ECF: | (1) Cleveland Cavaliers vs (2) Toronto Raptors | CLE 2-1

[Kabookalu]

I'm seeing a lot of Rap fans bringing up all kinds of stats/records from the regular season. You guys should know from watching the 1st 2 rounds that playoff versions of teams can manifest themselves very differently from their RS norms.

Cavs are playing nothing like they did during the regular season and the Raps should be excited to be facing a team at their best because that kind of pressure will force you to grow and pick up your game.

The Raps have shown mental toughness these playoffs to gut out 2 game 7 victories, so I'm sure they'll respond and make this competitive. I'm excited to see how the Cavs take on this challenge because if they want to get back to the finals and be competitive, they need to be tested.

Yeah, pointless bringing up regular season numbers into the equation when we won every matchup with every team we faced, and got pushed to 7 games. And the reason why we won two of those games was entirely because of Kyle Lowry. Lowry absolutely needs to play stellar every single game for us to be in it (or if DeRozan actually shows up).

[Dupp]

If other cavs hold their own defensively and lebron can actually focus in on derozen without having to worry about covering for others things will get very very ugly for derozen.

I do expect Lowry to torch Kyrie but he should give it back to him all the same.

[JustLucky]

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

I understand....the basketball isn't pretty. But what baffles me is the fact that nobody is crediting the Raptors, Pacers and Heat defense for the reason that the offenses struggled.

Let's look at facts, not just conjecture. The Raptors were 0-2 against Golden State, losing by margins of 3 and 5 points. They are 1-1 against San Antonio. They were 1-1 against Oklahoma City. They were 2-0 against the LA Clippers. They were 2-0 against Portland. They were 2-0 against Dallas. They were 2-0 against Memphis.

So, against the top 7 teams in the west, the Raptors went 10-4. 10-4 against this so called "superior" conference.

The argument against this is that "that was the regular season". But let's think about that. Regular season success translates to postseason success. When was the last time a 8th seed won the NBA Championship? 4th seed? Can't remember? Exactly. The teams that do extremely well in the regular season are the teams that will do well in the playoffs.

So, people can continuously say that the Eastern Conference is the weaker conference, but I BEG to differ, because they have little facts.

Thunder are 0-2 against Cavs, 1-1 against Raptors, 1-1 against Heat, 1-1 against Hawks, 1-1 against Celtics, 2-0 against Hornets, and 1-1 against Pacers.

My facts are this:
Raptors 10-4 against the West top 7. Thunder 7-7 against the East top 7.

My facts are also as I posted already:

Cavs first round: 42 win Pistons
Warriors first rond: 41 win Rockets.
Pistons 2-0 against Rockets this season.

Cavs second round: 48 win Hawks
Warriors second round: 44 win Blazers
Hawks 2-0 against Blazers

Cavs third round: 56 win Raptors
Warriors third round: 55 win Thunder
Raptors 1-1 against Thunder.

Do I think Raptors are better than the Thunder? Maybe, maybe not. They are 3-3 head to head in the last three years. But there is absolutely no argument to suggest the West is definitely better than the East, other than LeBron being 2-3 in the last 5 Finals (and the West's record against the East lottery teams, but those teams are irrelevant as they aren't playoff teams). But there are so many statistics, as pointed above, that suggest otherwise.

Pretty offense has gotten to everyone's head. The West is better offensively. But defensively it's the East. 10 of the top 15 teams in DefEff are in the East.

Like the Raptors, the defensive, 54-win 2004 Pistons were also taken to 7 games in the East semis (by the 47 win Nets), but those dudes manhandled the 61-win Pacers en route to the Finals. It wouldn't surprise me if the defensive, 56-win 2016 Raptors did the same to the 57-win Cavs. They are different than GS, OKC and Cle. With those teams, their offense leads to defense. With the Raptors, their defense leads to offense. They are both effective.

TL;DR? WE DO NOT KNOW WHO THE BETTER CONFERENCE IS. Last year it was the West. This year it's impossible to say. Don't let pretty offense fool you.

West had a better record both among ALL teams and among the 4 playoff teams left, the west also has a winning record agianst the east.

warriors + OKC + spurs + Clippers record against east: 91-29

Raptors + Cavs + heat + hawks record against the west : 75-45

The above is pretty definitive to me. We're talking a (91-75/75) = 21.3% difference in how many wins the best teams in the west won over the east vs how many wins the best east teams won over the west.

east vs west overall record: 218-234

The west had both the better overall conference and the better record against the opposite among top 4 teams. The west is both better at the top and better overall. BASED ON WINS, which are NOT cherry picked like yours are. "Against top 7 teams" is a very absurd and cherry picked stat. I'm picking it simple, the teams that played in the ECSF and WCSF with the best 4 records in each conference, ie the teams that actually had some semblance of a chance of winning a title. Your top 7 argument just suggest that the middle pack of east teams is better than the middle pack of west teams, but I'd rather look at the BEST teams, or ALL the teams.

The east may have better defense overall, but the west is almost as good defensively. However the east is SO behind offensively so the overall gap ends up being huge.

only the top 2 matter here tho.. and its pretty even regular season and vs

[Dupp]

A lot more minutes logged by the raptors (obviously) but it'll be a factor if they keep this series close.


Fun fact for the series - Kyries hit 2 more threes than lowry in the post season.... on 40 less attempts. That is insane, Mostly in a bad way for lowry.

[mtlraps]

I don't think the raps have any real chance to actually win this, everything needs to go right for that to happen but this is gonna be the time the States get to see how good Lowry is and how deep the Raptors are.

[TheGameWinner]

A lot more minutes logged by the raptors (obviously) but it'll be a factor if they keep this series close.


Fun fact for the series - Kyries hit 2 more threes than lowry in the post season.... on 40 less attempts. That is insane, Mostly in a bad way for lowry.

Lowrys elbow swelling is going down. He couldn't shoot in the first round. Second round his injury got better after 2 games

[mtcan]

one team gets the ECF spot by default. its a bad division.

The funny thing is the West only has one more good team in it, lol. Four teams had a shot at the WCF (no one else would beat Cleveland or Toronto either btw), and one of those (Clippers) is basically the Atlanta Hawks in the playoffs.

Toronto is not getting nearly enough credit here. Mentioned earlier in the thread if JV can come back Cleveland might be in trouble. Lowry will get to the basket at will, and Cleveland doesn't adjust personal so JV's length will neutralize Thompson. Folks thinking Cleveland just rolls through this team are mistaken.

Not buying it. They beat a Miami heat w/o Bosh and hen whiteside the last game. The east just looks better this year because all the mid tier teams are a lot closer to each other. There is still nobody close to taking out Cleveland.

But then again, the Cavs seem to lay an egg every so often and fool you.

So if Bosh medically retires this summer...the Heat will forever continue to use the excuse that they didn't have Bosh? The Heat are 3rd seed because they didn't have Bosh. They were 7th seed with him. By that measure...the Heat are a better team without him. Better get used to the idea of life without Bosh on the Heat. It might be more of a reality than you realize.

Yes, Whiteside was injured...but so was Valanciunas. And Valanciunas was having a greater impact on the series...dominating Whiteside and any other Heat big man. So by that measure...Toronto was at a greater disadvantage.

No more excuses. Toronto beat Miami...period. Game 7 wasn't even a contest.

[Spanish_Laker]

Cavs in 4.

[Zman80000]

IDK, man. I get why you want to be cautious but it shouldn't be at the expense of your own belief in the Cavs capabilities.

Biyombo will have his hands full if Frye/Love is at the 5. I'm a little less confident in Love's ability to blaze, but I must admit every time Frye shoots an open 3 I think it's going in. He is a true dead-eye.

Drummond has regularly abused us even more than Biyombo, so it's not like we'll be facing something new.

Valanciunas being out is the only reason I see us winning in 5 (maybe 4). Toronto's depth will suffer from it, and when LBJ is running with our bench it'll put even more pressure on them.

Being from and living in Cleveland, I'll always have my concerns. But Toronto is the team with the uphill battle in this series, not the Cavs.

True, but I guess that Orlando series (along with all the their past Cleveland sports failures) have permanently scarred me.

The thing people don't understand about Cleveland sports is we don't just lose. No, that would be too easy. The sports gods have to first get our hopes up and make us think that we actually have a chance - to taste a championship and finally end the drought. And then...boom! In an instant it all comes crashing down and we're facing reality once again.

I'd compare it to when Lucy makes Charlie Brown think she's going to keep the football in place. He's running and running and he's almost there, but then she takes it away at the last second and he falls flat on his face. That's Cleveland sports in a nutshell. The Drive...the Fumble...the Move...the Shot...Red Right 88...the Decision...Game 7 of the 1997 World Series...and the Cavs' injuries last season... It just doesn't end. And now we have probably the best Cleveland sports team in our entire history, but it still might not be enough, because we'll have to eventually get through what might be the greatest NBA team of all time.

So I'm taking it one game at a time. I thought we'd get though Orlando no problem, so I'm not going to disregard the Raptors and look towards the Finals already.

Well you are facing another cursed sports town now so no advantages there lol

Toronto drought 1993 to 2015.
Unless you count the CFL then you have a more recent win.
The Maple Leafs have won more recently than any CLeveland sports team.

Cleveland drought 1964 to 2015.

While 22 years is a long time, lol 51 years.

[Rastas]

Cavs in a sweep , Pistons was their toughest match up in the east this year.

[osucavs33]

I picked Cavs in 5, but if Lowry goes into Cav killer mode I can see Cavs in 6. I do not quite understand people who are picking Raptors in 7 though. I understand being excited for your team and thinking they have a shot as they very well could have a shot at the upset. If they do though it will have to be in 6 or less. There is almost no chance that a LeBron led team would lose a game 7 in their building with a chance to go to the finals. Any elite team it is hard to pick against them in that setting, and usually the outcome is the home team winning. I also feel the same way about the Warriors/Thunder. The Thunder clearly can win, but it would have to be in 6 or less. I don't see them winning a game 7 out there at Oracle.

[gothehornets]

The funny thing is the West only has one more good team in it, lol. Four teams had a shot at the WCF (no one else would beat Cleveland or Toronto either btw), and one of those (Clippers) is basically the Atlanta Hawks in the playoffs.

Toronto is not getting nearly enough credit here. Mentioned earlier in the thread if JV can come back Cleveland might be in trouble. Lowry will get to the basket at will, and Cleveland doesn't adjust personal so JV's length will neutralize Thompson. Folks thinking Cleveland just rolls through this team are mistaken.

Not buying it. They beat a Miami heat w/o Bosh and hen whiteside the last game. The east just looks better this year because all the mid tier teams are a lot closer to each other. There is still nobody close to taking out Cleveland.

But then again, the Cavs seem to lay an egg every so often and fool you.

So if Bosh medically retires this summer...the Heat will forever continue to use the excuse that they didn't have Bosh? The Heat are 3rd seed because they didn't have Bosh. They were 7th seed with him. By that measure...the Heat are a better team without him. Better get used to the idea of life without Bosh on the Heat. It might be more of a reality than you realize.

Yes, Whiteside was injured...but so was Valanciunas. And Valanciunas was having a greater impact on the series...dominating Whiteside and any other Heat big man. So by that measure...Toronto was at a greater disadvantage.

No more excuses. Toronto beat Miami...period. Game 7 wasn't even a contest.

i thought it had to do with joe johnson joining and josh richardson turning into kapono

[mtcan]

Not buying it. They beat a Miami heat w/o Bosh and hen whiteside the last game. The east just looks better this year because all the mid tier teams are a lot closer to each other. There is still nobody close to taking out Cleveland.

But then again, the Cavs seem to lay an egg every so often and fool you.

So if Bosh medically retires this summer...the Heat will forever continue to use the excuse that they didn't have Bosh? The Heat are 3rd seed because they didn't have Bosh. They were 7th seed with him. By that measure...the Heat are a better team without him. Better get used to the idea of life without Bosh on the Heat. It might be more of a reality than you realize.

Yes, Whiteside was injured...but so was Valanciunas. And Valanciunas was having a greater impact on the series...dominating Whiteside and any other Heat big man. So by that measure...Toronto was at a greater disadvantage.

No more excuses. Toronto beat Miami...period. Game 7 wasn't even a contest.

i thought it had to do with joe johnson joining and josh richardson turning into kapono

Also had something to do with unleashing Whiteside. There were rumblings earlier in the season was that Bosh and Whiteside couldn't coexist.

[Nebula1]

No JV sucks

[Green Backpack]

All I can ask is that the Raptors come out and play hard. Of course there is a talent disparity with these two teams, even more so with JV out, but heart can carry you to a victory or two. Play hard!

[DickGrayson]

Cavs in 5.

This is further Raps will ever go. They're tapped their potential. They should put this season in the vault and replay the entire summer. It was a successful one. Now they can get ready to pack it up and we'll see a repeat of the 2015 Finals.

[slothrop8]

I picked Cavs in 5, but if Lowry goes into Cav killer mode I can see Cavs in 6. I do not quite understand people who are picking Raptors in 7 though. I understand being excited for your team and thinking they have a shot as they very well could have a shot at the upset. If they do though it will have to be in 6 or less. There is almost no chance that a LeBron led team would lose a game 7 in their building with a chance to go to the finals. Any elite team it is hard to pick against them in that setting, and usually the outcome is the home team winning. I also feel the same way about the Warriors/Thunder. The Thunder clearly can win, but it would have to be in 6 or less. I don't see them winning a game 7 out there at Oracle.

I agree - I would see the likely outcomes of this series breaking down something like Cavs in 5 > Cavs in 6 > Cavs in 4 > Cavs in 7 > Raps in 6 > Raps in 5> Raps in 7 > Raps in 4. Some kind of weird chemistry implosion for Cleveland where things snowball on them or there's some kind of locker room fracturing incident that leads to the Raps miraculously winning in 5 seems more likely than a close series that ends with the Raptors strolling into Cleveland and winning a Game 7. I mean neither is particularly likely, but the weird meltdown scenario is probably slightly more viable. Any chance Tyrone Lue has been secretly dating Gloria James? If I start that rumour now - any chance it gains traction? Somebody get me Windhorst on the line.

[ebo]

I don't expect the Raptors to win, but this thread is eerily similar to the second round thread where everyone talked as if it was a forgone conclusion that the Heat would crush the Raptors.

Yes the Cavs are shooting lights out, but 8 games is a small sample size. It is a stretch to think they are going to continue to shoot historically from 3 as if it was the norm.

Yes JV is out, but the Raptors also won the season series against the Cavs and have successfully played injured all year.

Yes playoff Lebron is a nightmare, but Kyle and DD are actually playing well again so who knows if they can carry the Raptors to a game or two or three or four.

In any case, looking forward to a good long series!

[Duffman100]

Probably going to get destroyed. But Miami was predicted by many here to destroy us as well. People don't realize that the Raptors are actually a quality basketball team with a good amount of depth.

[everdiso]

A lot more minutes logged by the raptors (obviously) but it'll be a factor if they keep this series close.


Fun fact for the series - Kyries hit 2 more threes than lowry in the post season.... on 40 less attempts. That is insane, Mostly in a bad way for lowry.

Those numbers do clearly indicate what's gone on these playoffs - the raps have struggled because Lowry and Demar have played far worse than normal, while the Cavs have turned from good to unbeatable thanks to Frye performing at an elite level.

The question is - will either of these 2 factors continue this series?