The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[BelgradeNugget]

"Obviously, Nikola is not a guy in the league that you would say is an elite defender, but he's one of the highest IQ guys in the league," Haliburton said. "And I thought he did a great job in the pick-and-roll making me have to make different reads."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44004654/nikola-jokic-career-high-19-assists-denver-nuggets-win

[PostGameDaVinci]

Jokic is an elite bad defender. Probably the best bad defender in the league. He maximizes his defensive potential considering his slow foot speed and fear of being in foul trouble.

To act like failing to contest shots is a good thing though is actually insane. If he was a good defender, he'd be able to contest without fouling. Getting steals is adorable, but a center's primary responsibility is rim protection and Jokic is a bad rim protector.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic is an elite bad defender. Probably the best bad defender in the league. He maximizes his defensive potential considering his slow foot speed and fear of being in foul trouble.

To act like failing to contest shots is a good thing though is actually insane. If he was a good defender, he'd be able to contest without fouling. Getting steals is adorable, but a center's primary responsibility is rim protection and Jokic is a bad rim protector.

Bam is not a good rim protector but is probably the second best defender at the center position. No one is saying saying jokic is an elite or great defender.

[DimesandKnicks]

tracking data are not saying that, they are focusing on single data points and don't provide and overall evaluation of a player's defense, on their own.
your interpretation of those numbers is.

I can pretty much just watch him play. I'm providing metrics for the people who see them as their holy grail. And tracking data absolutely makes a case that Jokic is one of the worst defensive players in the league.

no it doesn't...

What you've shown is he's one of the worst at contesting shots. That's a TINY part of defense. Most defense is done without a contest by each individual player. There's only 1 ball.

Call that a TINY part of defense whilr amplifying everything he's good at is delusional and demonstrates your bias.

[BelgradeNugget]

Jokic is an elite bad defender. Probably the best bad defender in the league. He maximizes his defensive potential considering his slow foot speed and fear of being in foul trouble.

To act like failing to contest shots is a good thing though is actually insane. If he was a good defender, he'd be able to contest without fouling. Getting steals is adorable, but a center's primary responsibility is rim protection and Jokic is a bad rim protector.

Yes, that is what people used to say about former blocks leader Hassan Whiteside, before some folks find out that Miami actually had better defense with him on the bench. But blocking shots is adorable especially if the ball goes in the stands.

[PostGameDaVinci]

Jokic is an elite bad defender. Probably the best bad defender in the league. He maximizes his defensive potential considering his slow foot speed and fear of being in foul trouble.

To act like failing to contest shots is a good thing though is actually insane. If he was a good defender, he'd be able to contest without fouling. Getting steals is adorable, but a center's primary responsibility is rim protection and Jokic is a bad rim protector.

Yes, that is what people used to say about former blocks leader Hassan Whiteside, before some folks find out that Miami actually had better defense with him on the bench. But blocking shots is adorable especially if the ball goes in the stands.

Yes, Hassan Whiteside wasn't a good defender in spite of his stocks. The tone of your post seems like disagreement but you're making my point for me.

[BelgradeNugget]

Jokic is an elite bad defender. Probably the best bad defender in the league. He maximizes his defensive potential considering his slow foot speed and fear of being in foul trouble.

To act like failing to contest shots is a good thing though is actually insane. If he was a good defender, he'd be able to contest without fouling. Getting steals is adorable, but a center's primary responsibility is rim protection and Jokic is a bad rim protector.

Yes, that is what people used to say about former blocks leader Hassan Whiteside, before some folks find out that Miami actually had better defense with him on the bench. But blocking shots is adorable especially if the ball goes in the stands.

Yes, Hassan Whiteside wasn't a good defender in spite of his stocks. The tone of your post seems like disagreement but you're making my point for me.

I'm not talking about stocks I'm talking about blocks. You know the best way to protect the rim. Steals don't count by your expertise on defense.

[dhsilv2]

I can pretty much just watch him play. I'm providing metrics for the people who see them as their holy grail. And tracking data absolutely makes a case that Jokic is one of the worst defensive players in the league.

no it doesn't...

What you've shown is he's one of the worst at contesting shots. That's a TINY part of defense. Most defense is done without a contest by each individual player. There's only 1 ball.

Call that a TINY part of defense whilr amplifying everything he's good at is delusional and demonstrates your bias.

No, that's what RAPM data has taught us has the most impact. I feel like we're talking early 00's where Bowen had people saying he was a better defender than Duncan.

But yes, I do have a bias to the totality of facts and what the data in total says is happening. You have a bias to your limited eye test.

[PostGameDaVinci]

Yes, that is what people used to say about former blocks leader Hassan Whiteside, before some folks find out that Miami actually had better defense with him on the bench. But blocking shots is adorable especially if the ball goes in the stands.

Yes, Hassan Whiteside wasn't a good defender in spite of his stocks. The tone of your post seems like disagreement but you're making my point for me.

I'm not talking about stocks I'm talking about blocks. You know the best way to protect the rim. Steals don't count by your expertise on defense.

When did I say blocks are the best way to defend the rim? I don't know you're talking about. Stocks alone don't make you a good defender. Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block. They end with a good contest.

What role is Jokic playing on defense if not the rim protector? As the rim protector, he needs to consistently give good contests, which he doesn't.

[DimesandKnicks]

no it doesn't...

What you've shown is he's one of the worst at contesting shots. That's a TINY part of defense. Most defense is done without a contest by each individual player. There's only 1 ball.

Call that a TINY part of defense whilr amplifying everything he's good at is delusional and demonstrates your bias.

No, that's what RAPM data has taught us has the most impact. I feel like we're talking early 00's where Bowen had people saying he was a better defender than Duncan.

But yes, I do have a bias to the totality of facts and what the data in total says is happening. You have a bias to your limited eye test.

No, that’s what RAPM has taught you. A metric that has Caruso as the third most impactful defender in the last 29 years and Lamar Odom as a top 50 defender.

Again, how is this metric that usurps seemingly our eye test and every other metric calculated?

[BelgradeNugget]

Yes, Hassan Whiteside wasn't a good defender in spite of his stocks. The tone of your post seems like disagreement but you're making my point for me.

I'm not talking about stocks I'm talking about blocks. You know the best way to protect the rim. Steals don't count by your expertise on defense.

When did I say blocks are the best way to defend the rim? I don't know you're talking about. Stocks alone don't make you a good defender. Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block. They end with a good contest.

What role is Jokic playing on defense if not the rim protector? As the rim protector, he needs to consistently give good contests, which he doesn't.

"Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block" this is where you are semi-right. Steal ends defensive possession, blocks don't.

"They end with a good contest" here is where you are wrong. Defensive possessions end when opposing team score, with steal, to or with defensive rebound. Good contest is important part of defense but not the only part of defense.

Here is a little math on famous rim protectiong %

In 10 offensive possessions Player A forces a miss 10 times, let opponent get offensive rebound, and score on tip in. He is 50% rim protector. Great. Opponent score 20 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player A

In 10 offensive possessions Player B forces a miss 4 times, but secures deffensive rebound every time. He is 60% rim protector. Bad. Opponenet score 16 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player B.

But Player A must be better defender, defensive rim protection says so, right? Now, simple math says something else right?
You know what simple math says. Rim protection is not only stat that defines someones defensive impact, it is one of many, it can be flawed and misleading if used as end all defensive stat...as other people here tried to tell you.

EDIT> What role is Jokic playing on defense?

"Obviously, Nikola is not a guy in the league that you would say is an elite defender, but he's one of the highest IQ guys in the league," Haliburton said. "And I thought he did a great job in the pick-and-roll making me have to make different reads."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44004654/nikola-jokic-career-high-19-assists-denver-nuggets-win

[dhsilv2]

Call that a TINY part of defense whilr amplifying everything he's good at is delusional and demonstrates your bias.

No, that's what RAPM data has taught us has the most impact. I feel like we're talking early 00's where Bowen had people saying he was a better defender than Duncan.

But yes, I do have a bias to the totality of facts and what the data in total says is happening. You have a bias to your limited eye test.

No, that’s what RAPM has taught you. A metric that has Caruso as the third most impactful defender in the last 29 years and Lamar Odom as a top 50 defender.

Again, how is this metric that usurps seemingly our eye test and every other metric calculated?

It doesn't show that. Though Caruso being a top 10 defender doesn't seem surprising at all.

But RAPM usurps our eye test because it work better than our or anyone's eye test. It's 2025, the debates over if RAPM works or if NBA team's use it is over. It's our most powerful tool to judge what's happening that our eyes aren't seeing.

[PostGameDaVinci]

I'm not talking about stocks I'm talking about blocks. You know the best way to protect the rim. Steals don't count by your expertise on defense.

When did I say blocks are the best way to defend the rim? I don't know you're talking about. Stocks alone don't make you a good defender. Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block. They end with a good contest.

What role is Jokic playing on defense if not the rim protector? As the rim protector, he needs to consistently give good contests, which he doesn't.

"Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block" this is where you are semi-right. Steal ends defensive possession, blocks don't.

"They end with a good contest" here is where you are wrong. Defensive possessions end when opposing team score, with steal, to or with defensive rebound. Good contest is important part of defense but not the only part of defense.

Here is a little math on famous rim protectiong %

In 10 offensive possessions Player A forces a miss 10 times, let opponent get offensive rebound, and score on tip in. He is 50% rim protector. Great. Opponent score 20 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player A

In 10 offensive possessions Player B forces a miss 4 times, but secures deffensive rebound every time. He is 60% rim protector. Bad. Opponenet score 16 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player B.

But Player A must be better defender, defensive rim protection says so, right? Now, simple math says something else right?
You know what simple math says. Rim protection is not only stat that defines someones defensive impact, it is one of many, it can be flawed and misleading if used as end all defensive stat...as other people here tried to tell you.

EDIT> What role is Jokic playing on defense?

"Obviously, Nikola is not a guy in the league that you would say is an elite defender, but he's one of the highest IQ guys in the league," Haliburton said. "And I thought he did a great job in the pick-and-roll making me have to make different reads."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44004654/nikola-jokic-career-high-19-assists-denver-nuggets-win

My first post said that rim protection is a center's primary responsibility, not the only one. You're arguing with yourself. You can protect the rim without fouling and also grab defensive boards. They're not mutually exclusive.
The mental gymnastics in here to downplay rim protection is insane. Maybe teams will learn from Jokic & give up open high value shots so they can crash the boards instead.

[BelgradeNugget]

When did I say blocks are the best way to defend the rim? I don't know you're talking about. Stocks alone don't make you a good defender. Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block. They end with a good contest.

What role is Jokic playing on defense if not the rim protector? As the rim protector, he needs to consistently give good contests, which he doesn't.

"Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block" this is where you are semi-right. Steal ends defensive possession, blocks don't.

"They end with a good contest" here is where you are wrong. Defensive possessions end when opposing team score, with steal, to or with defensive rebound. Good contest is important part of defense but not the only part of defense.

Here is a little math on famous rim protectiong %

In 10 offensive possessions Player A forces a miss 10 times, let opponent get offensive rebound, and score on tip in. He is 50% rim protector. Great. Opponent score 20 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player A

In 10 offensive possessions Player B forces a miss 4 times, but secures deffensive rebound every time. He is 60% rim protector. Bad. Opponenet score 16 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player B.

But Player A must be better defender, defensive rim protection says so, right? Now, simple math says something else right?
You know what simple math says. Rim protection is not only stat that defines someones defensive impact, it is one of many, it can be flawed and misleading if used as end all defensive stat...as other people here tried to tell you.

EDIT> What role is Jokic playing on defense?

"Obviously, Nikola is not a guy in the league that you would say is an elite defender, but he's one of the highest IQ guys in the league," Haliburton said. "And I thought he did a great job in the pick-and-roll making me have to make different reads."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44004654/nikola-jokic-career-high-19-assists-denver-nuggets-win

My first post said that rim protection is a center's primary responsibility, not the only one. You're arguing with yourself. You can protect the rim without fouling and also grab defensive boards. They're not mutually exclusive.
The mental gymnastics in here to downplay rim protection is insane. Maybe teams will learn from Jokic & give up open high value shots so they can crash the boards instead.

You are using mental gimnastics here to try to downplay other aspects of defense. Yes rim protection is important as is avoiding fouling, defensive rebounding, steals, deflections, positioning...and yes you can be good defender if you are bad rim protector as center, but great in everything else, and bad defender if you are good in rim protection, but bad in everything else, as Hassan Witheside was.

That is what advanced stats tell us...but, but what about eye test? Well it is hard to make eye test argument when you watch him play 5 times a year, and by the way he had some of the worse defensive games against Knicks this year.

[DimesandKnicks]

No, that's what RAPM data has taught us has the most impact. I feel like we're talking early 00's where Bowen had people saying he was a better defender than Duncan.

But yes, I do have a bias to the totality of facts and what the data in total says is happening. You have a bias to your limited eye test.

No, that’s what RAPM has taught you. A metric that has Caruso as the third most impactful defender in the last 29 years and Lamar Odom as a top 50 defender.

Again, how is this metric that usurps seemingly our eye test and every other metric calculated?

It doesn't show that. Though Caruso being a top 10 defender doesn't seem surprising at all.

But RAPM usurps our eye test because it work better than our or anyone's eye test. It's 2025, the debates over if RAPM works or if NBA team's use it is over. It's our most powerful tool to judge what's happening that our eyes aren't seeing.

This is complete conjecture

[JonHeist]

trying to argue jokic is a good defender is like trying to argue giannis is a good freethrow shooter

just completely delusional to the point where you have to question any other basketball takes that person has

[PostGameDaVinci]

"Most good defensive possessions don't end in a steal or block" this is where you are semi-right. Steal ends defensive possession, blocks don't.

"They end with a good contest" here is where you are wrong. Defensive possessions end when opposing team score, with steal, to or with defensive rebound. Good contest is important part of defense but not the only part of defense.

Here is a little math on famous rim protectiong %

In 10 offensive possessions Player A forces a miss 10 times, let opponent get offensive rebound, and score on tip in. He is 50% rim protector. Great. Opponent score 20 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player A

In 10 offensive possessions Player B forces a miss 4 times, but secures deffensive rebound every time. He is 60% rim protector. Bad. Opponenet score 16 points in his 10 offensive possessions guarded by Player B.

But Player A must be better defender, defensive rim protection says so, right? Now, simple math says something else right?
You know what simple math says. Rim protection is not only stat that defines someones defensive impact, it is one of many, it can be flawed and misleading if used as end all defensive stat...as other people here tried to tell you.

EDIT> What role is Jokic playing on defense?

"Obviously, Nikola is not a guy in the league that you would say is an elite defender, but he's one of the highest IQ guys in the league," Haliburton said. "And I thought he did a great job in the pick-and-roll making me have to make different reads."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/44004654/nikola-jokic-career-high-19-assists-denver-nuggets-win

My first post said that rim protection is a center's primary responsibility, not the only one. You're arguing with yourself. You can protect the rim without fouling and also grab defensive boards. They're not mutually exclusive.
The mental gymnastics in here to downplay rim protection is insane. Maybe teams will learn from Jokic & give up open high value shots so they can crash the boards instead.

You are using mental gimnastics here to try to downplay other aspects of defense. Yes rim protection is important as is avoiding fouling, defensive rebounding, steals, deflections, positioning...and yes you can be good defender if you are bad rim protector as center, but great in everything else, and bad defender if you are good in rim protection, but bad in everything else, as Hassan Witheside was.

That is what advanced stats tell us...but, but what about eye test? Well it is hard to make eye test argument when you watch him play 5 times a year, and by the way he had some of the worse defensive games against Knicks this year.

We're talking past each other. Jokic does good things defensively but he doesn't do the main thing required of his position. A center needs to protect the rim if you want to have a great defense. If the center doesn't protect the rim, who does? Same as how it's hard to have a great defense if your guards can't chase over the top. It's required of the position.
We disagree on the importance of rim protection from the 5. Fair. We can agree to disagree.

[dhsilv2]

No, that’s what RAPM has taught you. A metric that has Caruso as the third most impactful defender in the last 29 years and Lamar Odom as a top 50 defender.

Again, how is this metric that usurps seemingly our eye test and every other metric calculated?

It doesn't show that. Though Caruso being a top 10 defender doesn't seem surprising at all.

But RAPM usurps our eye test because it work better than our or anyone's eye test. It's 2025, the debates over if RAPM works or if NBA team's use it is over. It's our most powerful tool to judge what's happening that our eyes aren't seeing.

This is complete conjecture

No, what you've been doing is actually conjecture. While RAPM is not perfect, it is an actual honest attempt to compiling all the data.

I have asked you over and over to attempt to show the value of things like "off ball location" or "steals". You haven't attempted or even been willing to try and do that. As a result everything you've provided is by definition conjecture "an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information."

[dhsilv2]

My first post said that rim protection is a center's primary responsibility, not the only one. You're arguing with yourself. You can protect the rim without fouling and also grab defensive boards. They're not mutually exclusive.
The mental gymnastics in here to downplay rim protection is insane. Maybe teams will learn from Jokic & give up open high value shots so they can crash the boards instead.

You are using mental gimnastics here to try to downplay other aspects of defense. Yes rim protection is important as is avoiding fouling, defensive rebounding, steals, deflections, positioning...and yes you can be good defender if you are bad rim protector as center, but great in everything else, and bad defender if you are good in rim protection, but bad in everything else, as Hassan Witheside was.

That is what advanced stats tell us...but, but what about eye test? Well it is hard to make eye test argument when you watch him play 5 times a year, and by the way he had some of the worse defensive games against Knicks this year.

We're talking past each other. Jokic does good things defensively but he doesn't do the main thing required of his position. A center needs to protect the rim if you want to have a great defense. If the center doesn't protect the rim, who does? Same as how it's hard to have a great defense if your guards can't chase over the top. It's required of the position.
We disagree on the importance of rim protection from the 5. Fair. We can agree to disagree.

Can you explain the totality of rim protection to you? And then can you explain what a 5 is? Do all teams have a 5 in all defensive sets? Does the 4 and 5 change as the play progresses?

[dhsilv2]

trying to argue jokic is a good defender is like trying to argue giannis is a good freethrow shooter

just completely delusional to the point where you have to question any other basketball takes that person has

Nobody has said he's good...