2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

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Is this true?

Poll ended at Wed May 10, 2017 6:10 pm

Yes
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No
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Total votes: 372

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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#521 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri May 5, 2017 12:58 pm

jonjames wrote:I grew up watching iverson when I was younger..that was my era watching basketball..AI was an absolute warrior and one of best small guards to ever play..that being said the original premise is comparing peaks we not talking about resumes/careers we talking about peaks. What IT has done this season is unbelievable. His numbers speak for themselves and if we look at things objectively he's better than AI ever was at least this season.


Thank God some people still have reading comprehension skills left. You're the man.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#522 » by Duke4life831 » Fri May 5, 2017 1:00 pm

jonjames wrote:I grew up watching iverson when I was younger..that was my era watching basketball..AI was an absolute warrior and one of best small guards to ever play..that being said the original premise is comparing peaks we not talking about resumes/careers we talking about peaks. What IT has done this season is unbelievable. His numbers speak for themselves and if we look at things objectively he's better than AI ever was at least this season.


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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#523 » by Winter » Fri May 5, 2017 1:05 pm

Shouldn't you wait till this year playoff ends to do that comparison? What if he get locked in Cav series and eff get beat down?

Iverson at one time bring team to Final with him be the only score option and won one game from Shaq Kobe Laker, who only loss that game in that year's playoff. During his peak, he played over 40 min avg every season,

We have change a lot in the way we see players, in few years, maybe we will see high eff player that just because they always only shoot when the opportunity is at best as pure role player, who knows. A lot of HOF players may not get draft if you based on today's standard.

AI did able to sell ticket since his first year. Isaiah should be able to be the main attraction after this year, but will be very hard to get into top layer of the league at least few years.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#524 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri May 5, 2017 1:32 pm

Winter wrote:Shouldn't you wait till this year playoff ends to do that comparison? What if he get locked in Cav series and eff get beat down?

Iverson at one time bring team to Final with him be the only score option and won one game from Shaq Kobe Laker, who only loss that game in that year's playoff. During his peak, he played over 40 min avg every season,

We have change a lot in the way we see players, in few years, maybe we will see high eff player that just because they always only shoot when the opportunity is at best as pure role player, who knows. A lot of HOF players may not get draft if you based on today's standard.

AI did able to sell ticket since his first year. Isaiah should be able to be the main attraction after this year, but will be very hard to get into top layer of the league at least few years.


The playoff argument would probably hurt Iverson given how many awful playoff games he had in 01. I'm comparing regular season here.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#525 » by Winter » Fri May 5, 2017 2:51 pm

Well, from statistic point of view, Isaiah is better this year than Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Wall ... But it means a little except give some argument that he is one of the top layer point guard. He is doing much better in playoff because he showed at more memorable games. So far, his per is 21. AI in 2001 with so many bad game looks like is 22. AI always will be volume score, never be know to be eff. But in Denver, when he became 2nd option, he does have his best RS TS% in 57%. This year RS Isaiah is 62.5% right?
AI also never know to be the pg type of player, so a lot of time, he actually played as sg.

Isaiah works his way and break most so called expert preset ceiling before draft. AI is not known for practice. So that is that.

I feel Westbrook probably is more close comparison to AI. And frankly, he probably more amazing than AI, although speedwise, AI is like thunder from start to finish.

TS% wise, the other Thomas - Isiah is about .516 and Magic Johnson is .610, But that does not make Isaiah Thomas this year better than these two, but you certainly can argue about it, and no matter what you say, I will be very hard to convince otherwise.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#526 » by queridiculo » Fri May 5, 2017 2:56 pm

Can't argue much with the thread starter, only thing I'd say is, how much deadlier would Iverson be driving to the basket with todays rules?

I'd imagine that he would take a ton of trips to the line, but I'd also imagine that teaks would pack the paint daring Iverson to beat them with his jumper.

Thomas jumpshot is lightyears ahead of where Iverson ever was.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#527 » by Bergmaniac » Fri May 5, 2017 3:07 pm

Great jinxing job by the OP. He probably put money on a Wizards blowout in Game 3.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#528 » by Hipster Doofus » Fri May 5, 2017 3:17 pm

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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#529 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri May 5, 2017 4:26 pm

Winter wrote:Well, from statistic point of view, Isaiah is better this year than Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Wall ... But it means a little except give some argument that he is one of the top layer point guard. He is doing much better in playoff because he showed at more memorable games. So far, his per is 21. AI in 2001 with so many bad game looks like is 22. AI always will be volume score, never be know to be eff. But in Denver, when he became 2nd option, he does have his best RS TS% in 57%. This year RS Isaiah is 62.5% right?
AI also never know to be the pg type of player, so a lot of time, he actually played as sg.

Isaiah works his way and break most so called expert preset ceiling before draft. AI is not known for practice. So that is that.

I feel Westbrook probably is more close comparison to AI. And frankly, he probably more amazing than AI, although speedwise, AI is like thunder from start to finish.

TS% wise, the other Thomas - Isiah is about .516 and Magic Johnson is .610, But that does not make Isaiah Thomas this year better than these two, but you certainly can argue about it, and no matter what you say, I will be very hard to convince otherwise.


I wouldn't go that far to say he's better statistically than Curry/Westbrook/Harden. They even have metrics that stack up favorably. Wall on the other hand I'm a huge fan of but his metrics are worse for a reason. He's a better all around player in terms of being well rounded, but he's significantly less efficient and has a streaky shot. I'd take Wall though because of his playmaking (elite), defense (above average at times), hustle on the glass and size to play SG here and there. Not to say Wall had a statistically better season, he didn't. I'm more saying there is a difference between better season statistically and all around talent etc.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#530 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri May 5, 2017 4:27 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:Great jinxing job by the OP. He probably put money on a Wizards blowout in Game 3.


I guess IT has to sweep the playoffs now for my thread about the regular season to be valid.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#531 » by chefo » Fri May 5, 2017 5:08 pm

I think the biggest difference is that Isiah would not have been able to stay on the floor back in the day. Today, NBA offenses are all about motion, ball movement, etc. Back in the day, they were not.

Most teams moved the ball to isolate the weakest defender on the opposite team and post them up all game long until the other team committed to double-teaming all the time or took the weak link out. If that worst defender also happened to be the best offensive player, they would just nail him on high and down screens all game long until they tired him out.

Just look at Boston / Chi series where Rondo went at IT as an old-school strategy and what happened when the D-leaguers behind him could not. The first two games, the Celtics could not stop the Bulls to save their lives because Rondo was at the top of the key, with his back towards IT directing traffic without any opposition. In the next games where the Bulls' pgs could not even hope to do something of that nature, the Celts just played extremely aggressive, psychical (very old school) defense on Butler and the Bulls offense grind to a halt.

That's a little preview of how IT would have been treated 20 years ago.

The Post-up and mid-range game is now a lost skill for PGs, mostly because they don't need them any more with the rule changes, but back then the elite PGs like Penny, Billups, Brandon, Jackson, Cassell, etc. would post up all the time and a 5'8 kid just wouldn't be able to cut it defensively, especially in the playoffs.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#532 » by joeyAdaMan » Fri May 5, 2017 8:20 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
joeyAdaMan wrote:
skones wrote:
But it wasn't "by design." That's the point. You say they want to add better talent, but the fact of the matter is, Iverson won too many games for them to have the assets to nab said talent. Surrounding him with defensive guys wasn't necessarily by design so much as it was the best alternative. Those rosters were a product of circumstance. Very few players were leaving their current ball clubs to form super teams in those days.

His 01 cast was deplorable. You can't simply sweep that under the rug for the sake of your argument. His offensive support was Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, Theo Ratliff, Tyrone Hill, and Dikembe Mutumbo. That's laughable.


my man...a Bucks fan too...people really forget just how AWFUL that 76ers team was offensively....good defenders and rebounders but no spectacular athletes...Mckie was the only shooter and he wasn't special at all...and AI was literally the only guy on the roster who could create....Mutombo was the only guy that wouldn't be replaced...the rest of that roster was very upgradable and far inferior to the team IT is playing on now....this Celtics team may be a team of 6th men/role player types outside of IT....but it's still far better than anything AI got to play with in his prime...


As others have already pointed out, who had a better supporting cast in the east? Bucks are only arguable one. Magic, Raptors, Pacers had far worse depth and supporting cast. Hell they had the DPOY and 6th man of the Year on that team. It's all relative to the competition. Bucks were more top heavy but the Sixers had literally 10+ guys with above average metrics that year.


I'm not sure how the East being weak as a whole that year has anything to do with how poor that 76ers cast was offensively? Also doesn't address how much better IT's cast is this year. Which it is. It's infinitely better and more versatile. Nobody touched the ball in that offense outside of AI because literally nobody else outside of McKie could even hit anything but a layup. A wide open layup at that. If you want to pick on AI for his shot selection and efficiency, fine. He was a flawed player and anybody who watched him play knows that. But, for the love of God, lets start acknowledging the fact that he had no firepower on that team throughout his prime. He was 30 by the time he had another viable scorer on his team. People pick apart Lebron's cast in Cleveland for his first 7 seasons and understandably so. But, at least he had rebounders, defenders, AND shooter's surrounding him.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#533 » by Braggins » Fri May 5, 2017 8:27 pm

10DayContract wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:Allen Iverson averaging 40 points In today's NBA, now I've heard everything

People do realize that rose,Westbrook and Wall are just as fast as Iverson while significantly stronger and they don't average anything close to that.

Lebron James, Stephen curry, Wade, Durant - those guys barely have had 30 point seasons but Iverson is going to destroy everyone


Iverson was not the best player of his era or even close, why on earth would he be averaging 40 points today?


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Westbrook averages a f*cking triple double though.

Guards are putting up the best numbers in history right now. This topic shouldn't just be about Iverson, but about lots of other guards from 10-20 years ago. How can 2 guys (Harden and Westbrook) both average around 30pts and 10ast in the same year? Are they both better than Jordan and Magic?

Thomas is a great player, but if you put him in 2001, and Iverson in 2017, who would have the better numbers then?

Iverson in this era would be sort of like a smaller Westbrook who got way fewer rebounds, but significantly more steals. I also think Iverson's defense would be more useful in this era. He had great instincts and was pesky as hell when locked in. There are tons of good small guards dominating team offenses right now and he would have a pretty massive athletic and motor advantage on all the small guards. His only athletic rivals at PG are Westbrook and Wall, who imo have slightly worse overall movement/speed/agility/leaping, but better size/strength/explosion. He would struggle defensively against the bigger PGs (but hed still be unarguable himself) and if he was forced into a similar extreme scoring role as he was in his later Philly years, or if he just developed bad defensive effort anyways, then his defense still might not be that good overall.

Sort of related, but imagine how exciting a showdown between prime Iverson and prime Curry would be to watch...
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#534 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri May 5, 2017 8:54 pm

joeyAdaMan wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
joeyAdaMan wrote:
my man...a Bucks fan too...people really forget just how AWFUL that 76ers team was offensively....good defenders and rebounders but no spectacular athletes...Mckie was the only shooter and he wasn't special at all...and AI was literally the only guy on the roster who could create....Mutombo was the only guy that wouldn't be replaced...the rest of that roster was very upgradable and far inferior to the team IT is playing on now....this Celtics team may be a team of 6th men/role player types outside of IT....but it's still far better than anything AI got to play with in his prime...


As others have already pointed out, who had a better supporting cast in the east? Bucks are only arguable one. Magic, Raptors, Pacers had far worse depth and supporting cast. Hell they had the DPOY and 6th man of the Year on that team. It's all relative to the competition. Bucks were more top heavy but the Sixers had literally 10+ guys with above average metrics that year.


I'm not sure how the East being weak as a whole that year has anything to do with how poor that 76ers cast was offensively? Also doesn't address how much better IT's cast is this year. Which it is. It's infinitely better and more versatile. Nobody touched the ball in that offense outside of AI because literally nobody else outside of McKie could even hit anything but a layup. A wide open layup at that. If you want to pick on AI for his shot selection and efficiency, fine. He was a flawed player and anybody who watched him play knows that. But, for the love of God, lets start acknowledging the fact that he had no firepower on that team throughout his prime. He was 30 by the time he had another viable scorer on his team. People pick apart Lebron's cast in Cleveland for his first 7 seasons and understandably so. But, at least he had rebounders, defenders, AND shooter's surrounding him.


Here's the thing. If you want to say only offensively they were limited, sure. But that does a huge discredit to the great defense, hustle and utility of that supporting cast. What you and others probably don't realize is that there is a REASON they didn't build an offensive minded supporting cast. You had a guy playing 40+ mpg and regularly taking 30-40 shots. There aren't a lot of shots left for other scorers to come in and score 20 ppg. So the idea that the team was "bad" or "weak" because they didn't have another high volume scorer and did it by committee is flawed.

As for Isaiah having a lot more offensive power, let's example that.

Sixers had 4 double digit scorers, Celtics have 5. One 20+ ppg scorer on each team (Themselves). The problem here is IT only attempts 19.5 shots, Iverson attempts 25.5. Iverson's usage was 36% to IT's 34%. 32% assist percentage for IT, 23% for Iverson. Iverson had more time on the ball, passed less of the time he had the ball, attempted literally 6 more shots per game. That may not sound like a lot, but it is when you consider that's about as much as the next 3 players combined (McKie, Ratliff, Snow). So the assumption that Iverson was negatively affected by not having more scorers is something I really question when I start digging a bit deeper. Many great writers have written about how volume scorers work and a couple have mentioned the Sixers being built perfectly around Iverson in terms of how well they compliment him.

If you think that other big time scorers would of helped Iverson, I'm not sure you know what's going on here. We know Iverson wasn't going to take a step back, as we saw later in his career even.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#535 » by OkcSinceSGA » Fri May 5, 2017 8:58 pm

Why did every team Iverson leave dramatically improve? The Sixers bounced back under the emergence of Iggy and made playoffs two straight years. The Nuggets went to the WCF the year after he left. The Pistons lost 20 more games than the year before.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#536 » by joeyAdaMan » Fri May 5, 2017 9:00 pm

raptor jesus wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Mumbles wrote:
No i'm saying screw the people who feel like out-smarting themselves to the point of absurdity.


How is it absurd? Take the names out of it

Player A
31.1 ppg (on 25.5 FGA), 4.6 ast, 3.8 rbs, 3.3 TOs on 42/32/81 shooting numbers
24 PER, 51 TS%, 23 AST%, 35.9 USG%, 11.8 WS, .190 WS/48, 4.8 BPM, 5.1 VORP
Lead team to the #1 seed in his conference

Player B
28.9 ppg (on 19.4 FGA), 5.9 ast, 2.7 rbs, 2.8 TOs on 46/37/90 shooting numbers
26 PER, 62 TS%, 32 AST%, 34.0 USG%, 12.6 WS, .235 WS/48, 5.5 BPM, 4.8 VORP
Lead team to the #1 seed in his conference

Is it really absurd to compare these seasons?


Not absurd, but it's apples to oranges imo considering how different the game has become, and is officiated. AI in a smaller league with more space would be a sight to see.



this as well. This comparison is intellectually dishonest. The NBA now is far different than it was even 10 years ago let alone 15. The only way this would be fair is to somehow throw 25 year old AI in this league or 16-17 IT in the 01' league. I'm not even going to poo poo IT. He's awesome and I was REALLY hoping the 76ers landed him in that 3-way deal with the Suns. But, both players are from different leagues and have different supporting casts at their respective peaks. I love how some posters think Shaq would struggle because of today's style. Yet, not many seem to think AI(a guy who was as athletic as any guard in this league right now, if not more so) would thrive in an era dominated by 5'7'( :o )-6'5" combo guards. :banghead: :crazy: :noway:
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#537 » by joeyAdaMan » Fri May 5, 2017 9:19 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
joeyAdaMan wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
As others have already pointed out, who had a better supporting cast in the east? Bucks are only arguable one. Magic, Raptors, Pacers had far worse depth and supporting cast. Hell they had the DPOY and 6th man of the Year on that team. It's all relative to the competition. Bucks were more top heavy but the Sixers had literally 10+ guys with above average metrics that year.


I'm not sure how the East being weak as a whole that year has anything to do with how poor that 76ers cast was offensively? Also doesn't address how much better IT's cast is this year. Which it is. It's infinitely better and more versatile. Nobody touched the ball in that offense outside of AI because literally nobody else outside of McKie could even hit anything but a layup. A wide open layup at that. If you want to pick on AI for his shot selection and efficiency, fine. He was a flawed player and anybody who watched him play knows that. But, for the love of God, lets start acknowledging the fact that he had no firepower on that team throughout his prime. He was 30 by the time he had another viable scorer on his team. People pick apart Lebron's cast in Cleveland for his first 7 seasons and understandably so. But, at least he had rebounders, defenders, AND shooter's surrounding him.


Here's the thing. If you want to say only offensively they were limited, sure. But that does a huge discredit to the great defense, hustle and utility of that supporting cast. What you and others probably don't realize is that there is a REASON they didn't build an offensive minded supporting cast. You had a guy playing 40+ mpg and regularly taking 30-40 shots. There aren't a lot of shots left for other scorers to come in and score 20 ppg. So the idea that the team was "bad" or "weak" because they didn't have another high volume scorer and did it by committee is flawed.

As for Isaiah having a lot more offensive power, let's example that.

Sixers had 4 double digit scorers, Celtics have 5. One 20+ ppg scorer on each team (Themselves). The problem here is IT only attempts 19.5 shots, Iverson attempts 25.5. Iverson's usage was 36% to IT's 34%. 32% assist percentage for IT, 23% for Iverson. Iverson had more time on the ball, passed less of the time he had the ball, attempted literally 6 more shots per game. That may not sound like a lot, but it is when you consider that's about as much as the next 3 players combined (McKie, Ratliff, Snow). So the assumption that Iverson was negatively affected by not having more scorers is something I really question when I start digging a bit deeper. Many great writers have written about how volume scorers work and a couple have mentioned the Sixers being built perfectly around Iverson in terms of how well they compliment him.

If you think that other big time scorers would of helped Iverson, I'm not sure you know what's going on here. We know Iverson wasn't going to take a step back, as we saw later in his career even.


lmao..o wow....telling me about that team...as if i didn't watch EVERY game that season....you're telling me the 76ers ACTIVELY decided to put NO scoring around AI? No, thats not what happened. What happened with the 6ers is what happened with every 6ers team from Barkley onwards. They were inept at building a complete team around their star. They drafted Larry friggen Hughes over Paul Pierce FFS. Hell, it's a good thing they had the FIRST pick in 96', because i promise you they would've blown the pick if AI wasn't such an obvious choice. As far as AI not wanting to share the ball? How do we know? He never had anyone to share it with. I could see if he was paired with Pierce or another top scorer and it didn't work out. But, that's not what happened. Outside of the terrible fit that was Jerry Stackhouse, he played with NO viable scoring options from ages 21-30. How is this his fault? How many other stars had similar circumstances but a far higher TS%? Also, take a look at his shooting percentages after he arrived in Denver, you know, when he finally had another scorer to take defensive pressure off of him. Who's to say his TS% doesn't go up 3-5 points if he actually has other scorers around him in his 20's?
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#538 » by joeyAdaMan » Fri May 5, 2017 9:23 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:Why did every team Iverson leave dramatically improve? The Sixers bounced back under the emergence of Iggy and made playoffs two straight years. The Nuggets went to the WCF the year after he left. The Pistons lost 20 more games than the year before.


maybe because Iggy is a good two-way player who can score a little and run the offense as well? you're telling me that wouldn't of been the perfect guy to put next to AI when he was in his PRIME? The Nuggets added a finals MVP in Chauncey Billups who was a MUCH better fit next to a scorer like Melo. And, that Nuggets team as a whole was really talented. And, the Pistons just got old. Which is why they traded Billups to begin with. AI would put asses in the seats whilst they re-build. You can't be serious here? :lol:
Volcano wrote:Kobe must the best at everything. He's faster than Westbrook and stronger than Dwight. He's taller than Yao Ming and shorter than Earl Boykins. Nothing you say is going to change their minds.
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#539 » by Dnt hate » Sat May 6, 2017 1:55 am

Imagine Iverson playing with klay, Durant, green, or pippen, Rodman and co, or Shaq or LeBron and bosh he'd have multiple rings and be known as one of the best ever and nobody would have talked about his "advanced stats" and low ts% if they even even still be low
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Re: 2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson. 

Post#540 » by KuruptedCav » Sat May 6, 2017 2:24 am

Iverson was a MVP, 7x all NBA, 4x scoring leader, 3x steals leader, http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/allen_iverson_vs_isaiah_thomas.htm


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