Cooper Flagg

[FrodoBaggins]

Interesting posts. Cooper was the 2024 Gatorade High School Player of the Year; Chet Holmgren and Gradey Dick won the award too in the NIL era. Both put up solid numbers as freshmen:

Dick: 14.1 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.3 topg; 58.1% TS, 40.3% 3PT, 85.4% FT; +7.7 BPM
Holmgren: 14.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.9 apg, 0.8 spg, 3.7 bpg, 1.9 topg; 69.1% TS, 39.0% 3PT, 71.7% FT; +15.0 BPM

College NPOY? Unlikely. I do think Cooper has a pathway toward an elite freshman season. It'd have to be something like sophomore Ryan Dunn on defense and Tatum/Wiggins/Ingram on offense. Out-of-this-world defensive impact with good enough numbers as a primary shot creator. Numbers would probably look similar to his senior year in high school.

This is wrong, NIL in basketball did not come around until spring 2022 recruiting and for that next season. It also wasn't anywhere as crazy that first year as it's gotten to now. The mid majors still kept some of their quality players that year and got a few quality down transfers. The last two years the money is crazy the talent has been consolidated and kept players years after that would have been long gone like 24 year old Hunter Dickinson in CBB and it's showing and accumulated talent like that that would have been gone 2 years ago. Fr are struggling now more than ever. The landscape has changed greatly.

According to KenPom, only five of the top 100 players in offensive rating were true freshmen, compared to 14 in the 2018-19 and 2019-20 seasons. Last season, only two freshmen made the top 100. Playing time for freshmen has remained relatively stable since 2020, but in 2019, nine freshmen ranked in KenPom’s top 100 players for percentage of minutes played—this past season, only two have achieved that.

No back tracking now. Flagg won the #1 player in CBB vote by a landslide and people talk about him as the best High school prospect since LeBron.I thought it was crazy months ago that he'd walk into college basketball and be the best player but that's was the hype that was debated here this summer.

Fair enough. I think CBB NPOY is highly unlikely. I still think he can have a great freshman season. As I said, elite defensive numbers and impact ala sophomore Ryan Dunn with passable efficient offense with enough on-ball reps to display shot creation and playmaking.

12-16 ppg, 5-7 rpg, 2-4 apg, 1-2 spg, 2-3 bpg with 55-60% TS, 35-40% 3PT, 77-82% FT. Something like that...

[dc]

Where is the 7'3" wingspan estimation from? I've seen him listed as 6'11.75" (NBADraft.net/J Kyle Mann) and 7'1" (Sports Illustrated).

Not sure. I think we have to see how big he looks against NCAA guys first to get a feel, but even then a lot of NCAA guys all of a sudden look smaller once they hit the pros.

The entire time I thought Flagg (w/o shoes) was over 6'8" (close to 6'9") with a 7'3" wingspan.

If he's actually closer to 6'7" with a 6'11" wingspan, that sort of diminishes him as a prospect IMO. Now you're counting on him being overwhelmingly skilled or a great shooter to tout him as some AD level prospect worth tanking a season for. I just don't know if I see him as being creative enough with the ball or a good enough shooter to be a top offensive option.

Really, in these pre-college days of his, he's sort of been playing the game of a guy like Chet, but he's nowhere near the physical freak Chet is.

[zero rings]

Flagg looks like a good player, but I'm not sold on him being a generational talent. He looks about 6'8 with a 7'0 wingspan, which is great size for a forward, but not Giannis/AD great. His shot needs to get a lot of better if he's going to dominate in the NBA.

Chet was a better prospect IMO and didn't get this kind of hype.

[dc]

Flagg looks like a good player, but I'm not sold on him being a generational talent. He looks about 6'8 with a 7'0 wingspan, which is great size for a forward, but not Giannis/AD great. His shot needs to get a lot of better if he's going to dominate in the NBA.

Chet was a better prospect IMO and didn't get this kind of hype.

Chet was kind of overshadowed as a rookie because of a once in a lifetime guy like Wemby basically coming into the league at the same time.

As a prospect, he was pretty well touted and probably would've had more hype had he gone to Duke like Flagg. But yeah, no way I'd take Flagg over Chet.

[dc]

does he have wing lateral quickness though?

Seems like a tweener, not a true wing.

I don't see this as a concern, when he'll even be able to even play center. He is heavier than Chet, and likely an even better rim protector (or going to be). I think similarly to KG he will play as a PF/C.

I don't see any way that a 6'7"-6'8" guy is going to be a better rim protector than 7'1" Chet.

Defensively he's more likely going to be closer to Battier than Chet/AD or anyone like that.

[FrodoBaggins]

Where is the 7'3" wingspan estimation from? I've seen him listed as 6'11.75" (NBADraft.net/J Kyle Mann) and 7'1" (Sports Illustrated).

Not sure. I think we have to see how big he looks against NCAA guys first to get a feel, but even then a lot of NCAA guys all of a sudden look smaller once they hit the pros.

The entire time I thought Flagg (w/o shoes) was over 6'8" (close to 6'9") with a 7'3" wingspan.

If he's actually closer to 6'7" with a 6'11" wingspan, that sort of diminishes him as a prospect IMO. Now you're counting on him being overwhelmingly skilled or a great shooter to tout him as some AD level prospect worth tanking a season for. I just don't know if I see him as being creative enough with the ball or a good enough shooter to be a top offensive option.

Really, in these pre-college days of his, he's sort of been playing the game of a guy like Chet, but he's nowhere near the physical freak Chet is.

Agreed on all points. Jayden Quaintance is a legit 6'8" barefoot with a 7'3" wingspan; he looked bigger and longer than Cooper during the Duke-Arizona St exhibition. It's looking like a real possibility that Cooper is more of a Shane Battier/Ryan Dunn/Jalen Johnson/Josh Smith-sized guy.

The guy Flagg is most compared to - Andrei Kirilenko - was a legit 6'9" barefoot with a 7'4"+ wingspan. AK47 is closer in size to guys like Anthony Davis, Dwight Howard, John Henson, Jaren Jackson Jr., etc... Certified big men.

That's not to say he couldn't be a big-time shot-blocker if he comes up short in the size department. Quick leaping off two feet, quick hands, flexible shoulders and arms, great timing/instincts, great positioning and technique, etc also matter. And Cooper ticks all of those boxes; I guess the lack of size just creates a smaller margin for error.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's a 2+ bpg guy in the NBA. But it's unrealistic to expect him to be as good or better than Chet, who's a generational defensive prospect IMO. Just outshined by a GOAT defensive prospect in Wemby...

Best smaller-sized shot-blockers from the FWD position include Stephane Lasme, Bo Outlaw, Josh Smith, Brandon Clarke, Draymond Green, Robert Covington, and Shawn Marion. And I imagine Ryan Dunn also. Smith, Outlaw, and Lasme are the best high-end shot-blocking comparisons for Cooper IMO.

[Johnny Firpo]

There is a 0% chance he's a better rim protector than a long armed freak with outstanding instincts like Chet. I think you are dreaming there, dude.

If his wingspan is indeed 7'3, I think it's not impossible, since he is more athletic/and has just as good instincts imo, but it's not that important. He'll have more of a body/frame to defend centers than Chet, that's more than likely, even if he is not an elite, but just a "good" shot blocker.

Where is the 7'3" wingspan estimation from? I've seen him listed as 6'11.75" (NBADraft.net/J Kyle Mann) and 7'1" (Sports Illustrated).

No official measurements yet, obviously, it's all speculation, but someone calculated it from one of his dunks where he barely jumped the other day. It's definitely above 7 feet by now, he looks huge/long imo, it's anywhere from 7'1 to 7'3 I think,we'll see. He could also still be growing, they said around the summer that he still is growing.

[FrodoBaggins]

Measurements at NBA Draft Combine/as a rookie:

Stephane Lasme: 6'5'' barefoot height, 6'7'' with shoes, 8'11'' standing reach (more like 8'10.25" in standard 1.25" shoes), 7'2'' wingspan, 213 pounds
Josh Smith: 6'7" barefoot height, 6'8.25" with shoes, 8'10.5" standing reach, 7'0" wingspan, 221 pounds
Bo Outlaw: Probably 6'6" to 6'7" barefoot, 6'8" with shoes, most likely a 7'0"+ wingspan, 210 pounds

All three were crazy good shot-blockers. If I recall correctly, Josh Smith, Bo Outlaw, and Andrei Kirilenko are the only non-bigs [defined as not a PF, C, C/PF, or PF/C] in the top 200 all-time for single-season block percentage (BLK%). All three played significant minutes at SF, including multiple whole seasons.

Stephane Lasme only played 303 NBA minutes but had a 5.8 BLK% and swatted a huge number of shots in college and in Europe. He was a special shot-blocker and defensive talent despite his size, as you can see in this video:

Watch on YouTube

So there is precedent for a smaller-sized FWD blocking 2-3+ bpg. You don't absolutely need to be Kirilenko-sized, although it'd certainly be nice.

[12footrim]

Interesting posts. Cooper was the 2024 Gatorade High School Player of the Year; Chet Holmgren and Gradey Dick won the award too in the NIL era. Both put up solid numbers as freshmen:

Dick: 14.1 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 1.7 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.3 bpg, 1.3 topg; 58.1% TS, 40.3% 3PT, 85.4% FT; +7.7 BPM
Holmgren: 14.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 1.9 apg, 0.8 spg, 3.7 bpg, 1.9 topg; 69.1% TS, 39.0% 3PT, 71.7% FT; +15.0 BPM

College NPOY? Unlikely. I do think Cooper has a pathway toward an elite freshman season. It'd have to be something like sophomore Ryan Dunn on defense and Tatum/Wiggins/Ingram on offense. Out-of-this-world defensive impact with good enough numbers as a primary shot creator. Numbers would probably look similar to his senior year in high school.

This is wrong, NIL in basketball did not come around until spring 2022 recruiting and for that next season. It also wasn't anywhere as crazy that first year as it's gotten to now. The mid majors still kept some of their quality players that year and got a few quality down transfers. The last two years the money is crazy the talent has been consolidated and kept players years after that would have been long gone like 24 year old Hunter Dickinson in CBB and it's showing and accumulated talent like that that would have been gone 2 years ago. Fr are struggling now more than ever. The landscape has changed greatly.

According to KenPom, only five of the top 100 players in offensive rating were true freshmen, compared to 14 in the 2018-19 and 2019-20 seasons. Last season, only two freshmen made the top 100. Playing time for freshmen has remained relatively stable since 2020, but in 2019, nine freshmen ranked in KenPom’s top 100 players for percentage of minutes played—this past season, only two have achieved that.

No back tracking now. Flagg won the #1 player in CBB vote by a landslide and people talk about him as the best High school prospect since LeBron.I thought it was crazy months ago that he'd walk into college basketball and be the best player but that's was the hype that was debated here this summer.

Fair enough. I think CBB NPOY is highly unlikely. I still think he can have a great freshman season. As I said, elite defensive numbers and impact ala sophomore Ryan Dunn with passable efficient offense with enough on-ball reps to display shot creation and playmaking.

12-16 ppg, 5-7 rpg, 2-4 apg, 1-2 spg, 2-3 bpg with 55-60% TS, 35-40% 3PT, 77-82% FT. Something like that...

He's a 17-year-old, 205 lb PF who I think is going to struggle, probably the most on the boards, with the strength of the guys he will have to guard, like KJ Adams and Trey Townsend. He only averaged 7.5 rebounds per game in high school, which was tied with Queen on Montverde. It's not like he's an elite rebounder, and he's barely rebounded in the 65 preseason minutes he’s played—less than 5 per 30 minutes as the starting PF.

Rim defense is probably the area where he can make the most impact as a 17-year-old. The 2.7 blocks and 1.6 steals per game are fine for high school but not blow-you-away elite. That’s not something anyone can blame on being on an "all-star" team either, but I can't see that translating one-for-one in college. He played 65 minutes and didn't get a steal. The 4 blocks he got were all against the 17-14 180th ranked D2 team, and 3 of them came from blocking long twos and a 3-pointer on their 5'10" D2 guard.

He has shot-blocking instincts, but they are overstated in my opinion, and if he's hunting blocks, teams will score more. Even his defensive impact in high school was vastly overstated, in my opinion. We don't have efficiency or pace stats, but if you take the points per minute and adjust from 32 to 40 minutes, Montverde, even with their "all-star" team around him, was giving up points—69 ppg adjusted. They would have ranked 74th in D1 last year, so this wasn't the Houston of high school defenses. Most of that was run up against some bad teams and unranked ones, like a 3-win team they still gave up 38 points to. Good teams scored on them, and there wasn't even a shot clock in some of the games, which makes it worse. It's not like the guy is Mutombo shutting down everything at the rim.

[dc]

He's a 17 year old 205lb PF who I think is going to struggle probably the most on the boards with the strenght of the guys he will have to guard like KJ Adams and Trey Townsend. He only averaged 7.5 rebounds per game in HS which was tied with Queen on Montverde. It's not like he's an elite rebounder, and he's barely rebounded in the 65 preseason minutes. Less than 5 per 30 minutes as the starting PF.

Rim Defense is probably the area he can most make an impact on as a 17 year old. The 2.7 blocks and 1.6 steals per game is fine for high school, not blow you away elite. That's not something anyone can blame on being on an "all star" team either, but I can't see the that translating one for one in college. The guy played 65 minutes and didn't get a steal. The 4 blocks he got were all vs the D2 team and 3 of them were blocking long twos and a 3 pointer on their 5-10 D2 guard.

He has shotblocking instincts but they are overstated IMO and if he's hunting Blocks teams will score more. Even his defensive impact in HS was vastly overstated IMO. Yeah we don't have efficiency or pace stats but if you take the points per minute and adjust the 32 to 40 minutes Montverde even with their "all star" team around him was giving up points. 69ppg and they would have ranked 74th in D1 last year, so this wasn't the Houston of HS defenses. Most of that was run up vs some bad teams and unranked ones like a 3 win team they gave up 38 points too. Good teams scored on them and their wasn't even shot clock some of the games which makes it worse. It's not like the guy is Mutumbo shutting down anything at the rim.

Yeah, you don't know how well shotblocking translates to the next level from guys his size.

Shane Battier played as a "big" in college. He was a legit shotblocker with 2+ blocks a game his 3rd/4th seasons at Duke. In the pros he was never that type of shotblocker and transitioned to more of a wing/all around defender.

[12footrim]

He's a 17 year old 205lb PF who I think is going to struggle probably the most on the boards with the strenght of the guys he will have to guard like KJ Adams and Trey Townsend. He only averaged 7.5 rebounds per game in HS which was tied with Queen on Montverde. It's not like he's an elite rebounder, and he's barely rebounded in the 65 preseason minutes. Less than 5 per 30 minutes as the starting PF.

Rim Defense is probably the area he can most make an impact on as a 17 year old. The 2.7 blocks and 1.6 steals per game is fine for high school, not blow you away elite. That's not something anyone can blame on being on an "all star" team either, but I can't see the that translating one for one in college. The guy played 65 minutes and didn't get a steal. The 4 blocks he got were all vs the D2 team and 3 of them were blocking long twos and a 3 pointer on their 5-10 D2 guard.

He has shotblocking instincts but they are overstated IMO and if he's hunting Blocks teams will score more. Even his defensive impact in HS was vastly overstated IMO. Yeah we don't have efficiency or pace stats but if you take the points per minute and adjust the 32 to 40 minutes Montverde even with their "all star" team around him was giving up points. 69ppg and they would have ranked 74th in D1 last year, so this wasn't the Houston of HS defenses. Most of that was run up vs some bad teams and unranked ones like a 3 win team they gave up 38 points too. Good teams scored on them and their wasn't even shot clock some of the games which makes it worse. It's not like the guy is Mutumbo shutting down anything at the rim.

Yeah, you don't know how well shotblocking translates to the next level from guys his size.

Shane Battier played as a "big" in college. He was a legit shotblocker with 2+ blocks a game his 3rd/4th seasons at Duke. In the pros he was never that type of shotblocker and transitioned to more of a wing/all around defender.

I'm only talking about College this year. I don't think he's even going to be some 3 blocks a game shotblocking monster at Duke even as the starting PF around the rim. Maluach might be though.

[UcanUwill]

Measurements at NBA Draft Combine/as a rookie:

Stephane Lasme: 6'5'' barefoot height, 6'7'' with shoes, 8'11'' standing reach (more like 8'10.25" in standard 1.25" shoes), 7'2'' wingspan, 213 pounds
Josh Smith: 6'7" barefoot height, 6'8.25" with shoes, 8'10.5" standing reach, 7'0" wingspan, 221 pounds
Bo Outlaw: Probably 6'6" to 6'7" barefoot, 6'8" with shoes, most likely a 7'0"+ wingspan, 210 pounds

All three were crazy good shot-blockers. If I recall correctly, Josh Smith, Bo Outlaw, and Andrei Kirilenko are the only non-bigs [defined as not a PF, C, C/PF, or PF/C] in the top 200 all-time for single-season block percentage (BLK%). All three played significant minutes at SF, including multiple whole seasons.

Stephane Lasme only played 303 NBA minutes but had a 5.8 BLK% and swatted a huge number of shots in college and in Europe. He was a special shot-blocker and defensive talent despite his size, as you can see in this video:

Watch on YouTube

So there is precedent for a smaller-sized FWD blocking 2-3+ bpg. You don't absolutely need to be Kirilenko-sized, although it'd certainly be nice.

Oh wow, Stéphane Lasme throwback, I never new I would see such day. He was great, lots of nostalgia watching that video, he was rare EL player, usually Euroleague doesn't have rim protectors at all. Flagg will obviosly be an elite rim protector, I don't even know what we are arguing, will he be better than Chet, probably not, but its not out of the window.

Joey Dorsey and Alex Tyus were another undersized bigs who were pretty good rim protectors.

P.S. Euros overuse this music track in their player mixes, my god we had like 20 of these.

[dc]

Flagg will obviosly be an elite rim protector, I don't even know what we are arguing, will he be better than Chet, probably not, but its not out of the window.

Joey Dorsey and Alex Tyus were another undersized bigs who were pretty good rim protectors.

I don't see how it's automatic how a 6'7-6'8" guy is surely going to be an elite rim protector in the NBA and I'd bet my house he won't be as good at Chet at this. Josh Smith was more athletic than Flagg is. And even with all the blocks, the guy at his height was never a deterrent the way a true big man is.

A guy like Chet or AD is going to deter people from even trying to get a lot of shots off. Smith was never that type of guy. He'd obviously get his blocks, but he didn't have the presence of a true big.

[FrodoBaggins]

Robert Covington might be a solid defensive comparison. Feels like they share a lot of similar strengths on defense. Both excel off-ball and are active playmakers blocking shots and accumulating steals and deflection. FWIW, RAPM loves Covington on defense: +2.8 per 100 D-RAPM in the age curve-adjusted 28-year lifetime RAPM database.

Cooper is stronger, more sturdily built, has better balance, and is more of a shot-blocker/vertical presence due to superior all-round jumping ability.

Strength is an underrated athletic quality for a defender IMO. Covington has a lot of similarities to Draymond but lacks the strength and weight to be more of a pseudo-big man protecting the paint, grappling down low, and rebounding the ball. I look at Cooper's broad frame and well-formed limbs and I wonder if he may be able to develop some Draymond-like big man versatility. I could see Flagg get up to 235 like Dray/Gordon.

Draft measurements

Height: 6'7.5" with shoes, 6'6.25" without shoes
Weight: 208.6 lbs
Wingspan: 7'1.75"
Standing reach: 8'10"
Standing vertical leap: 29.5 in
Max vertical leap: 36 in

Watch on YouTube

[RookieStar]

All Magic fans after hearing/reading about the Paolo injury has just one question....

What size and number Magic jersey is Flagg gonna use?

[zimpy27]

Size and wingspan are just 2 measurements that relate to defense but don't tell the full story.

Reaction speed is a bigger piece

[Johnny Firpo]

Flagg will obviosly be an elite rim protector, I don't even know what we are arguing, will he be better than Chet, probably not, but its not out of the window.

Joey Dorsey and Alex Tyus were another undersized bigs who were pretty good rim protectors.

I don't see how it's automatic how a 6'7-6'8" guy is surely going to be an elite rim protector in the NBA and I'd bet my house he won't be as good at Chet at this. Josh Smith was more athletic than Flagg is. And even with all the blocks, the guy at his height was never a deterrent the way a true big man is.

A guy like Chet or AD is going to deter people from even trying to get a lot of shots off. Smith was never that type of guy. He'd obviously get his blocks, but he didn't have the presence of a true big.

There is no way he is 6'7. He doesn't look 6'7. I understand the eye test can be tricky here, but we all can see that he is not 6'7, and obviously you as well. He is anywhere from 6'8.5'' and 6'9.5''.

[FrodoBaggins]

I think Cooper is somewhere between 6'7.5" and 6'8" barefoot. 6'9" barefoot is probably pushing it per his photos with 6'8" barefoot Jayson Tatum and 6'7.25" LeBron James:





Here's a slowed-down GIF of Cooper standing close to 6'8.75" barefoot Bam Adebayo:



And at the free-throw line:







Not the best angle but I think Cooper's shoulder is a little higher than LeBron's. I think he's a little taller.



Cooper with Sean Stewart, who like Flagg at Duke, is listed at 6'9" and was listed at 6'8" at times in high school. They look more or less the same height when you account for the hair and distance from the camera. Cooper's shoulders are higher but that's also because Sean has a longer neck.

Cooper's stance continues to be wider compared to others. He has that wide body; he reminds me a little of LeBron in that regard.

[UcanUwill]

Flagg will obviosly be an elite rim protector, I don't even know what we are arguing, will he be better than Chet, probably not, but its not out of the window.

Joey Dorsey and Alex Tyus were another undersized bigs who were pretty good rim protectors.

I don't see how it's automatic how a 6'7-6'8" guy is surely going to be an elite rim protector in the NBA and I'd bet my house he won't be as good at Chet at this. Josh Smith was more athletic than Flagg is. And even with all the blocks, the guy at his height was never a deterrent the way a true big man is.

A guy like Chet or AD is going to deter people from even trying to get a lot of shots off. Smith was never that type of guy. He'd obviously get his blocks, but he didn't have the presence of a true big.

There is no way he is 6'7. He doesn't look 6'7. I understand the eye test can be tricky here, but we all can see that he is not 6'7, and obviously you as well. He is anywhere from 6'8.5'' and 6'9.5''.

Yeah, he doesn't really look that much shorter than Anthony Davis, and he is not 18 yet, he could still grow.

[UcanUwill]

I think Cooper is somewhere between 6'7.5" and 6'8" barefoot. 6'9" barefoot is probably pushing it per his photos with 6'8" barefoot Jayson Tatum and 6'7.25" LeBron James:





Here's a slowed-down GIF of Cooper standing close to 6'8.75" barefoot Bam Adebayo:



And at the free-throw line:







Not the best angle but I think Cooper's shoulder is a little higher than LeBron's. I think he's a little taller.



Cooper with Sean Stewart, who like Flagg at Duke, is listed at 6'9" and was listed at 6'8" at times in high school. They look more or less the same height when you account for the hair and distance from the camera. Cooper's shoulders are higher but that's also because Sean has a longer neck.

Cooper's stance continues to be wider compared to others. He has that wide body; he reminds me a little of LeBron in that regard.

As a guy with no neck, I will never know what its like to have neck these guys have. Seriously, bo body, posture, everything is very bad, i almost literally have no neck, my torso just ends and head begins, I can't even button up most shirts, because my neck area is too thick there. I am very short at only 5'9, but over the years, I realized that I would probably be legit 5'11 if I had average neck Sorry for OT, but man, I am amazed the bodies these guys have