The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

Post #521 » by **Duke4life831** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:03 am

KobeBryant24 wrote:Tatum really fell off

It's called a rookie wall. The majority of rookies hit it.

LakersSoul · Post #522 » by **LakersSoul** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:23 am

New rankings in the ROY:

1. Mitchell
1. Simmons
3. Kuzma
4. Lauri
5. Tatum
6. DSJ
6. Lonzo

To me Mitchell and Simmons are neck and neck for the ROY title.

Next tier consists of Kuzma, Lauri and Tatum. Kuzma has surpassed both Lauri and Tatum as all 3 have hit the rookie wall but Kuzma has rebounded the best. Tatum is falling and he could join the third tier with DSJ and Lonzo if he doesnt wake up soon.

Overall, what a fun group of talented rookies to follow this year. There will be some All-Stars in the 2017 draft that are not listed above too. You still cannot count out Fultz, Fox, Isaac, Collins (Z and J), Adebayo, OG or even Bell.

HeartBreakKid · Post #523 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:06 am

Tatum hit the rookie wall later than the other dudes, so a rebound will come (hopefully).

I'd say Donovan is the ROTY so far with Simmons as a close 2nd.

michaelm · Post #524 » by **michaelm** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:32 am

Not if the Sixers continue their post Christmas winning percentage with Simmons integral to the wins.

Hedda Gambler · Post #525 » by **Hedda Gambler** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:05 am

Even though I`m a Jazz-fan, Simmons has to me been the best rookie so far this season. I don`t know if I`d trade Mitchell for Simmons straight up though as his lack of shooting would be a major problem playing with Gobert.

As for the ROTY-award, this is decided by sportswriters and broadcasters voting for who they believe are the three best rookies each season. Their votes will be influenced by which player they believe has made most damage to the team they work for/write about. When a team is up against the Jazz, it is Donovan who is the man. When a team plays Phily, Embiid is the player that gets most attention. I would not be surprised to see a lot of writers & casters vote for Donovan Mitchell because they perceive him as a bigger threat to their own teams than Simmons. This obviously do not say anything about who the better player is, but it is how the ROTY-award is made up.

Tabasco · Post #526 » by **Tabasco** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:10 am

PLO wrote:
michaelm wrote:
PLO wrote:
Only technically.

Yes, he qualified to be regarded as never having played an NBA game by never playing an NBA game.

A technical distinction lost on many realgm posters

He had an entire year of experience with NBA level coaching, trainers, nutritionists, medical professionals, specialists, etc. Not to mention seeing the game firsthand, experiencing the NBA lifestyle, and learning from and associating with established NBA players. This is an advantage that none of the other rookies in this discussion were able to benefit from. I don't think it's too outrageous that many people think the term "rookie" deserves an asterisk when applied to him.

michaelm · Post #527 » by **michaelm** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:14 am

Tabasco wrote:
PLO wrote:
michaelm wrote:Yes, he qualified to be regarded as never having played an NBA game by never playing an NBA game.

A technical distinction lost on many realgm posters

He had an entire year of experience with NBA level coaching, trainers, nutritionists, medical professionals, specialists, etc. Not to mention seeing the game firsthand, experiencing the NBA lifestyle, and learning from and associating with established NBA players. This is an advantage that none of the other rookies in this discussion were able to benefit from. I don't think it's too outrageous that many people think the term "rookie" deserves an asterisk when applied to him.

It may well have advantaged him. Playing basketball for an extra year at college might have advantaged him as well though (perhaps not at LSU with the same coach) and I don’t believe he fractured his foot deliberately, although he perhaps could have played towards the end of last season.

My point was that once you have criteria of relative worthiness tacked on top of the essential criterion which is not having played an nba game it gets very complicated, if not totally ridiculous.

LordCovington33 · Post #528 » by **LordCovington33** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:52 am

michaelm wrote:
Tabasco wrote:
PLO wrote:
A technical distinction lost on many realgm posters

He had an entire year of experience with NBA level coaching, trainers, nutritionists, medical professionals, specialists, etc. Not to mention seeing the game firsthand, experiencing the NBA lifestyle, and learning from and associating with established NBA players. This is an advantage that none of the other rookies in this discussion were able to benefit from. I don't think it's too outrageous that many people think the term "rookie" deserves an asterisk when applied to him.

It may well have advantaged him. Playing basketball for an extra year at college might have advantaged him as well though (perhaps not at LSU with the same coach) and I don’t believe he fractured his foot deliberately, although he perhaps could have played towards the end of last season.

My point was that once you have criteria of relative worthiness tacked on top of the essential criterion which is not having played an nba game it gets very complicated, if not totally ridiculous.

It didn't help Noel much. It could even be argued that he got worse.

LakersSoul · Post #529 » by **LakersSoul** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:37 am

Tabasco wrote:
PLO wrote:
michaelm wrote:Yes, he qualified to be regarded as never having played an NBA game by never playing an NBA game.

A technical distinction lost on many realgm posters

He had an entire year of experience with NBA level coaching, trainers, nutritionists, medical professionals, specialists, etc. Not to mention seeing the game firsthand, experiencing the NBA lifestyle, and learning from and associating with established NBA players. This is an advantage that none of the other rookies in this discussion were able to benefit from. I don't think it's too outrageous that many people think the term "rookie" deserves an asterisk when applied to him.

Too bad for Mitchell if Simmons wins the ROY. Simmons is a rookie because he didnt play last year. No arguing this fact.

Simmons is NOT a 2017 drafted player so he is under one year less salary control from the 76ers (a huge deal in the NBA) than this year's draft but he qualifies for ROY this year. There is the real financial value for an organization although announcing one of your players as ROY sure would be satisfying in terms of marketing. Title is a title but the contract means money and salary flexibility for the organization which is their lifeblood.

If you care about awards, then Mitchell has to outperform rookie Simmons for that title, plain and simple.

draftnightsuit · Post #530 » by **draftnightsuit** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:03 pm

I’m surprised John Collins doesn’t get consistently talked about. Crazy thing is that he’d probably be front runner for ROY last year but this year he can’t crack the top 5. I’d have him at #7 on my list.

1. Simmons
2. Mitchell
3. Kuzma
4. Tatum
5. Markannen
6. Lonzo
7. Colllins

Insanely deep class.

WalterBenjamin · Post #531 » by **WalterBenjamin** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:13 pm

Is it time to re evaluate Tatums potential? I just don't see in him the scoring potential some think he has. Not a good enough passer to have a clear cut way to become a offensive initiator.

PLO · Post #532 » by **PLO** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:30 pm

WalterBenjamin wrote:Is it time to re evaluate Tatums potential? I just don't see in him the scoring potential some think he has. Not a good enough passer to have a clear cut way to become a offensive initiator.

I've been involved with arguments since before the draft about Tatum, obviously after it many of the posters I was arguing with were Celtics fans. I think his offensive initiator potential is pretty limited not just by his passing but by his physical limitations, and just to be clear I'm a huge fan of what he's accomplished this year. For a 19 year old he's been fantastic overall, but if you're asking him to be "the guy" or even "the next guy" i think you'll find him wanting through his career.

Having said that we're talking about a guy who would be hands down ROTY in a lot of years and is 19 years of age and is super-advanced in a lot of areas. I just think the path to him being a superstar is a very narrow one and he's more likely to end up as an excellent complimentary piece. Having said that the Celtics now know they have a piece in Tatum and can build their roster accordingly, like the Jazz can with Mitchell, there's not many other teams can say that about a player they picked in a draft just gone.

GrandTheftRondo · Post #533 » by **GrandTheftRondo** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:14 pm

WalterBenjamin wrote:Is it time to re evaluate Tatums potential? I just don't see in him the scoring potential some think he has. Not a good enough passer to have a clear cut way to become a offensive initiator.

He dislocated his finger about a month or so ago. He has shot much worse since and now seems far more hesistant to take open shots he’s getting.

Teams are now aware of this and are able to make him hesistant when he gets the ball. Then when he drives he’s too obvious at times with what he’s doing.

A finger injury to me seems like a pretty big deal for a rookie to deal with. He isn’t Kobe in his mid 30s used to having bad fingers.

Hilarious that after a slump from a rookie after a ridiculously efficient start that people like you now want to come out and start talking down his potential again.

The Celtics offence as a whole is a mess right now. Tatum isn’t a gifted passer but the spacing on this team can be pretty terrible at times, I’m not surprised that a 19 year old known for his scoring is struggling to accumulate assists.

I don’t get how people can’t see the potential. 6’9 dude with length (maybe even taller than that), with long strides, a bag of tricks and decent atheticism. Plus he’s already proven he can hit the three. He literally looks perfect for the modern NBA.

BarneyGumble · Post #534 » by **BarneyGumble** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:29 pm

The kicker for me is that Mitchell is doing what he is doing without the benefit of an entire year spent with professional coaches, trainers, and teammates. (Although he did go to Louisville lol). Seriously though, it has to be Mitchell. Last year matters for Simmons even though he didn’t play.

eminence · Post #535 » by **eminence** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:37 pm

Really exciting season as far as rookies go. Just so deep overall. Tough to compare roles for players so young. Ball > Kuzma for Lakers rooks imo, maybe as high as #4 overall (Simmons/Mitchell/Tatum). Additional talent in (Lauri/DSJ/Frank) and out (Collins/OG/Bell) of the lottery. Still some guys to come back from injuries too (Fultz/Isaac). Should go down as one for the ages, just needs one or two of those guys to really go on to absolute superstardom.

Scatocephalus · Post #536 » by **Scatocephalus** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:29 pm

stitches wrote:

Watch on YouTube

That was one of the most impressive rebounds I have ever seen. 1:58

GameBredAPBT · Post #537 » by **GameBredAPBT** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:47 pm

I'd wager the Celtics & Lakers would draft Markkanen over their picks in a redraft. I'd wager every team would sans Utah, obviously.

I also fail to see how Markk has hit a rookie wall? He had that one ghost game vs Phi but other than that, hes been scoring in the paint & his rebounding has been great, and his blocks have gone up.

3toheadmelo · Post #538 » by **3toheadmelo** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:07 pm

lol at people giving up on tatum when he hit the rookie wall... :lol:

also here's tatum just 4 days ago

Watch on YouTube

LakersSoul · Post #539 » by **LakersSoul** » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:36 pm

Josh Jax had 2 good games recently but an UGLY 0-13 day today. More fouls (3) than points (2) today. OUCH!

deflated · Post #540 » by **deflated** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:12 am

The Simmons stat that blows me away is his clear lead over the entire league in touches per game.

The old story about how PGs need time to get used to the NBA game is run out regularly when looking at rookie guards. Simmons has stepped in for the Sixers and they are over .500, looking good for the playoffs and have been the hottest team in the east in January; all that while he's got the ball in his hands a dozen more times than Harden per game. The Sixers game is based on Simmons having the ball as many times as possible and it's working well, which is amazing.

I really wonder if people don't realize how unusual the combination of skills Simmons is displaying are for a rookie (or any player, really). ROTY or not he's exceptional.

Who wins? (May select 2 options.)