular team mates?

The facts remain:
Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but an NBA team consists of over a dozen players and a bunch of coaches, so only looking at 0 to 2 of them to judge how good a team is seems pretty nutty.
Then not even looking at how those 0 to 2 team members performed but only how popular they were just adds another level of dumb.

[MightyMouse10]

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

AD made 4 all star teams with LeBron
Kyrie made 2
Big Z made 1 where I think he was last minute replacement
Ray made 0
Wade made 4

Also, in terms of impact Grant absolutely was better than Bosh or Love. He used similar shot volume on much better efficiency and then was a much better rebounder + defender(Love could rebound but not really defend, Bosh was the opposite). He couldn't possibly carry a team as a #1 scorer like those two did before but as a #3 he was a better fit/player. Then you have guys like Kukoc(best 6th man in the league at that time), Kerr off the bench(career best 3pt shooter even now) but the big thing is coaching. The Bulls had a goat hc with goat assistants that compensated for a lot of things.

I stated Selections not appearances. I dont agree with Grant> Love but respect the point. I would also suggest the majority of people would agree with me.

[MightyMouse10]

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

All-star selections are popularity contests, all-NBA selections are too but at least incorporate some objectivity (see Kobe 2014-16)
I mean Melo was an AS every year and was so bad (bottom 1% playoff impact) he would actually more than cancel out a legit all-NBA player.
Who cares who had the more popular team mates?

The facts remain:
Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but an NBA team consists of over a dozen players and a bunch of coaches, so only looking at 0 to 2 of them to judge how good a team is seems pretty nutty.
Then not even looking at how those 0 to 2 team members performed but only how popular they were just adds another level of dumb.

Selectively pinpointing ALL NBA is not facts. Facts are not looking at 16 years of LeBron's career to prove a point and then using the extra season's stats as a determining factor in any debate. If you were to include 4 of ADs ALL NBA seasons that makes 8 to 2 All NBA teammates.

Popularity contest or not, the popular opinion is Lebron has had better players than Jordan. To dismiss All Star selections as a comparative of talent is absurd.

Also, you're probably not aware of this but Dwyane Wade ,Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis and Luka Doncic are All NBA talents and were while playing with Lebron. Since you're pointing out players 3-15 why don't you back your statement up with stats and reasoning on how Lebron's teammates from 3-15 were worse than Jordans. Same with Steph and Kobe.

I don't think my point is really debatable and it seems to be the point you're avoiding to argue. Lebron has hand selected better teammates than Jordan, Steph and/or Kobe.

I say this all with always adding to my point that I think Lebron was a GOAT level talent. His "decisions" have diminished the perception of his championships as John Stockton had mentioned.

[DimesandKnicks]

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

[DimesandKnicks]

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

AD made 4 all star teams with LeBron
Kyrie made 2
Big Z made 1 where I think he was last minute replacement
Ray made 0
Wade made 4

Also, in terms of impact Grant absolutely was better than Bosh or Love. He used similar shot volume on much better efficiency and then was a much better rebounder + defender(Love could rebound but not really defend, Bosh was the opposite). He couldn't possibly carry a team as a #1 scorer like those two did before but as a #3 he was a better fit/player. Then you have guys like Kukoc(best 6th man in the league at that time), Kerr off the bench(career best 3pt shooter even now) but the big thing is coaching. The Bulls had a goat hc with goat assistants that compensated for a lot of things.

I stated Selections not appearances. I dont agree with Grant> Love but respect the point. I would also suggest the majority of people would agree with me.

Love was useless in the playoffs

[MightyMouse10]

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

You are failing to see the point.

Lebrons teammates with All Star Selections- 24
Jordan teammates with All Star Selections- 8
Kobe teammates with All Star Selections- 16
Steph teammates with All Star Selections- 15

I am comparing All-star selections while playing with said player not comparing Total number of All Stars andor total number of All star selections. The broader context in this is he played with more All-star at the prime of the careers.

[parapooper]

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

You are failing to see the point.

Lebrons teammates with All Star Selections- 24
Jordan teammates with All Star Selections- 8
Kobe teammates with All Star Selections- 16
Steph teammates with All Star Selections- 15

I am comparing All-star selections while playing with said player not comparing Total number of All Stars andor total number of All star selections. The broader context in this is he played with more All-star at the prime of the careers.

And as I indicated, number of all stars is a criterium only complete idiots use:
- looks only at 0 to 2 of 20 team mates + coaches and completely ignores fit and synergy
- even if you want to go that route: all-star is a popularity measure - all-NBA is more of a measure of actual performance and Jordan had better support according to that and weaker competition (at least in the finals)

[MightyMouse10]

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

You are failing to see the point.

Lebrons teammates with All Star Selections- 24
Jordan teammates with All Star Selections- 8
Kobe teammates with All Star Selections- 16
Steph teammates with All Star Selections- 15

I am comparing All-star selections while playing with said player not comparing Total number of All Stars andor total number of All star selections. The broader context in this is he played with more All-star at the prime of the careers.

And as I indicated, number of all stars is a criterium only complete idiots use:
- looks only at 0 to 2 of 20 team mates + coaches and completely ignores fit and synergy
- even if you want to go that route: all-star is a popularity measure - all-NBA is more of a measure of actual performance and Jordan had better support according to that and weaker competition (at least in the finals)

And your argument is telling me I am a complete idiot for using All Star selections while selecting a very specific measure during a very specific time period that doesnt quantify the actual talent he played with. In my opinion, stating that Wade, Bosh, Luka, AD, Kyrie and Love were not ALL NBA talents while playing with Lebron is what a complete idiot would say.