Pablo Torre: Kawhi/Clippers/Ballmer/Aspiration Thread (part 2)

[Larry Ellison]

You're clearly not an attorney and you don't know what you're talking about. The board members have fiduciary duties to the investors. They have statutory duties to creditors once they know, or should know, the company is at risk of insolvency. You very much cannot just hand out the company's money because it's not your money.

I don't know what I'm talking about? You don't understand why people incorporate, it's to protect their personal assets. In America's financial system, you only lose what you put in. If Aspiration paid a consultant $1 million dollars for some powerpoints, how is that any different. The deliverable is the powerpoint, unfortunately for the investors you cannot liquidate the asset of a powerpoint for the same market value in return, but that company that delivered the powerpoint won't be expected to pay something back because they have a rightful deliverable and there is no proof of coercion or any sort of under the table deal that led to them paying for this. In this case the deliverable for Kawhi Leonard as a sports media figure was simply his endorsement, yes that's how the world works.

With the Kawhi Leonard situation you are insinuating that there was some under the table deal for Kawhi Leonard to be paid less in the NBA for more money, mind you he's currently making 35% of the salary cap aka he is NOT being underpaid at all in the NBA, he's actually making exactly what he should. That alone is enough to rule out the notion of an "under the table deal" I scratch yours you scratch because where the hell is the benefit for Ballmer, other than retaining Kawhi Leonard on a supermax extension. The idea that Ballmer invested money into this company just for it to get funneled back to Leonard is ABSURD.

The company paid $300 million to the Clippers as part of partnership for the Intuit Dome, it's natural that they would also sponsor the highest paid player.

Thank you, because I've now read the article from ESPN that shares more details and am now even less convinced that there was any aspect of Kawhi doing something wrong. When you look at the names of people that invested into this company it is so clear that this was a massive LA network event of people who were hopping what they believed was a good idea. The CEO stated there were obligations that Kawhi Leonard had to meet as part of his sponsorship with this company, the fact that the company went under basically frees Kawhi's of those obligations, clearly they never got around to enforcing them.

The fraud of Sanberg, it sucks that it happened, and Sanberg can be federally charged, anyone who assisted Sanberg can be federally charged and potentially held somewhat liable for what they defrauded. The entire Board will not be held liable to creditors, employees will not be held liable to creditors, that's how the justice system works, one person's wrong doing will not screw over an entire group of people, which is part of what allows America to have a good business environment.

I sincerely hope that no one who is reading this comes away with the impression that you have a reliable understanding of the law. If they do, and act on it, they're going to need as many attorneys as Leonard and Ballmer. You've invented, from whole cloth, some version of corporate sponsorship that permits the officers and board members to breach their fiduciary duties to investors without consequence.

Also, the company didn't actually pay $300M to the Clippers. They agreed to pay the Clippers over a very long time.

I am with jbk1234 on this. You don't understand the law. Every Board member is a fiduciary.

[Godymas]

I don't know what I'm talking about? You don't understand why people incorporate, it's to protect their personal assets. In America's financial system, you only lose what you put in. If Aspiration paid a consultant $1 million dollars for some powerpoints, how is that any different. The deliverable is the powerpoint, unfortunately for the investors you cannot liquidate the asset of a powerpoint for the same market value in return, but that company that delivered the powerpoint won't be expected to pay something back because they have a rightful deliverable and there is no proof of coercion or any sort of under the table deal that led to them paying for this. In this case the deliverable for Kawhi Leonard as a sports media figure was simply his endorsement, yes that's how the world works.

With the Kawhi Leonard situation you are insinuating that there was some under the table deal for Kawhi Leonard to be paid less in the NBA for more money, mind you he's currently making 35% of the salary cap aka he is NOT being underpaid at all in the NBA, he's actually making exactly what he should. That alone is enough to rule out the notion of an "under the table deal" I scratch yours you scratch because where the hell is the benefit for Ballmer, other than retaining Kawhi Leonard on a supermax extension. The idea that Ballmer invested money into this company just for it to get funneled back to Leonard is ABSURD.

The company paid $300 million to the Clippers as part of partnership for the Intuit Dome, it's natural that they would also sponsor the highest paid player.

Thank you, because I've now read the article from ESPN that shares more details and am now even less convinced that there was any aspect of Kawhi doing something wrong. When you look at the names of people that invested into this company it is so clear that this was a massive LA network event of people who were hopping what they believed was a good idea. The CEO stated there were obligations that Kawhi Leonard had to meet as part of his sponsorship with this company, the fact that the company went under basically frees Kawhi's of those obligations, clearly they never got around to enforcing them.

The fraud of Sanberg, it sucks that it happened, and Sanberg can be federally charged, anyone who assisted Sanberg can be federally charged and potentially held somewhat liable for what they defrauded. The entire Board will not be held liable to creditors, employees will not be held liable to creditors, that's how the justice system works, one person's wrong doing will not screw over an entire group of people, which is part of what allows America to have a good business environment.

I sincerely hope that no one who is reading this comes away with the impression that you have a reliable understanding of the law. If they do, and act on it, they're going to need as many attorneys as Leonard and Ballmer. You've invented, from whole cloth, some version of corporate sponsorship that permits the officers and board members to breach their fiduciary duties to investors without consequence.

Also, the company didn't actually pay $300M to the Clippers. They agreed to pay the Clippers over a very long time.

I am with jbk1234 on this. You don't understand the law. Every Board member is a fiduciary.

You’re right, that is my only mistake, all the board members will be liable. Kawhi being held responsible is made up fantasy, as is Ballmer because he is actually one of the defrauded investors.

[Godymas]

You're clearly not an attorney and you don't know what you're talking about. The board members have fiduciary duties to the investors. They have statutory duties to creditors once they know, or should know, the company is at risk of insolvency. You very much cannot just hand out the company's money because it's not your money.

I don't know what I'm talking about? You don't understand why people incorporate, it's to protect their personal assets. In America's financial system, you only lose what you put in. If Aspiration paid a consultant $1 million dollars for some powerpoints, how is that any different. The deliverable is the powerpoint, unfortunately for the investors you cannot liquidate the asset of a powerpoint for the same market value in return, but that company that delivered the powerpoint won't be expected to pay something back because they have a rightful deliverable and there is no proof of coercion or any sort of under the table deal that led to them paying for this. In this case the deliverable for Kawhi Leonard as a sports media figure was simply his endorsement, yes that's how the world works.

With the Kawhi Leonard situation you are insinuating that there was some under the table deal for Kawhi Leonard to be paid less in the NBA for more money, mind you he's currently making 35% of the salary cap aka he is NOT being underpaid at all in the NBA, he's actually making exactly what he should. That alone is enough to rule out the notion of an "under the table deal" I scratch yours you scratch because where the hell is the benefit for Ballmer, other than retaining Kawhi Leonard on a supermax extension. The idea that Ballmer invested money into this company just for it to get funneled back to Leonard is ABSURD.

The company paid $300 million to the Clippers as part of partnership for the Intuit Dome, it's natural that they would also sponsor the highest paid player.

Thank you, because I've now read the article from ESPN that shares more details and am now even less convinced that there was any aspect of Kawhi doing something wrong. When you look at the names of people that invested into this company it is so clear that this was a massive LA network event of people who were hopping what they believed was a good idea. The CEO stated there were obligations that Kawhi Leonard had to meet as part of his sponsorship with this company, the fact that the company went under basically frees Kawhi's of those obligations, clearly they never got around to enforcing them.

The fraud of Sanberg, it sucks that it happened, and Sanberg can be federally charged, anyone who assisted Sanberg can be federally charged and potentially held somewhat liable for what they defrauded. The entire Board will not be held liable to creditors, employees will not be held liable to creditors, that's how the justice system works, one person's wrong doing will not screw over an entire group of people, which is part of what allows America to have a good business environment.

I sincerely hope that no one who is reading this comes away with the impression that you have a reliable understanding of the law. If they do, and act on it, they're going to need as many attorneys as Leonard and Ballmer. You've invented, from whole cloth, some version of corporate sponsorship that permits the officers and board members to breach their fiduciary duties to investors without consequence.

Also, the company didn't actually pay $300M to the Clippers. They agreed to pay the Clippers over a very long time.

You’re right, that is the only incorrect statement I made, the board is liable for defrauding investors.

Is Kawhi Leonard a board member or a fidicuary?

The company didn’t actually pay $28M to Kawhi Leonard, they still owe him $7M.

Ballmer is an investor in the company, so Ballmer is one of the people that was defrauded by the company.

[Godymas]

Anyways, it’s another day and the NBA has mentioned nothing because why would they care about a little sponsorship deal? I watched Miles Bridges commit a poster last night on my team, in person. Who cares about Kawhi Leonard?

[God Squad]

Anyways, it’s another day and the NBA has mentioned nothing because why would they care about a little sponsorship deal? I watched Miles Bridges commit a poster last night on my team, in person. Who cares about Kawhi Leonard?

They've already said they're waiting until after the All-Star Game. There will likely be no updates or little from the NBA until then.

[jbk1234]

Anyways, it’s another day and the NBA has mentioned nothing because why would they care about a little sponsorship deal? I watched Miles Bridges commit a poster last night on my team, in person. Who cares about Kawhi Leonard?

The NBA hired the same law firm it did to investigate Donald Sterling. Months went by with no updates, and then there was a pretty big update.

[Larry Ellison]

Anyways, it’s another day and the NBA has mentioned nothing because why would they care about a little sponsorship deal? I watched Miles Bridges commit a poster last night on my team, in person. Who cares about Kawhi Leonard?

The NBA hired the same law firm it did to investigate Donald Sterling. Months went by with no updates, and then there was a pretty big update.

Wachtell firm is the best in the biz. They will give appropriate recommendations. What Adam Silver does, I cannot predict.

[Larry Ellison]

You're clearly not an attorney and you don't know what you're talking about. The board members have fiduciary duties to the investors. They have statutory duties to creditors once they know, or should know, the company is at risk of insolvency. You very much cannot just hand out the company's money because it's not your money.

I agree with this. No question fiduciary duties were breached.

If a thief steals a diamond, and then turns around and gives it to someone else as a gift or payment for services (doesn't matter) the police can reclaim the diamond and return it to the owner. Right?

Whether the recipient is charged with a crime would depend whether they knowingly accepted stolen merchandise. Right?

So if fraud has already been established, why wouldn't prosecutors be trying to clawback whatever money was paid to Kawhi? And if they can dig up any evidence of conspiracy on his part, wouldn't his shell companies be at risk of falling apart leaving him personally liable?

Bad analogy. This wasn't theft. The Aspiration fraud involved falsification of financial statements to obtain bank financing. They also happened to have a relationship with Kawhi.