China cancels NBA stuff / Silver issues statement (pg1) /Ongoing discussion...

[Drygon]

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[sikma42]

Why do you think it would hurt China more?

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[MotownMadness]

Why do you think it would hurt China more?

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What are they gaining?

[sikma42]

Regardless, its not a violation of freedom of speech. There are actual violations of freedom of speech being pushed through Congree by foreign entities...

$$$ talks.

Or maybe they interpret it differently. What happened does not violate 1st Amendment freedom of speech protections in this Country. That view is totally reasonable from their viewpoint. And if they want to use their capital to force an action...so be it. That's business.

This quote from CCTV (Chinese State Broadcaster) clearly identifies why there is such an issue here. They do not understand what freedom of speech is or what it entails.

I want to see players stick up for Morey and refuse to play in any game there.

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It's not business because theyre a government. It's not individuals punishing a corportation for diverting from their views, it's an authoritative government flexing their muscles to silence critiques of them. Nobody should be cool with that

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[Promezclan]

This whole thing is stupid but simple.

China's sensitive spot: "Unification of the motherland" or "One China One Country".

When HK protesters went on protesting, some were saying "Fight for freedom of speech", which was ABSOLUTELY fine and allowed. (That's how they were allowed to go on to the street in the first place to voice their "freedom of speech".) But some of the protesters who turned to be rioters later said "Free HK from China", then this became tricky because it got interpreted as demanding "independence".

And when you talked about "independence", that's a big NO NO to China because you are invading China's sensitive spot.

Imagine this, if Yao Ming made a dumb comment on USA's sensitive spot: "racism". Sure he had his freedom of speech, but he will PAY for that stupid comment.

What people don't understand is there is a huge misunderstanding between "Freedom of Speech" vs "Free HK". If you talk about the former, EVERYONE in China will be cool about it, not going to cause a big backlash like this. But when you talk about "independence", that's war.

Hope that's fair.

American citizen has all the right to say whatever they want to say about a country. But hey that country can also react whatever they want as a consequence and protect their own sensitive spot.

Two way street. Easy as that.

Obviously. 100% expected China would throw a hissy fit, and good on them for living their true self. Only thing WE are saying is that the NBA had better not give in.

[Frank Dux]

China is officially the softest country ever.

[Jim Naismith]

China is officially the softest country ever.

NBA banned Donald Sterling for a private conversation.

[Curmudgeon]

Simple solution: the NBA announces that any player in the CBA can honor his current contract, but any player signing a new contract or an extension is banned for life from playing in the NBA. Then let the Chinese try to recruit talent from the U.S. or Europe.

[ropjhk]

That's the Chinese government. Quell all dissent quickly and harshly.

And who are we to say whether that's wrong for their society? When judged by Western standards of morality one can find plenty of wrong with Chinese authoritarianism. But when judged through the lense of traditional Chinese ethics and moralities one can determine that Chinese authoritarianism is of a higher moral standard than Western democracy.

It's hard to argue with the results. China has lifted about a billion people out of poverty, and it's due to a lot more than just the US buying cheap stuff from China. The Chinese have a greater sense of collectivism that gives them a higher tolerance for authoritarianism. That higher tolerance for authoritarianism has led to a more efficient implementation of capitalism. The Chinese are also more family and generational oriented than Americans. That general philosophy makes them more tolerant to the concept of self sacrifice for future generations.

Here in the West we value the individual and individual rights at the expense of the collective. In China they value the collective at the expense of the individual. I pass no judgement on either society and urge my fellow Westerners to do the same because the history of interventionism is far worse (IMO and it's a whole other discussion) than any current issues that exist with China.

China does not value the collective anymore than any other Eastern country - yet their practices are far more authoritarian than any East Asian nation - with the only exception being North Korea, which isn't saying much.

What they're doing to uyghurs and tibetans is not a "cultural" thing. Unfair business practices and mass censorship are not really cultural things. Undemocratic elections are not a cultural thing.

I don't even know what "Traditional Chinese" means - China rid most of all their traditions in favor of communism (now capitalism) decades ago. Most Chinese customs today are incredibly modern, including their lingua franca.

What they're doing to Uyghurs and Tibetans is a "cultural" thing, but in a bad way. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not here to defend China's actions. China is trying to forcibly assimilate those citizens who do not abide by their cultural norms to accept the CCP, their authority and their direction on how to live. The Uyghurs are being displaced and discriminated against. I am opposed to any nation (or nation within a nation) from harshly imposing their way of life onto another nation. China is doing to the Uyghurs what America did to its native population years ago. That said, Western nations have to be very careful on this subject because we have a long a bad history of making things worse in these type of situations whenever we get involved.

Unfair business practices are something the Western world continues to practice today. All is considered fair when it comes to capitalism. I think the US should be allowed to continue their trade war with China, but I don't think we should pretend that there is any special meaning in the trade war beyond financial and economic factors.

Undemocratic elections is a relative term. Compared to the ancient Greeks, American democracy would be considered undemocratic. The Chinese political system is indeed a part of their culture. If most people there are happy with it, who are we to say it's wrong?

When I think of traditional Chinese values I think about ancient Chinese philosophy and attitudes and how it continues to apply to even today. Long before the CCP, you had Chinese migrants make their way to the US to mine gold in California working the low yield areas others did not want to mine and succeeding because they simply worked harder than most. Self sacrifice for future generations is a cultural philosophy that is still common amongst Chinese people today.

[sikma42]

CBA would just pay more. They would still get talent.

Also, they would obviously run that by Legal. May be unconstitutional.

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[E-Balla]

That's the Chinese government. Quell all dissent quickly and harshly.

And who are we to say whether that's wrong for their society? When judged by Western standards of morality one can find plenty of wrong with Chinese authoritarianism. But when judged through the lense of traditional Chinese ethics and moralities one can determine that Chinese authoritarianism is of a higher moral standard than Western democracy.

It's hard to argue with the results. China has lifted about a billion people out of poverty, and it's due to a lot more than just the US buying cheap stuff from China. The Chinese have a greater sense of collectivism that gives them a higher tolerance for authoritarianism. That higher tolerance for authoritarianism has led to a more efficient implementation of capitalism. The Chinese are also more family and generational oriented than Americans. That general philosophy makes them more tolerant to the concept of self sacrifice for future generations.

Here in the West we value the individual and individual rights at the expense of the collective. In China they value the collective at the expense of the individual. I pass no judgement on either society and urge my fellow Westerners to do the same because the history of interventionism is far worse (IMO and it's a whole other discussion) than any current issues that exist with China.

China does not value the collective anymore than any other Eastern country - yet their practices are far more authoritarian than any East Asian nation - with the only exception being North Korea, which isn't saying much.

What they're doing to uyghurs and tibetans is not a "cultural" thing. Unfair business practices and mass censorship are not really cultural things. Undemocratic elections are not a cultural thing.

I don't even know what "Traditional Chinese" means - China rid most of all their traditions in favor of communism (now capitalism) decades ago. Most Chinese customs today are incredibly modern, including their lingua franca.

Singapore? I know how bad China seems but Singapore always seemed more authoritarian to me.

[ropjhk]

Simple solution: the NBA announces that any player in the CBA can honor his current contract, but any player signing a new contract or an extension is banned for life from playing in the NBA. Then let the Chinese try to recruit talent from the U.S. or Europe.

You seem to have a misguided interpretation of what the problem is for the NBA. The NBA is not trying to start a cultural war with China. The NBA wants to simply secure its financial arrangement with China.

Can you explain how banning players in the CBA from the NBA for life will help the NBA from losing its Chinese market?

[geminiz]

You need to learn the definition of middle.

Bravo, people like you push the middle to the right because they see through this ridiculous Red Army mentality. This is coming from a gay marriage supporting, anti-gun, obamacare-supporting immigrant.

Your very next sentence confirms that you are.

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If you change your positions on policy issues because somebody on the internet was kind of annoying then your politics were probably extremely superficial to begin with.

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[heatwillbeback]

Or maybe they interpret it differently. What happened does not violate 1st Amendment freedom of speech protections in this Country. That view is totally reasonable from their viewpoint. And if they want to use their capital to force an action...so be it. That's business.

"We're strongly dissatisfied and oppose Adam Silver's claim to support Morey's right to freedom of expression," the statement read. "We believe that any remarks that challenge national sovereignty and social stability are not within the scope of freedom of speech."

This quote from CCTV (Chinese State Broadcaster) clearly identifies why there is such an issue here. They do not understand what freedom of speech is or what it entails.

I want to see players stick up for Morey and refuse to play in any game there.

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I agree that even in the 1st amendment freedom is freedom to say it and not be prosecuted by the government. Not freedom from reactions and repercussions from the statement from private entities.

Here CCTV is saying that comments about national sovereignty and that affect social stability are not included in the freedom of speech. That is wholly inaccurate and shows a misunderstanding of the entire concept.

Which is fine as there are hundreds of years of court cases interpreting the amendment in the US. But the lack of understanding makes the entire thing impossible to resolve. It’s a clash of cultures and concepts of law and speech.

[geminiz]

Their top leader is so butt hurt about Winnie the Pooh, what else would you expect?

China is officially the softest country ever.

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[ropjhk]

And who are we to say whether that's wrong for their society? When judged by Western standards of morality one can find plenty of wrong with Chinese authoritarianism. But when judged through the lense of traditional Chinese ethics and moralities one can determine that Chinese authoritarianism is of a higher moral standard than Western democracy.

It's hard to argue with the results. China has lifted about a billion people out of poverty, and it's due to a lot more than just the US buying cheap stuff from China. The Chinese have a greater sense of collectivism that gives them a higher tolerance for authoritarianism. That higher tolerance for authoritarianism has led to a more efficient implementation of capitalism. The Chinese are also more family and generational oriented than Americans. That general philosophy makes them more tolerant to the concept of self sacrifice for future generations.

Here in the West we value the individual and individual rights at the expense of the collective. In China they value the collective at the expense of the individual. I pass no judgement on either society and urge my fellow Westerners to do the same because the history of interventionism is far worse (IMO and it's a whole other discussion) than any current issues that exist with China.

China does not value the collective anymore than any other Eastern country - yet their practices are far more authoritarian than any East Asian nation - with the only exception being North Korea, which isn't saying much.

What they're doing to uyghurs and tibetans is not a "cultural" thing. Unfair business practices and mass censorship are not really cultural things. Undemocratic elections are not a cultural thing.

I don't even know what "Traditional Chinese" means - China rid most of all their traditions in favor of communism (now capitalism) decades ago. Most Chinese customs today are incredibly modern, including their lingua franca.

Singapore? I know how bad China seems but Singapore always seemed more authoritarian to me.

Singapore is very authoritarian in their own way and it works for them. I dunno if they are more authoritarian than the Chinese, but it can't be denied that their system has succeeded in raising the living standards of those who live there.

[Duffman100]

"Constant humans right issues" can be equally said about the US and half of it's "middle eastern" allies.
Globally, there is a lot of focus is in HK right now... but Saudi, UAE, Israel.... cmon. It's not like HK is a glorified ghetto, like the people of Palestine.

Every country does have human rights issues. But if you follow politics and the news, China is really really bad for it.

Journalists just... disappear... even from HK. Which is a lot about what this protest is about.

How about the Journalist from Saudi or UAE, which cause Canada to lose it's armoured vehicle contract with Saudi (because Trudea decided to say something about it).... I mean it's NO different.

We just turned a blind eye like everyone else did.....

It's all perspective.....

Again, what does this have to do with CHINA? Just because other countries are doing it and we aren't talking about those countries right now, what does that matter?

[sikma42]

Im an attorney and have worked at a Chinese Bank in NY for years (I no longer work there). Dealing with a lot of Chinese influence, id just caution that translations are not always perfect. Additionally, the only relevant part is thag it doesnt violate the constitution. The rest of it may be there explanation to the NBA about why they feel so strongly about this particular issue.

Also, i don't think there is anything to resolve re free speech issue. This isnt some clash about free speech. This is just China setting the terms for doing business there. They are explaning that this is a sovereignty issue to them and they are willing to use their capital to leverage their position.

Or maybe they interpret it differently. What happened does not violate 1st Amendment freedom of speech protections in this Country. That view is totally reasonable from their viewpoint. And if they want to use their capital to force an action...so be it. That's business.

This quote from CCTV (Chinese State Broadcaster) clearly identifies why there is such an issue here. They do not understand what freedom of speech is or what it entails.

I want to see players stick up for Morey and refuse to play in any game there.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

I agree that even in the 1st amendment freedom is freedom to say it and not be prosecuted by the government. Not freedom from reactions and repercussions from the statement from private entities.

Here CCTV is saying that comments about national sovereignty and that affect social stability are not included in the freedom of speech. That is wholly inaccurate and shows a misunderstanding of the entire concept.

Which is fine as there are hundreds of years of court cases interpreting the amendment in the US. But the lack of understanding makes the entire thing impossible to resolve. It’s a clash of cultures and concepts of law and speech.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[E-Balla]

China does not value the collective anymore than any other Eastern country - yet their practices are far more authoritarian than any East Asian nation - with the only exception being North Korea, which isn't saying much.

What they're doing to uyghurs and tibetans is not a "cultural" thing. Unfair business practices and mass censorship are not really cultural things. Undemocratic elections are not a cultural thing.

I don't even know what "Traditional Chinese" means - China rid most of all their traditions in favor of communism (now capitalism) decades ago. Most Chinese customs today are incredibly modern, including their lingua franca.

Singapore? I know how bad China seems but Singapore always seemed more authoritarian to me.

Singapore is very authoritarian in their own way and it works for them. I dunno if they are more authoritarian than the Chinese, but it can't be denied that their system has succeeded in raising the living standards of those who live there.

Same can be said for China for that matter. Authoritarianism can work in terms of raising quality of life for the majority. It's the minority and personal freedoms that suffer.

[ILikeLollies]

Donald Sterling was banned from the NBA for a private conversation in his own home.

Great example. But now you can expect a **** of enraged comments saying that such statements cannot be filed under freedom of speech, while supporting the violation of a country's sovereignty is something that should totally be supported.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. The problem isn't that China disagrees with Morey's statement, it's that they believe he doesn't have the right to make the statement at all.

100% this.

It irritatates me to no end that people think free speech means you can say what you want without ramifications.

Free speech just means you don't have to worry about going to jail for life or being executed.

China does not value the collective anymore than any other Eastern country - yet their practices are far more authoritarian than any East Asian nation - with the only exception being North Korea, which isn't saying much.

What they're doing to uyghurs and tibetans is not a "cultural" thing. Unfair business practices and mass censorship are not really cultural things. Undemocratic elections are not a cultural thing.

I don't even know what "Traditional Chinese" means - China rid most of all their traditions in favor of communism (now capitalism) decades ago. Most Chinese customs today are incredibly modern, including their lingua franca.

Singapore? I know how bad China seems but Singapore always seemed more authoritarian to me.

Singapore is very authoritarian in their own way and it works for them. I dunno if they are more authoritarian than the Chinese, but it can't be denied that their system has succeeded in raising the living standards of those who live there.

LOL, when youve been to as many shipyards in Singapore like I have you'll see that Singapore has a vast underclass, usually Indian or Bangladeshi, that almost borders on servitude.