NBA protocols/Covid/Vaccine - Discussion thread

[michaelm]

I know that Israel are revaccinating health workers at 6 months, which means I will get myself revaccinated at that time since my over riding concern is to make my risk of transmitting the virus to patients as low as possible which is a strong concern for most health workers of my acquaintance; this is my personal opinion and attitude, and anecdotal of course, I don't give health advice over the internet. I have been required to be vaccinated against Hepatitis B for decades, and so should I be, and it is a requirement to provide proof of immunity against measles, rubella, varicella etc to work in public hospitals in my part of the world.

There are "nuances' as you are wont to put it in regard to Israel. They didn't really vaccinate as high a proportion of their population as was implied, given they didn't vaccinate children under 16 and have a young population, and hence really only vaccinated 68% of their population, with the delta variant infecting children more easily and spread by them which wasn't overly the case with the original version of the virus; thankfully they still have a low rate of severe illness. Orthodox Jews had a low vaccination rate and have been over represented in the recent/current wave of hospitalisations and deaths. There also now appears to be involvement MJ m of Simpson's paradox, given that if you have a high rate of vaccination sure those hospitalised will include vaccinated patients, but the large majority of vaccinated patients are not hospitalised. The death rate is also much lower than with the initial wave anyway.

In Israel they vacicnate from age 12, not 16, 50% of ages 12-16 are vaccinated, most countries don't vaccinate
https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general?tileName=vaccinatedByAge

The rest of the age groups are 80-90% That is very high vaccination rate, 40% of the whole population have ben vaccinated 3 times, they are having one of the worst waves in the world right now.

Singapore has an astonishingly low death rate, but always have had which has puzzled me; no doubt they do have a good health system. There is some speculation that they will come out of the current wave with strong herd immunity due to the hybrid immunity which has been discussed by others. There are some who have considered their figures rubbery all along because they have tended not to count their migrant worker population.

Why is death rate important? the mandate is to stop transmission from unvaxxed to vaxxed.

I believe vaccines more broadly active against corona viruses in general are likely to come out of all this, and a clinical trial has already commenced in the UK of a vaccine directed against an element of corona viruses less mutable than the spike protein. The current vaccines can also be tweaked against the new variants of concern, which arose from rampant spread of the virus in unvaccinated populations btw.

Also btw the UK tried a herd immunity approach for a few weeks in the initial stages of the pandemic, with disastrous results, and that was with the less infectious and probably less lethal original version of the virus.

Sweden has almost no COVID now, their age adjusted death rate is better than many countries who did lockdown.
Vaccination is totally voluntary there.

Shouldn’t post in the early hours of the morning, we were both way off topic according to the thread preamble I hadn’t read.

Sure management of the pandemic has been inconsistent in many places in the world, with Sweden an exception as it happens which might say something.

You neglected to mention that they have also shown in Israel that re-vaccinating health workers restored protection including against transmission, which as I said is my concern and also said is why I will get re-vaccinated unless things somehow change. They also found no increased side effects from a third Pfizer jab compared with the second jab which I hadn’t previously known.

[Pointgod]

I really enjoy when people who have no idea how long-term prognoses are mapped keep saying "we have no idea what the long term effects are!" as if the mRNA vaccine is going to lay dormant for 9 years then all of a sudden attack the body...

Truth is we absolutely can map out long-term effects based on the short term, because:

- we know how the original virus attacks
- we know the life-cycle of the vaccine in the human body
- we are able to map out problem spots within several months
For, for the side that claims they do so much research, they sure have a hard time covering the basics of virology and biology. I dont see why its so hard to just admit you're scared of needles or you are so indoctrinated politically that nothing is ever going to change your mind instead of pretending there's a reasonable cause behind it.. just get out of the way so the people who honestly have concerns - almost all of which can be addressed right now - can discuss them. Goalpost movers and people who obviously shouldn't be talking are the ones eating up most of the bandwith

Do your research means agree with the biased and intentionally misleading opinions, crack pot theories that I dug up on the sketchiest reaches of the internet. I promise you honey, you aren’t going to find something that tens of thousands of researchers that have dedicated their lives to this missed.

[jwise44]

Cause a vaccine mandate is a normal thing

…it is a normal thing

When has a pandemic vaccine ever been a mandate besides polio or smallpox?

“When has a pandemic vaccine mandate ever been a thing except the other times it’s been a thing?”

And I love the shifted goal posts…first it’s vaccine mandates aren’t normal, then when you realize you’re wrong…it’s pandemic vaccine mandates aren’t normal (except when they have been in the past of course)

[First Step]

Government mandates are not law. What is the consequence for unvaxxed players not complying, and showing up to work? Is it just a fine? Technically, an unvaxxed player could show up for work, and the consequence should be a fine. If they were physically removed by law enforcement for violating a mandate, that would set a very bad precedent. Imagine Kyrie being physically beaten by the police for showing up to do his job.

If I am an unvaxxed player, I am not complying with the order and showing up to play the game. Then if the team tells me I can't play, I am making them pay me for not playing. The NBA does not have a Vaxx mandate.

[Phystic]

Government mandates are not law. What is the consequence for unvaxxed players not complying, and showing up to work? Is it just a fine? Technically, an unvaxxed player could show up for work, and the consequence should be a fine. If they were physically removed by law enforcement for violating a mandate, that would set a very bad precedent. Imagine Kyrie being physically beaten by the police for showing up to do his job.

If I am an unvaxxed player, I am not complying with the order and showing up to play the game. Then if the team tells me I can't play, I am making them pay me for not playing. The NBA does not have a Vaxx mandate.

Except the state does, do you think the NBA supercedes the state in which the team is operating?

Blows my mind that people go along with vaccines throughout childhood and even many get flu shots, but then when this happens it's the end of the world.

Either the players abide by the rules set forth in their state and contracts or they don't get paid. It's not a difficult concept.

The NBA can't force them to get the shot, but they do have the authority to not allow them to play until they do

[First Step]

Government mandates are not law. What is the consequence for unvaxxed players not complying, and showing up to work? Is it just a fine? Technically, an unvaxxed player could show up for work, and the consequence should be a fine. If they were physically removed by law enforcement for violating a mandate, that would set a very bad precedent. Imagine Kyrie being physically beaten by the police for showing up to do his job.

If I am an unvaxxed player, I am not complying with the order and showing up to play the game. Then if the team tells me I can't play, I am making them pay me for not playing. The NBA does not have a Vaxx mandate.

Except the state does, do you think the NBA supercedes the state in which the team is operating?

Blows my mind that people go along with vaccines throughout childhood and even many get flu shots, but then when this happens it's the end of the world.

Either the players abide by the rules set forth in their state and contracts or they don't get paid. It's not a difficult concept.

The NBA can't force them to get the shot, but they do have the authority to not allow them to play until they do

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate? It's usually a ticket from the State which you can fight in court. It's not a criminal offense to violate the mandate, as it's not law.

Therefore, if Kyrie just simply ignores the mandate, the Nets contractually wouldn't have any reason to withhold his salary. If they tell him to go home, then they are the ones who are violating the terms of their contract and would be obligated to pay him. By Kyrie not getting vaxxed and showing up to work, he is only violating a State mandate, and would only be subjected to that penalty.

[michaelm]

Government mandates are not law. What is the consequence for unvaxxed players not complying, and showing up to work? Is it just a fine? Technically, an unvaxxed player could show up for work, and the consequence should be a fine. If they were physically removed by law enforcement for violating a mandate, that would set a very bad precedent. Imagine Kyrie being physically beaten by the police for showing up to do his job.

If I am an unvaxxed player, I am not complying with the order and showing up to play the game. Then if the team tells me I can't play, I am making them pay me for not playing. The NBA does not have a Vaxx mandate.

Except the state does, do you think the NBA supercedes the state in which the team is operating?

Blows my mind that people go along with vaccines throughout childhood and even many get flu shots, but then when this happens it's the end of the world.

Either the players abide by the rules set forth in their state and contracts or they don't get paid. It's not a difficult concept.

The NBA can't force them to get the shot, but they do have the authority to not allow them to play until they do

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate? It's usually a ticket from the State which you can fight in court. It's not a criminal offense to violate the mandate, as it's not law.

Therefore, if Kyrie just simply ignores the mandate, the Nets contractually wouldn't have any reason to withhold his salary. If they tell him to go home, then they are the ones who are violating the terms of their contract and wouldi be obligated to pay him. By Kyrie not getting vaxxed and showing up to work, he is only violating a State mandate, and would only be subjected to that penalty.

Don’t know American law, but I would have thought the question is whether the Nets or the NBA can ignore the mandate.

[Curmudgeon]

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate?

The penalty is that he can't be in the arena. If an unvaxxed player can't be in the arena he can't play, and if he doesn't play, he won't get paid.

The state has every right to impose reasonable restrictions for the public good (Jacobsen v. Massachusetts 197 U.S. 11 1905) and an NBA team could be liable if it failed to comply with those restrictions. For starters, if the team defied the city, the city could pull the occupancy permit for the arena, plus impose fines if it so chooses.

[Ambrose]

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate?

The penalty is that he can't be in the arena. If an unvaxxed player can't be in the arena he can't play, and if he doesn't play, he won't get paid.

The state has every right to impose reasonable restrictions for the public good (Jacobsen v. Massachusetts 197 U.S. 11 1905) and an NBA team could be liable if it failed to comply with those restrictions. For starters, if the team defied the city, the city could pull the occupancy permit for the arena, plus impose fines if it so chooses.

I think his point was IF the only penalty for a mandate is a fine than it'd be worth to show it up anyway. Obviously if someone can't be in the arena and the permit could be threatened it isn't worth it.

[Curmudgeon]

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate?

The penalty is that he can't be in the arena. If an unvaxxed player can't be in the arena he can't play, and if he doesn't play, he won't get paid.

The state has every right to impose reasonable restrictions for the public good (Jacobsen v. Massachusetts 197 U.S. 11 1905) and an NBA team could be liable if it failed to comply with those restrictions. For starters, if the team defied the city, the city could pull the occupancy permit for the arena, plus impose fines if it so chooses.

I think his point was IF the only penalty for a mandate is a fine than it'd be worth to show it up anyway. Obviously if someone can't be in the arena and the permit could be threatened it isn't worth it.

Depends on the size of the fine, yes?

[Liam_Gallagher]

Here’s a list of side effects observed in Canada.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccine-safety/#a3

The people that get fact checked on Facebook are called LIARS because they’re purposely spreading misinformation. Literally all the side effects of every vaccine have been published by the FDA and other regulatory bodies.

Oh liars?

Even posting something about natural immunity and how it’s better than the vaccine will get one banned. ALL doctors who speak out against the vaccine in the US will get their license stripped.

It actually blows me away how people can’t see through this.

Probably because it's not better than the vaccine? Setting aside the fact that you actually have to contract and survive the virus to develop natural immunity, MPJ has already contracted the virus twice within a 12 month period. Natural immunity, for a period of time after a serious infection, results in a good deal of antibodies. But if you had a mild case, you're not safe, especially from Delta.

You know the vaccine is still mandatory for those who have natural immunity right?

[jbk1234]

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate?

The penalty is that he can't be in the arena. If an unvaxxed player can't be in the arena he can't play, and if he doesn't play, he won't get paid.

The state has every right to impose reasonable restrictions for the public good (Jacobsen v. Massachusetts 197 U.S. 11 1905) and an NBA team could be liable if it failed to comply with those restrictions. For starters, if the team defied the city, the city could pull the occupancy permit for the arena, plus impose fines if it so chooses.

I think his point was IF the only penalty for a mandate is a fine than it'd be worth to show it up anyway. Obviously if someone can't be in the arena and the permit could be threatened it isn't worth it.

You get to wear the shiny bracelets behind your back, you're escorted out, and the city picks up the costs of your lodging until arraignment.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[MoneyTalks41890]

Pretty steep fines for violating the mandates, which, you should know, are law.

[First Step]

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate?

The penalty is that he can't be in the arena. If an unvaxxed player can't be in the arena he can't play, and if he doesn't play, he won't get paid.

The state has every right to impose reasonable restrictions for the public good (Jacobsen v. Massachusetts 197 U.S. 11 1905) and an NBA team could be liable if it failed to comply with those restrictions. For starters, if the team defied the city, the city could pull the occupancy permit for the arena, plus impose fines if it so chooses.

If Kyrie is violating the State mandate, the only way the Nets can enforce it is by calling whatever state agency is responsible for enforcing the mandate on the public. It's usually not even the police that handle these infractions as it's not criminal.
Kyrie is an employee of the Nets, so in order to lawfully ban him from the arena it would require them to tresspass him. If they tresspass him and he hasn't violated any laws or contracts with the team, they would be obligated to pay the salary. Or at least the Nets would be vulnerable to a lawsuit if they refused to pay him after he shows up to perform his end of the agreement.

The point wasn't to say that a State can't implement a public health mandate. The point was that because mandates are not criminal, you can defy the orders without much resistance besides disputable fines.

[Ambrose]

The penalty is that he can't be in the arena. If an unvaxxed player can't be in the arena he can't play, and if he doesn't play, he won't get paid.

The state has every right to impose reasonable restrictions for the public good (Jacobsen v. Massachusetts 197 U.S. 11 1905) and an NBA team could be liable if it failed to comply with those restrictions. For starters, if the team defied the city, the city could pull the occupancy permit for the arena, plus impose fines if it so chooses.

I think his point was IF the only penalty for a mandate is a fine than it'd be worth to show it up anyway. Obviously if someone can't be in the arena and the permit could be threatened it isn't worth it.

Depends on the size of the fine, yes?

For sure. Can't imagine it's more than a game check for Kyrie or Wiggins.

[xdrta+]

Except the state does, do you think the NBA supercedes the state in which the team is operating?

Blows my mind that people go along with vaccines throughout childhood and even many get flu shots, but then when this happens it's the end of the world.

Either the players abide by the rules set forth in their state and contracts or they don't get paid. It's not a difficult concept.

The NBA can't force them to get the shot, but they do have the authority to not allow them to play until they do

My question is - what does the State mandate say the consequences for an unvaxxed person who violates the mandate? It's usually a ticket from the State which you can fight in court. It's not a criminal offense to violate the mandate, as it's not law.

Therefore, if Kyrie just simply ignores the mandate, the Nets contractually wouldn't have any reason to withhold his salary. If they tell him to go home, then they are the ones who are violating the terms of their contract and wouldi be obligated to pay him. By Kyrie not getting vaxxed and showing up to work, he is only violating a State mandate, and would only be subjected to that penalty.

Don’t know American law, but I would have thought the question is whether the Nets or the NBA can ignore the mandate.

It would be like a restaurant that ignores health codes, the arena would be shut down. And people that keep saying a "mandate" is not law so just ignore it, have no idea what they are talking about. The San Francisco Health Order has the force of law, as is shown by the statutes in the Order itself, and the NYC Executive Order has the same, the force of law.

[Curmudgeon]

I think his point was IF the only penalty for a mandate is a fine than it'd be worth to show it up anyway. Obviously if someone can't be in the arena and the permit could be threatened it isn't worth it.

Depends on the size of the fine, yes?

For sure. Can't imagine it's more than a game check for Kyrie or Wiggins.

That's about right, although Lacob, Gruber et. al can probably afford more. We're talking about willful violations here-- for each game Wiggins is allowed to play.

[CIN-C-STAR]

If you are not allowed to be somewhere due to a government ordinance of any kind including a health mandate, and you know you aren't supposed to be there, and you show up anyway, guess what? You are now trespassing. Trespassing is criminal.
And, yes, the cops will escort you out, and if you resist, they will likely beat your ass (not Kyrie obviously but a normal person would get their ass beat).
So, yeah, just showing up and expecting to receive a fine in the mail is a terrible idea and very bad legal advice.
Even Kyrie would know better than to try this, and he thinks the earth is flat

[Mamba Mentality]

Man, Jonathan Issac is a very articulate and well versed young man. Encourage everyone to go listen to his stance on why he decided not to get vaccinated. Magic got themselves a gem, he's the type of guy that should be president of the players union.

[First Step]

Non-compliance is the only way out of this for the unvaxxed. Stand strong, make them physically assault you at your work and catch it all on camera. American's still have fundamental rights in the constitution, including freedom of movement, and right to privacy. If you are going to take away millions of dollars from me, you better believe I am going down swinging.