Is there a reasonable argument that MJ was actually better at basketball than LeBron?

[OhayoKD]

"Pathetic" because I'm not so devoted to being a stan of my favorite player that I actually think him leaving the turd he was handed in the beginning with just a slightly brighter gleam after polishing it isn't some big notch on his belt over Jordan,

You're very good at shifting goalposts:

Not only did the Bulls finish with a better record than the Cavs in MJ's rookie season, they actually made the playoffs so uh...what are we doing

What's pathetic is

A. repeatedly engaging a strawman to deflect critcism("playoff losses have **** all to do with Jordan failing to go >.500 in the regular-season" thrice in his 20's(twice with full-health))
B. Pretending there is a pro-jordan arguement to be made here because "jordan made the playoffs" while winning less games

You said "carryjob of the highest order", which is a silly way to describe what was not even the best carry job from Jordan's draft-class.

Would, "extremely impressive carryjob" be more to your liking? Good lord, semantics. And not only is Hakeem's effort being superior to Jordan's that year debatable (and your point about him having more success the next year was factually wrong on multiple levels but I see you didn't address that lol), but completely irrelevant to the conversation.

The "next year" was not 1989 but 1987 where Hakeem did indeed win more games for the third year in a row having joined a similar team, seen a bigger turnaround in both 85, and having his team decimated by coke.

This bit where you misread what people say and then use your misreading against them is getting old.

[NZB2323]

Using the three years where a 20-something Jordan failed to cross .500 once after joining a 27-win team as an argument against someone who was over.500 after joining a much worse team at 19/20 strikes me as an argument a nuetral party would obviously find to do "more harm than good".

Still waiting for an explanation for how Jordan racking up assists from single coverage in the triangle made him an underrated passer BTW.

Or why point-jordan was still barely >.500 at his peak while point-Lebron went 11-0.

Not only did the Bulls finish with a better record than the Cavs in MJ's rookie season

21-year old Jordan did indeed finish with 3-more wins than 18 year old Lebron after joining a team that was 10 wins better.

If you were being intellectually honest, you'd acknowledge that looks better for Lebron. Instead we get...

they actually made the playoffs so uh...what are we doing?

Unless you want to give Jordan the credit for it taking less wins to make the 1985 playoffs, this is irrelevant.

Lebron joined a worse team, saw a bigger improvement 2 years younger as a rookie, then saw his team jump to > .500 and then 50-wins despite the team losing one of its 3 best players. All of this being younger than Jordan was when he led his team to 38-wins. Jordan matched that in...88 at the age of 24 with the best bbr-production of his career on a team that had significantly improved from when they were winning nearly 30 games trying to tank.

There are 2 reasonable interpretations

1. Wow this is a good look for Lebron!
2. Is it noise though?

"Wow Jordan made the playoffs" is what we call being dishonest.

Punishing MJ for his playoff losses in his early career

He is not being punished for playoff losses. He is being punished for winning less games with seemingly better help. Try reading?

when LeBron missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons is like a bizarre, small-scale inverse of people killing LeBron for losing the finals vs. guys who flamed out earlier in the playoffs. And it especially gets murky when you consider the mid-00s being the absolute nadir of the Eastern conference.

So says the party citing playoff appearances that took 38 and 40 wins.

Jordan averaged 45 PPG in his first playoff series win...a carry job of the highest order

Maybe if you pretend how many shots you take represents how much you're carrying a team. Otherwise no, Jordan's own draft-mate likely had a better carry job that year and then won more the next despite cocaine ruining his team-situation.

Gee wiz, LeBron's always been my personal favorite player ever but the insane overcorrection that's happened ever since KD's jumping to Golden State shut his title window has been nauseating enough to push me further to the other side of the pendulum.

Yes, the insane overcorrection of thinking winning more games is better than winning less games. I find it nauseating how people who have Lebron as their "personal favorite player" need to feign objectivity by arguing biased nonsense like "but he made the playoffs" describing a guy in his 20's repeatedly failing to match the results of a teenager.

People in this thread have also criticized Jordan for not winning a playoff series after joining a 19 win Wizards team at the age of 38 and playing through a knee injury. It’s a part of their “never won a playoff series without Pippen” argument, which is being argued as the most intellectually dishonest argument in this thread.

It’s also kind of hard to finish above .500 when you’re injured and only play 18 games where your team goes .500 with you but then they go 21-43 without you. And then it’s hard to win a playoff series with that team when you average 44, 6, and 6, 58.4 TS% against the 86 Celtics, but the argument is that Jordan didn’t beat the 86 Celtics without Pippen and didn’t win a playoff series without Pippen on the 19 win Wizards team at the age of 38 when he was fighting through injuries, so LeBron is better.

Jordan’s team had a better record his rookie year. I guess if you want to make the argument that Lebron’s team had a better record his 3rd year than Jordan’s team did, you can make that argument, but I don’t know if regular season record arguments would go in Lebron’s favor considering Jordan won 61, 67, 57, 72, 69, and 62 games the years he won it all and Lebron won 46(on pace for 57 wins), 66, 57, and 52(on pace for 60) the years he won it all.

[Blame Rasho]

Lebron is the GOAT.

I don’t even have MJ over Bird. How does the purported GOAT get swept twice?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Random question, how many times has Lebron been swept? I am sure it more than twice.

[cupcakesnake]

Lebron is the GOAT.

I don’t even have MJ over Bird. How does the purported GOAT get swept twice?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Random question, how many times has Lebron been swept? I am sure it more than twice.

3 times.
2007 Finals vs. Spurs
2018 Finals vs. Dubs
2023 WCF vs. Nuggets

[jjgp111292]

"Pathetic" because I'm not so devoted to being a stan of my favorite player that I actually think him leaving the turd he was handed in the beginning with just a slightly brighter gleam after polishing it isn't some big notch on his belt over Jordan,

You're very good at shifting goalposts:

Not only did the Bulls finish with a better record than the Cavs in MJ's rookie season, they actually made the playoffs so uh...what are we doing

What's pathetic is

A. repeatedly engaging a strawman to deflect critcism("playoff losses have **** all to do with Jordan failing to go >.500 in the regular-season" thrice in his 20's(twice with full-health))
B. Pretending there is a pro-jordan arguement to be made here because "jordan made the playoffs" while winning less games

My entire point is that whole debate point of their playoff success in their early years is irrelevant because neither guy had anything to work with and were still developing as players, but for the sake of debate I pointed that actually, LeBron had less success early on anyway so it's all a moot point.

I mean ****, we wanna talk about how MJ never won a playoff game without Scottie Pippen, yet in that first playoff victory Scottie put up a goose egg while playing the second fewest minutes on the team while MJ played how he always does. Trying to credit MJ's success entirely to Pippen fails on even the smallest level.

The "next year" was not 1989 but 1987 where Hakeem did indeed win more games for the third year in a row having joined a similar team, seen a bigger turnaround in both 85, and having his team decimated by coke.

This bit where you misread what people say and then use your misreading against them is getting old.

You brought up Hakeem in response to me talking about MJ's performance in the 1988 playoffs, and then said:

Maybe if you pretend how many shots you take represents how much you're carrying a team. Otherwise no, Jordan's own draft-mate likely had a better carry job that year and then won more the next despite cocaine ruining his team-situation.

Math lesson time:

That year in question is 1988, meaning the next year would be 1989. And in 1989, the Rockets finished 45-37 and lost in the first round, while the Bulls went 47-35 and lost in the conference finals.

Apparently you were just so thirsty to bring up a completely irrelevant topic that you misread what I said and used your misreading against me!

[jjgp111292]

But to have fun, let's talk about MJ vs. Hakeem and the turnaround in their early career:

In 1985, the Rockets added two productive roleplayers to their rotation (John Lucas, Lionel Hollins) AND also had the previous year's Rookie of the Year who just so happened to be the perfect complement to Hakeem's skillset. With Ralph Sampson, that was a team on the upside with or without Hakeem, but obviously he made them even better than that. That organization set out to win once they landed Hakeem, while the Bulls added...Wes Matthews and Caldwell Jones. I'm sure Jones' 3 points per game in 42 games was a big steal.

I mean, we want to talk about rosters falling apart to cocaine, Jordan came IN to a roster that was already destroyed by cocaine. His best teammate was one of NBA's most prolific snowmen!

[NZB2323]

But to have fun, let's talk about MJ vs. Hakeem and the turnaround in their early career:

In 1985, the Rockets added two productive roleplayers to their rotation (John Lucas, Lionel Hollins) AND also had the previous year's Rookie of the Year who just so happened to be the perfect complement to Hakeem's skillset. With Ralph Sampson, that was a team on the upside with or without Hakeem, but obviously he made them even better than that. That organization set out to win once they landed Hakeem, while the Bulls added...Wes Matthews and Caldwell Jones. I'm sure Jones' 3 points per game in 42 games was a big steal.

I mean, we want to talk about rosters falling apart to cocaine, Jordan came IN to a roster that was already destroyed by cocaine. His best teammate was one of NBA's most prolific snowmen!

Hakeem was also incredible. I don’t think Hakeem’s run in 86 diminishes Jordan just like how Wade’s run in 06 doesn’t diminish LeBron.

[jjgp111292]

But to have fun, let's talk about MJ vs. Hakeem and the turnaround in their early career:

In 1985, the Rockets added two productive roleplayers to their rotation (John Lucas, Lionel Hollins) AND also had the previous year's Rookie of the Year who just so happened to be the perfect complement to Hakeem's skillset. With Ralph Sampson, that was a team on the upside with or without Hakeem, but obviously he made them even better than that. That organization set out to win once they landed Hakeem, while the Bulls added...Wes Matthews and Caldwell Jones. I'm sure Jones' 3 points per game in 42 games was a big steal.

I mean, we want to talk about rosters falling apart to cocaine, Jordan came IN to a roster that was already destroyed by cocaine. His best teammate was one of NBA's most prolific snowmen!

Hakeem was also incredible. I don’t think Hakeem’s run in 86 diminishes Jordan just like how Wade’s run in 06 doesn’t diminish LeBron.

Yup, agreed on all fronts (and I'm lowkey disappointed in myself for not bringing up the Wade side of the equation for rhetorical purposes). Let's not pit two bad bitches against each other, as the kids say.

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[JRoy]

I am not a fan of either player.

MJ by a mile.

6-0 in the finals
Never flopped like a bitch
Never played for the superfriends

[LaLover11]

I am not a fan of either player.

MJ by a mile.

6-0 in the finals
Never flopped like a bitch
Never played for the superfriends

Relax

We all know it's LeBron

Strike issued for unrelenting tsunami of trolling, derailing and general nonsense in this and many other posts. -b

[JRoy]

I am not a fan of either player.

MJ by a mile.

6-0 in the finals
Never flopped like a bitch
Never played for the superfriends

Relax

We all know it's LeBron

No we don’t.

And I am not a nut rider for either.

[MacGill]

Era for Era, it's MJ allday, without question.

[SaveTheHens]

Great moments are made when the moment is seized. Forget the stats, who pulled out a win when it all mattered? He has 6 rings in much less time, with no purposeful teaming up with other superstars either. It's like some of you are too obsessed with stats & quantifying things when the quality behind MJ clearly outshines Lebron, so much that even quantifying it he's still shown up when it mattered most, that's whats sports are about, not total points or whatever. Those are little bonuses.

[Rawbo619]

Arguments for LeBron:

Highest box and non-box statistical peak in a much, much more internationally competitive and sophisticated era against superior athletes and teams who actually mathematically understand how to play basketball

Far superior versatility and longevity


"Arguments" for MJ:

Romanticized sociopathy

Scored a lot of points (on worse efficiency even adjusted for era) on impossibly stacked teams against Kurt Rambis and John Stockton with the greatest coach ever while sticking his tongue out and being "feared"


I have no doubt whatsoever that Kawhi could have three-peated twice in MJ's situation.

Jordan had 11 full seasons with the Bulls (1 injured, 1 retired and one partial)

Lead the league in PPG 10/11 seasons
Lead the league in VORP 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in BPM 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in WS48 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in OBMP 9/11 seasons
Lead the league in OWS 8/11 seasons
Lead the league in WS 8/11 seasons
Lead the league in PER 7/11 seasons
Won 6 Rings in 11 seasons

At the same age, LeBron did this over 14 seasons:

Lead the league in PPG 1/14 seasons
Lead the league in VORP 8/14 seasons
Lead the league in BPM 6/14 seasons
Lead the league in WS48 5/14 seasons
Lead the league in OBPM 5/14 seasons
Lead the league in OWS 4/14 seasons
Lead the league in WS 5/14 seasons
Lead the league in PER 6/14 seasons
Won 3-4 Rings in 14 seasons

Even with 3 extra full seasons he could catch Jordan.

Solid troll attempt, but everyone knows that Jordan dominated the league in a way that no player has done since. It's not an insult to be considered #2.

Wow.

That's stupidly dominant.

[Petergrifindor]

Better offense, better defense, more successful.

It's a no contest.

[NO-KG-AI]

Very clearly better. Which is why he hasn’t cost his team series/titles by not being able to score 20 a night.

[One_and_Done]

No. Lebron was indisputably better.

[bledredwine]

Better Offensive Player: Jordan
Better Defensive Player: Jordan
More Clutch Player: Jordan
More Titles: Jordan

But LeBron gets more rebounds and assists playing in an era where both teams score 120 a game lmao.

facts.

[bledredwine]

Twice as many trophies as lebron, didn’t have to team up to do so, 2 more championships and FMVps, one more DPOY, 4 more 1st team defense,
Only four times in history has a player been first team defense, won the scoring title, MVPregular season and finals MVp…. Jordan, Jordan, Jordan and Jordan. He had 7 of the top ten highest playoff series scoring averages of all time Lebron not even 1 and 19 of the 100 top gamescores recorded. He has higher PER, playoff PER, winshares, playoff winshares, VORP per 48, and even box score plus minus. The only thing fooling people is rebounds and assist because lebron plays point forward. We won’t get into his free throw, midrange game, and weaknesses.

And can you imagine the crap Jordan would get if he lost his team a championship by not showing up like 2011, or if Popovich left Jordan open as a strategy in the finals? Or if he teamed up with Hakeem and Reggie?
It’s Jordan and not remotely close, sorry.