Shams: Nuggets Fire Malone & Booth

[robbie84]

4 game losing streak causes them to fire the dude who got them that banner hanging in Ball Arena.

hmmmm. Malone ain't the dude who got them hanging a banner in Ball Arena.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

My 2 cents:
- it is a fact that, over the last 5 years, basically no lineup worked when Jokic was not on the floor. This for me has always been a red flag on Malone's coaching and ability to prepare his team. Jokic can mask a lot of problems
- there have also has been a few cases of players, in particular backup bigs, that found no opportunity with Malone, but had some success elsewhere (Hartenstein is the most obvious one)
- all players were looking awful without Jokic, and this impact in particular those guys, often young, not sharing minutes with him. I could see them in absolutely wretched lineups, killing their confidence
- I did like Booth idea, in theory. I think Jokic alone creates an environment extremely favorable for developing young guys, at least offensively. He can mask their weaknesses and put them in the best spots to succeed. I like the idea of creating a base for sustained success rather than this BS "all in" talk, that leads to a wasteland in the middle of a generational superstar prime (see Bucks and Giannis)
- But you can't implement something like this if the coach is not on board. In particular a coach that has more organizational capital than you. You can have a great vision, but Booth has shown no leadership and people skills to execute it
- According to all accounts, both Malone and Booth have been incredibly unprofessional, putting their ego and personal beef over the good of the team. It affected the on court play and that's why both had to go. I am not a kid, I have 20 years of management experience in MNCs and I have seen this multiple times. There are smart people who just don't know how to be team players, they focus on their personal battles and they end up damaging the whole organization. It was very obvious to *me*, from the outside, what was happening. From Malone rotations, to Booth personnel decisions, to how both acted on the media. And if it was obvious to me, I can't fathom how toxic it was inside.
- When I talk about decisions, look at how Malone managed Nnaji or PIckett, while complaining all the time. Or how Booth sent away Justin Holiday to force Malone to play the young guys. You don't do this stuff to make your peer look bad and prove a point, this is not how successful organizations work
- Once you, as the owner, see this, both mut go. It's not about who could have been right or wrong. You proved you lacked the maturity to be given the responsibility of managing Nikola Jokic's prime

I think this roster is not perfect, but it has championship potential having the great equalizer in Jokic.
It's not easy to coach as you don't have much on ball creation. It's not easy to improve as you have four very high paid players, three of them having health issues this year. But both Booth and Malone did what they could to make a tough situation worse.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Booth got canned because he put together an awful team and waisted assets.

Malone got canned because he could never put together a functional offense without Jokic on the court.

no, both got canned because they have been fought each other for almost three years, creating factions in the organization, making decisions just to make the other look bad, and finally affecting the vibes and the spirit in the locker room.

and this team is far from awful.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Malone had a privilege of coaching best player in NBA, he's a decent coach but unreasonably headstrong and the way he clashed with Booth(whether his decisions were good or bad) was over the line.

Let's be real here, his constant passive-agressive comments aimed at FO is how we knew about this conflict in the first place and from the looks of it Malone was the driving force behind it.

I get not being happy with the roster, but to the point of refusing to play "Booth young guys" to prove a point? He had to go, today's as good as any day.
If anything with how rotten the atmosphere around the team was their playoff chances might've improved.

Booth vision for the team sucked, but he had very little to work with as far as making improvements go- having said that giving Jamal this extension was a crime and Denver will be paying for this mistake for years to come.

I think the vision was good, maybe the execution sucked. In particular because he didn't make sure his coach was on board.
And giving Jamal the extension was an ownership decision and something Malone very strongly advocated for.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The Nuggets did Malone dirty. Booth did a poor job regardless, he deserved the Boot. This will bite them in the ass. Jokic is a super loyal guy, but I highly doubt he’s on board with this.

I'm not sure it was Booths fault.

He put together the championship team and paid them. Ownership are on the cheap side so he had to keep getting younger.

I mean.. they overpaid MPJ and Murray. They only didn’t pay KCP and Brown right? Both went on to get much bigger contracts than their current play warrants.

MPJ has been paid by Connelly, Murray was obviously an ownership decisions (GMs rarely can have the final say on the top guys and such large commitments). And it's not like they had any chance to replace him.
The couldn't match Indy's offer on Brown.
KCP I still think it was the right choice, it's not like he's been lighting the League on fire.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

They didnt even kept justin holiday who at least could shoot a 3 and play some defense, and instead Malone is forced to play Hunter Tyson, clearly a G-league player or short rotation and put everything on 8 guys.... and then HE gets fired.... bull

I like Tyson, and Malone hasn't really been forced to play him much.
He more got forced to play Peyton Watson.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The Nuggets basically gave up on the season with this move.

Probably the opposite

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The Nuggets basically gave up on the season with this move.

Eh. Ownership is betting it lights a fire under them and Adelman is basically running the same system. I don't think it changes the outcome either way, but I doubt the players are just gonna hang their heads and quit. This is a core that won the title.

I've been watching the NBA for almost 30 years now and in my experience the way Denver played throughout the season and more specifically, the last 10 games has been pretty underwhelming, even when you account for injuries.

When a team is in this type of funk so late in the season combined with signs of inconsistency throughout the season, there is probably less than a 5 percent chance they could win it all-and that chance is all because of Jokic.

Imo, when you have the clear best player in the NBA and there is clear dysfunction with management, I feel the owners have nothing to lose with this move and small potential to galvanize the troops.

Drastic times call for drastic measures as they say and both Booth and Malone have to share the blame as they both have underperformed at their jobs, given the results.

this way they are also giving Adelman an opportunity

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Agree, agree, and yeah, makes sense.

I think the Murray/Porter contracts haven't worked out well, but it's hard to say that they were utterly incompetent for them. Literally both players played up to the level of those contract BEFORE they ever signed them, they've just not been able to be consistently on that level after. Sometimes that's how it goes.

The thing is though, while it absolutely makes sense with the cap to decide on your core guys - in this case Jokic/Murray/Porter/Gordon - and not letting the rest of your team get bloated with bigger contracts, if 2 of those 4 core guys aren't working out like they were supposed to, you're really not in a position where you can sacrifice depth and remain competitive.

Further, while no matter how rich the owner is I respect frugality, when you recognize that you now have not just a clear cut franchise player, but by far the best player you'll ever have on this franchise until you die, this isn't the time to cut corners. Maybe you recognize that KCP isn't what you need as your 5th guy going forward and you wan to give Braun a shot, but that doesn't mean you just let talent walk out the door in free agency. When you let a guy go, you want depth in return.

When did MPJ ever live up to his contract before he signed it? In his 2nd year he was 19/7/1 and was horrendous defensively. There is no way that level of play was worth the 25% max and as we’ve seen post-contract signing he’s not been worth that either.

If MPJ were a free agent that year he would’ve easily gotten that contract based on his age and production. Letting him go wouldn’t have made the Nuggets any better, so they almost had to resign him. Same situation with Murray.

he got extended one year earlier. On his actual RFA year he wouldn't have gotten such money

[Ssj16]

I'm not sure it was Booths fault.

He put together the championship team and paid them. Ownership are on the cheap side so he had to keep getting younger.

I mean.. they overpaid MPJ and Murray. They only didn’t pay KCP and Brown right? Both went on to get much bigger contracts than their current play warrants.

MPJ has been paid by Connelly, Murray was obviously an ownership decisions (GMs rarely can have the final say on the top guys and such large commitments). And it's not like they had any chance to replace him.
The couldn't match Indy's offer on Brown.
KCP I still think it was the right choice, it's not like he's been lighting the League on fire.

It's so refreshing to hear someone else acknowledge that the KCP signing wasn't going to save the Nuggets. The dude was underwhelming in the Minnesota series and he's even more underwhelming now.

Saving money on KCP and elevating Braun has been a good move. And even if they had KCP this season, I'm not sure how much he changes the way the season has gone and more importantly, improve their chances of winning it all.

[Alatan]

This is a crazy season. I guess nothing should really surprise us anymore.

I thought there would be some major changes in Denver in the off-season. Didn't expect it right now.

Denver cant make any adjustments at all. They are cap locked and they have no trade assets. Nobody sane wants to trade for Murray, MPJ or Gordon on their contracts.

That leaves them with two possibilities. Trading Braun wont get them a better player than Braun. It might get them a couple of rotation players that dont move the needle.
The only significant move they can do is to trade Jokic. And they shoul!

[turnaroundJ]

sucks that a literal all-time great has to be stuck in a situation like this. wouldn't blame jokic if he asks out, but he probably never will.

we didn't get to see a godfather offer for luka, but i wonder what it would cost to get the joker.

[ConSarnit]

I mean.. they overpaid MPJ and Murray. They only didn’t pay KCP and Brown right? Both went on to get much bigger contracts than their current play warrants.

MPJ has been paid by Connelly, Murray was obviously an ownership decisions (GMs rarely can have the final say on the top guys and such large commitments). And it's not like they had any chance to replace him.
The couldn't match Indy's offer on Brown.
KCP I still think it was the right choice, it's not like he's been lighting the League on fire.

It's so refreshing to hear someone else acknowledge that the KCP signing wasn't going to save the Nuggets. The dude was underwhelming in the Minnesota series and he's even more underwhelming now.

Saving money on KCP and elevating Braun has been a good move. And even if they had KCP this season, I'm not sure how much he changes the way the season has gone and more importantly, improve their chances of winning it all.

Explain how saving money on KCP was a good move. Who did they replace him with? Would paying KCP have caused them to lose Braun?

The only thing that was helped by not paying KCP was the Kroenke’s bank account.

[Special_Puppy]

MPJ has been paid by Connelly, Murray was obviously an ownership decisions (GMs rarely can have the final say on the top guys and such large commitments). And it's not like they had any chance to replace him.
The couldn't match Indy's offer on Brown.
KCP I still think it was the right choice, it's not like he's been lighting the League on fire.

It's so refreshing to hear someone else acknowledge that the KCP signing wasn't going to save the Nuggets. The dude was underwhelming in the Minnesota series and he's even more underwhelming now.

Saving money on KCP and elevating Braun has been a good move. And even if they had KCP this season, I'm not sure how much he changes the way the season has gone and more importantly, improve their chances of winning it all.

Explain how saving money on KCP was a good move. Who did they replace him with? Would paying KCP have caused them to lose Braun?

The only thing that was helped by not paying KCP was the Kroenke’s bank account.

They would have been paying $22 million year to a guy who's a bench player at this stage of his career

[ConSarnit]

Put me in the “the recent draft picks aren’t that good” camp over the “Malone is spiting Booth” camp.

Why?

Braun and Watson were both Booth picks. Malone has no issue playing those guys. Now all of a sudden he’s going to draw the line on Pickett? Isn’t it far more likely he just thought Pickett wasn’t good enough to be a rotation guy this year?

[ConSarnit]

It's so refreshing to hear someone else acknowledge that the KCP signing wasn't going to save the Nuggets. The dude was underwhelming in the Minnesota series and he's even more underwhelming now.

Saving money on KCP and elevating Braun has been a good move. And even if they had KCP this season, I'm not sure how much he changes the way the season has gone and more importantly, improve their chances of winning it all.

Explain how saving money on KCP was a good move. Who did they replace him with? Would paying KCP have caused them to lose Braun?

The only thing that was helped by not paying KCP was the Kroenke’s bank account.

They would have been paying $22 million year to a guy who's a bench player at this stage of his career

They are a contending team with the league’s best player in his prime. They cheaped out, bottom line.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

MPJ has been paid by Connelly, Murray was obviously an ownership decisions (GMs rarely can have the final say on the top guys and such large commitments). And it's not like they had any chance to replace him.
The couldn't match Indy's offer on Brown.
KCP I still think it was the right choice, it's not like he's been lighting the League on fire.

It's so refreshing to hear someone else acknowledge that the KCP signing wasn't going to save the Nuggets. The dude was underwhelming in the Minnesota series and he's even more underwhelming now.

Saving money on KCP and elevating Braun has been a good move. And even if they had KCP this season, I'm not sure how much he changes the way the season has gone and more importantly, improve their chances of winning it all.

Explain how saving money on KCP was a good move. Who did they replace him with? Would paying KCP have caused them to lose Braun?

The only thing that was helped by not paying KCP was the Kroenke’s bank account.

one thing is that there wouldn't have been the same opportunity for Braun to grow so much.
but there some serious team building implications.
they would have been in the 2nd apron with no chances of getting out of it for 3 years, assuming they would have still resigned Gordon and Murray.
that would have meant 3 FRP frozen in consecutive years and impossible to trade, no MLE and tons of restrictions for trades.
at least 1, probably 2, of those picks would have been permanently to the end of the first round.
the absolute necessity of getting out of the 2nd apron in in 2028 to not lose further picks. that would have made extremely difficult to retain Braun and Watson, after 3 years of limited flexibility, letting MPj go for nothing... a complete wasteland with Jokic still only 33.

No doubt they would have looked better in 2025 with KCP, but how much, really? And would have it been worth it?
And I didn't even mention the several hundreds of millions the Kroenkes would have had to spend, on a clearly declining team.
This was going to be Phoenix like situation.

[zero rings]

Explain how saving money on KCP was a good move. Who did they replace him with? Would paying KCP have caused them to lose Braun?

The only thing that was helped by not paying KCP was the Kroenke’s bank account.

They would have been paying $22 million year to a guy who's a bench player at this stage of his career

They are a contending team with the league’s best player in his prime. They cheaped out, bottom line.

KCP doesn’t make this team a contender, and he would be untradable at $22 million. We see his real value now that he’s in Orlando.

The Nuggets need to trade these role players when Jokic bumps up their value, instead of paying them massive contracts. That’s why they’re stuck in no-man’s-land despite having the league’s best player.

[Infinite Llamas]

Booth got canned because he put together an awful team and waisted assets.

Malone got canned because he could never put together a functional offense without Jokic on the court.

no, both got canned because they have been fought each other for almost three years, creating factions in the organization, making decisions just to make the other look bad, and finally affecting the vibes and the spirit in the locker room.

and this team is far from awful.

One of the golden rules of bringing in a new GM is the intention that the new GM will want their own coach. It happens almost every time someone new steps in. It seemed different in Denver as they had won a championship, but the basic premise of the rule remained. Malone was never Booths guy. Plain and simple. This tug of war for three years is the byproduct of a beloved coach who brought the team its first championship and a newly minted GM that has his own vision how to extend the title window.

It was just never going to work because they were never on the same page.

[ChuckChilly]

I'm I crazy to think that Bruce Brown was the domino to all of this.