NBA MVP Discussion '20-'21, Part 2 (Poll created 21 March '21)

[Sharkboy242]

Right now its Lebron comfortably. If he misses another 20 games though, it might become tight

lolz

[Woodsanity]

Lol Jokic keeps getting overrated.

How in the world is Jokic so much higher than Doncic, for example, when their stats are close 26.3/11/8.6 vs 28.6/8.1/8.8 and their records are fairly close when Doncic is playing with significantly less talent around him?

64.5 TS% vs 59.5 TS%

PER: 31 vs 26.2

BPM: 11.5 vs 7.4

Very substantial difference.

[VDT]

Lol Jokic keeps getting overrated.

How in the world is Jokic so much higher than Doncic, for example, when their stats are close 26.3/11/8.6 vs 28.6/8.1/8.8 and their records are fairly close when Doncic is playing with significantly less talent around him?

Luka was the MVP favourite coming into the season, while Jokic was 30:1, so Luka was definitely not overlooked, but he showed up fat and got off to a slow start which took him out of the contest.

You've mentioned some stats, but failed to mention that Joker kills Luka in fg%, ft%, 3pt%, averages more steals and less turnovers.

Luka is not being overlooked, he just hasn't been as good as Jokic. If he decides to show up in shape next year (like Joker finally did), Luka will win the MVP, but this year it's Joker's to lose.

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

[VDT]

Lol Jokic keeps getting overrated.

How in the world is Jokic so much higher than Doncic, for example, when their stats are close 26.3/11/8.6 vs 28.6/8.1/8.8 and their records are fairly close when Doncic is playing with significantly less talent around him?

Pointing to 3 box score stats equals cherry-picking equals a very cringe comment. Maybe try this comment on some youtube video or on some facebook post, sir, casuals are dying to buy any crap you sell them about their favorite player.

You know that most (all?) stats that people cite in favor of Jokic are box score stats and some of them dont even normalize to the minutes played. Just because people put some arbitrary weights on the box score stats and on the position of the player doesnt make the stat the be all end all stat. Impact stats like rpm for example have jokic at #10. Again not the be all end all stat but it at least tries to measure impact without being simply a fancier box score.

[BelgradeNugget]

Lol Jokic keeps getting overrated.

How in the world is Jokic so much higher than Doncic, for example, when their stats are close 26.3/11/8.6 vs 28.6/8.1/8.8 and their records are fairly close when Doncic is playing with significantly less talent around him?

Pointing to 3 box score stats equals cherry-picking equals a very cringe comment. Maybe try this comment on some youtube video or on some facebook post, sir, casuals are dying to buy any crap you sell them about their favorite player.

You know that most (all?) stats that people cite in favor of Jokic are box score stats and some of them dont even normalize to the minutes played. Just because people put some arbitrary weights on the box score stats and on the position of the player doesnt make the stat the be all end all stat. Impact stats like rpm for example have jokic at #10. Again not the be all end all stat but it at least tries to measure impact without being simply a fancier box score.

The harder you try the worst it gets

[Sgt Major]

Jokic is a better player than Doncic, deal with it

[FinnTheHuman]

Lol Jokic keeps getting overrated.

How in the world is Jokic so much higher than Doncic, for example, when their stats are close 26.3/11/8.6 vs 28.6/8.1/8.8 and their records are fairly close when Doncic is playing with significantly less talent around him?

Pointing to 3 box score stats equals cherry-picking equals a very cringe comment. Maybe try this comment on some youtube video or on some facebook post, sir, casuals are dying to buy any crap you sell them about their favorite player.

You know that most (all?) stats that people cite in favor of Jokic are box score stats and some of them dont even normalize to the minutes played. Just because people put some arbitrary weights on the box score stats and on the position of the player doesnt make the stat the be all end all stat. Impact stats like rpm for example have jokic at #10. Again not the be all end all stat but it at least tries to measure impact without being simply a fancier box score.

“Blablabla let me pretend there are some advanced stats that don’t have Jokic in their top 3 when there’s only one (RPM) blablabla I actually just don’t like Jokic so I’m grasping at straws blabla”

[Kurtz]

Lol Jokic keeps getting overrated.

How in the world is Jokic so much higher than Doncic, for example, when their stats are close 26.3/11/8.6 vs 28.6/8.1/8.8 and their records are fairly close when Doncic is playing with significantly less talent around him?

Luka was the MVP favourite coming into the season, while Jokic was 30:1, so Luka was definitely not overlooked, but he showed up fat and got off to a slow start which took him out of the contest.

You've mentioned some stats, but failed to mention that Joker kills Luka in fg%, ft%, 3pt%, averages more steals and less turnovers.

Luka is not being overlooked, he just hasn't been as good as Jokic. If he decides to show up in shape next year (like Joker finally did), Luka will win the MVP, but this year it's Joker's to lose.

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

Why did you round Joker's 64.5% down to 64% but left Doncic's 59.5% at 59.5%? . 5% swing is pretty huge when we're comparing high-volume #1 options.

As far as talent - yeah, post Gordon trade Denver has the clear edge, but prior to the season Denver and Dallas were projected to be very close in record. Denver downgraded their talent in the offseason - from Grant to Green and from Plumlee to Hertenstein. And both teams dealt with injuries to key players.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Harden is missing too many games now.

I think it probably has to be Jokic by default.

If not hurt I would go:

Embiid
LeBron
Harden

Giannis also has a case.

[Jurassic_Park]

Harden is now officially eliminated from the race. Will miss at least the next 10 days. KD is also back Wednesday.

3 man race now - Jokic/Lillard/Giannis. Small outside shot to Luka if the other 3 choke

[Jurassic_Park]

Harden is missing too many games now.

I think it probably has to be Jokic by default.

If not hurt I would go:

Embiid
LeBron
Harden

Giannis also has a case.

Injuries suck... don't think anything is going to work out for BKN this year. No awards for reg season, and won't win the title either.

[Yuri36]

Luka was the MVP favourite coming into the season, while Jokic was 30:1, so Luka was definitely not overlooked, but he showed up fat and got off to a slow start which took him out of the contest.

You've mentioned some stats, but failed to mention that Joker kills Luka in fg%, ft%, 3pt%, averages more steals and less turnovers.

Luka is not being overlooked, he just hasn't been as good as Jokic. If he decides to show up in shape next year (like Joker finally did), Luka will win the MVP, but this year it's Joker's to lose.

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

Why did you round Joker's 64.5% down to 64% but left Doncic's 59.5% at 59.5%? . 5% swing is pretty huge when we're comparing high-volume #1 options.

As far as talent - yeah, post Gordon trade Denver has the clear edge, but prior to the season Denver and Dallas were projected to be very close in record. Denver downgraded their talent in the offseason - from Grant to Green and from Plumlee to Hertenstein. And both teams dealt with injuries to key players.

Jokic is a center, he is always going to have better shooting efficiency than a guard like Luka
And Luka makes it up by scoring much more pts and having more assists

[yannisk]

Jokic is a center, he is always going to have better shooting efficiency than a guard like Luka
And Luka makes it up by scoring much more pts and having more assists

the difference in assists is 0.2 per game

[Ballerhogger]

Harden is now officially eliminated from the race. Will miss at least the next 10 days. KD is also back Wednesday.

3 man race now - Jokic/Lillard/Giannis. Small outside shot to Luka if the other 3 choke

Jokic has forum grip with Giannis in second

[TOStateofMind]

Gonna be jokic as long as the nugs don’t drop off anytime soon. Harden and giannis has been great but let’s be honest there’s just no chance they get the votes.

[Kurtz]

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

Why did you round Joker's 64.5% down to 64% but left Doncic's 59.5% at 59.5%? . 5% swing is pretty huge when we're comparing high-volume #1 options.

As far as talent - yeah, post Gordon trade Denver has the clear edge, but prior to the season Denver and Dallas were projected to be very close in record. Denver downgraded their talent in the offseason - from Grant to Green and from Plumlee to Hertenstein. And both teams dealt with injuries to key players.

Jokic is a center, he is always going to have better shooting efficiency than a guard like Luka
And Luka makes it up by scoring much more pts and having more assists

The difference in points is small and assists is negligible.

TS% is meant to equalize efficiency between guards and centres by including 3pt and freethrow percentages. But we can break it out into individual % if you'd like:

FG: Luka 49%, Jokic 57%
FT: Luka 73% Joker 86%
3PT: Luka 38% Joker 43%

[VDT]

Luka was the MVP favourite coming into the season, while Jokic was 30:1, so Luka was definitely not overlooked, but he showed up fat and got off to a slow start which took him out of the contest.

You've mentioned some stats, but failed to mention that Joker kills Luka in fg%, ft%, 3pt%, averages more steals and less turnovers.

Luka is not being overlooked, he just hasn't been as good as Jokic. If he decides to show up in shape next year (like Joker finally did), Luka will win the MVP, but this year it's Joker's to lose.

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

Why did you round Joker's 64.5% down to 64% but left Doncic's 59.5% at 59.5%? . 5% swing is pretty huge when we're comparing high-volume #1 options.

As far as talent - yeah, post Gordon trade Denver has the clear edge, but prior to the season Denver and Dallas were projected to be very close in record. Denver downgraded their talent in the offseason - from Grant to Green and from Plumlee to Hertenstein. And both teams dealt with injuries to key players.

Yes, i missed the 0.5% which however is not that big of a difference given that Jokic has a 5% higher efficiency which is pretty big. Who will see how that looks at the end of the year because i expect some regression. However, in terms of talent the Nuggets were ahead even before they got Gordon. Doncic's team is very mediocre other than Porzingis who is overrated and always injured. Nuggets on the other hand were one of the few teams that didnt have their main guys miss a lot of games. Given these i would expect a larger difference in the record.


I am not sure about what pre season projections you are talking about, but Doncic was pretty heavily overrated at that time so the projections might have been influenced by that. Still, the records are pretty close, 3 games difference.

[dygaction]

Lol Jokic keeps getting overrated.

How in the world is Jokic so much higher than Doncic, for example, when their stats are close 26.3/11/8.6 vs 28.6/8.1/8.8 and their records are fairly close when Doncic is playing with significantly less talent around him?

Luka was the MVP favourite coming into the season, while Jokic was 30:1, so Luka was definitely not overlooked, but he showed up fat and got off to a slow start which took him out of the contest.

You've mentioned some stats, but failed to mention that Joker kills Luka in fg%, ft%, 3pt%, averages more steals and less turnovers.

Luka is not being overlooked, he just hasn't been as good as Jokic. If he decides to show up in shape next year (like Joker finally did), Luka will win the MVP, but this year it's Joker's to lose.

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

Jokic is clear the favorite, and Luka is in top 5. There is a chance Luka can get to top 3 if Mavs can keep up the trend.

[Kurtz]

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

Why did you round Joker's 64.5% down to 64% but left Doncic's 59.5% at 59.5%? . 5% swing is pretty huge when we're comparing high-volume #1 options.

As far as talent - yeah, post Gordon trade Denver has the clear edge, but prior to the season Denver and Dallas were projected to be very close in record. Denver downgraded their talent in the offseason - from Grant to Green and from Plumlee to Hertenstein. And both teams dealt with injuries to key players.

Yes, i missed the 0.5% which however is not that big of a difference given that Jokic has a 5% higher efficiency which is pretty big. Who will see how that looks at the end of the year because i expect some regression. However, in terms of talent the Nuggets were ahead even before they got Gordon. Doncic's team is very mediocre other than Porzingis who is overrated and always injured. Nuggets on the other hand were one of the few teams that didnt have their main guys miss a lot of games. Given these i would expect a larger difference in the record.


I am not sure about what pre season projections you are talking about, but Doncic was pretty heavily overrated at that time so the projections might have been influenced by that. Still, the records are pretty close, 3 games difference.

Various sites had them projected at similar records. ESPN had both teams winning 40 games for example.

I think you're over-estimating Denver's roster pre-Gordon. It was quite miserable when you consider that Porter missed 10 games with COVID and was a shadow of his former self for about a month after coming back. Morris, Harris, Millsap were all injured for long stretches. Here are the guys who were getting significant minutes for Denver:

-Campazzo, a 5 foot nothing 30 year old rookie pg who cannot shoot, defend or rebound was regularly playing 25mpg and closing games.
-The corpse of Millsap was regularly starting and playing 25mpg
-PJ Dozier was getting significant minutes. Jamychael Green was closing games. Hartenstein.

Don't kid yourself, it was an ugly roster for a long stretch that would have killed for Richardson, Hardaway or Brunson.

[Yuri36]

Jokic has 64% TS and Doncic has 59.5% TS. Doncic's team is 3 games behind and is playing with less talent.

My point is not that Doncic has a better year, i just wanted to point out the inconsistency of some people here. If you have Jokic as your clear cut MVP, you should have Doncic very close behind him I have neither). And an argument could be made, based on the surrounding talent, that Doncic might be more valuable.

Why did you round Joker's 64.5% down to 64% but left Doncic's 59.5% at 59.5%? . 5% swing is pretty huge when we're comparing high-volume #1 options.

As far as talent - yeah, post Gordon trade Denver has the clear edge, but prior to the season Denver and Dallas were projected to be very close in record. Denver downgraded their talent in the offseason - from Grant to Green and from Plumlee to Hertenstein. And both teams dealt with injuries to key players.

Yes, i missed the 0.5% which however is not that big of a difference given that Jokic has a 5% higher efficiency which is pretty big. Who will see how that looks at the end of the year because i expect some regression. However, in terms of talent the Nuggets were ahead even before they got Gordon. Doncic's team is very mediocre other than Porzingis who is overrated and always injured. Nuggets on the other hand were one of the few teams that didnt have their main guys miss a lot of games. Given these i would expect a larger difference in the record.


I am not sure about what pre season projections you are talking about, but Doncic was pretty heavily overrated at that time so the projections might have been influenced by that. Still, the records are pretty close, 3 games difference.

+10000
People are afraid or don't want to admit that Luka doncic is currently doing one of the biggest carrying job in recent times.