MVP discussion thread

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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#561 » by NaturalThunder » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:23 am

mopper8 wrote:
NaturalThunder wrote:A pretty methodical 28-8-6 on 10/19 shooting for KD tonight. The LeBron-esque 28-30 point, 6-8 assists, 6-8 rebound games are become fairly routine for Durant. Ever since his awful game in Minnesota/since Westbrook's return, he's been great.

His averages in those 9 games:

29.9 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.4 APG, 1.3 SPG, 3.7 TOV, .479 FG%, .400 3P%, .861 FT%, .634% TS


Beastly

And in that time he's had games of (PTS-REB-AST):

37-8-7
33-13-6
33-6-10
20-7-8
38-8-6
28-6-8

So, 6 of 9 games have been at least 20-6-6; 5 have been at least 28-6-6; and he's had 4 games of at least 33-6-6. He really is evolving into a slightly less efficient, more turnover prone version of LeBron. I wish he'd get the turnovers down closer to 3 per game, but when he's consistently going for 30-7-6 on those shooting percentages, the turnovers aren't quite as noticeable.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#562 » by B-easy » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:28 am

Anybody think wade would still be a MVP candidate if lebron wasn't on the team? I always get the feeling wade is just going through the motions, just letting lebron do his thing.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#563 » by Hero » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:32 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Hero wrote:
1) The MVP race in 2011 was incredibly weak. People going forward are going to find that harder and harder to believe because it's smack dab in the middle of LeBron & Durant's primes, but they had serious problems with their candidacies that year, as did other players. All of this opened the door for an exceptionally weak MVP candidate to come in and win the thing. - See more at: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1281178&start=540#sthash.TRRWuJ4V.dpuf



LeBron and KD primes but what about Anthony Davis. He's in his 2nd year only and absolutely tearing it up. The problem he faces is his team but I can see free agents wanting to go to NO to play with him. I think he's going to be a serious contender in future years.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6583/anthony-davis

He is really killing it right now. It remains to be seen if he can keep up this pace but I envision him as a perennial contender for both DPOY and MVP.


Huh? I've got a total man crush on the Unibrow too, but this has not a lot to do with the 2011 MVP race.


I was responding to this part.

People going forward are going to find that harder and harder to believe because it's smack dab in the middle of LeBron & Durant's primes


I don't think it's just KD and LBJ ahead of the rest for the future anymore with AD in the league. He's a Duncan/Garnett caliber player.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#564 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:42 am

Hero wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Hero wrote:

LeBron and KD primes but what about Anthony Davis. He's in his 2nd year only and absolutely tearing it up. The problem he faces is his team but I can see free agents wanting to go to NO to play with him. I think he's going to be a serious contender in future years.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6583/anthony-davis

He is really killing it right now. It remains to be seen if he can keep up this pace but I envision him as a perennial contender for both DPOY and MVP.


Huh? I've got a total man crush on the Unibrow too, but this has not a lot to do with the 2011 MVP race.


I was responding to this part.

People going forward are going to find that harder and harder to believe because it's smack dab in the middle of LeBron & Durant's primes


I don't think it's just KD and LBJ ahead of the rest for the future anymore with AD in the league. He's a Duncan/Garnett caliber player.


I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think you're misunderstanding my line. I don't mean "we are smack dap in the middle of LeBron & Durant's era", I meant "2011 was smack dab in the middle of the primes of two players much superior to Rose".
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#565 » by MisterWestside » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:23 am

Doctor MJ wrote:What a formal post. :o

I believe I do recollect. Were your feelings based on the fact that you felt the Heat team strategy of optimization left some possibly major blind spots which were a big deal even if no team in 2013 could take advantage of them?


It's more to do with what SideshowBob said in his reply, although I also thought about their team philosophy as well.

I won't repeat the already sound points that have been made about James with regards to the 2011 MVP. The 2011 Heat was quite possibly the greatest unrefined basketball team in history; they nearly won a title with James, Wade, and Bosh unsettled in their roles (How can James and Wade both be slashers and playmakers on the same team? Does Bosh still play with his back to the basket? etc.); fringe peripheral parts (remember that the likes of Arroyo, Bibby, and Anthony logged significant minutes for that team at points during the regular season and playoffs); and a head coach who was still figuring out how to make everything work. It was literally simple PnR Bosh/James, PnR Bosh/Wade, spam-spam-spam, wait other teams are catching on so we have to have a counter for that, we don't have a counter for that, let's iso James or Wade since PnR doesn't work, spam-spam-spam. Repeat until the Mavericks blew up that strategy in the Finals. I'm glad the Heat didn't win that title, because there would be no incentive to, you know, construct an actual team.

Now? James plays more like a big man instead of the perimeter player that he was (and needed to be) in Cleveland. Wade stops trying to do everything and gets his baskets as an effective slashing sidekick. Bosh morphs into a potent midrange floor spacer. Snipers on the floor everywhere. Andersen replaces Anthony as the high-energy big that can actually do something on offense. Spoelstra replaces a boring offense with a balanced, nuanced, and creative offense that uses all of its pieces on the floor in some manner. Even Rashard Lewis can step in when needed, and kick some ass. Lots of people deserve credit for their historic pace, and simply putting one name next to a team ORtg misses the point a bit IMHO. Zach Lowe did just write an article about the importance of the basketball ecosystem when he wrote about Ellis's renaissance in Dallas. We statisticians still have a lot to learn about the sport, and we must eat the delicious crow that is served up on our plates.

James gets his due credit for the work he put into his game since 2011 (and as documented by SideshowBob). But this isn't just about James. Not by any means. I would love for a similar phenomenon to take place in Oklahoma City with Durant and Westbrook, but Presti and Brooks aren't exactly inspiring confidence with their recent GM moves and coaching.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#566 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:44 am

MisterWestside wrote:James gets his due credit for the work he put into his game since 2011 (and as documented by SideshowBob). But this isn't just about James. Not by any means. I would love for a similar phenomenon to take place in Oklahoma City with Durant and Westbrook, but Presti and Brooks aren't exactly inspiring confidence with their recent GM moves and coaching.


You make good points. I feel like the last paragraph draws me into a response the most:

-You're absolutely right that LeBron doesn't deserve all the credit, but he did make more substantial changes to his game than most superstars ever do mid-prime. Certainly he didn't architect all those changes himself, and those who did deserve praise, but I don't feel any great need to say that diminishes his accomplishment.

-You're absolutely right about OKC. They like Miami both had relatively primitive offensive strategies that were basically relying on extreme talent to just overpower the other team. But while Miami truly was willing to risk what they had and build something that could really sing, OKC feels like they've stagnated on multiple levels - with the other major component their two year upgrade from Harden to Martin to ??? Of course money issues were a big part of that, but had OKC been more willing to build a novel offense based on the talent they had, making as much use as possible of a trio of 1st Option level players, maybe then they don't lose Harden.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#567 » by Nyk4lyfe » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:02 pm

KingCuban wrote:Paul George's numbers are not those of someone who deserves an MVP.

They are perfect second option type numbers on a title team but the only reason he is in the discussion is because the Pacers are 10-1 right now.


Paul George is a second option??? So far he is a superstar
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#568 » by kingkirk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:29 pm

Nyk4lyfe wrote:
KingCuban wrote:Paul George's numbers are not those of someone who deserves an MVP.

They are perfect second option type numbers on a title team but the only reason he is in the discussion is because the Pacers are 10-1 right now.


Paul George is a second option??? So far he is a superstar


To me, he is not a superstar and he is the perfect second option. I'm not convinced that a team lead by Paul George can win a title.

That may change in several seasons time if he continues to develop but he still needs a heap of work on the offensive end before i put him into the superstar bracket.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#569 » by MisterWestside » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:51 pm

KingCuban wrote:To me, he is not a superstar and he is the perfect second option. I'm not convinced that a team lead by Paul George can win a title.

That may change in several seasons time if he continues to develop but he still needs a heap of work on the offensive end before i put him into the superstar bracket.


Not a superstar? Agreed. But just because you're not a superstar doesn't mean that you're a second-option. George is currently in the upper-tier of primary offensive players this season (min. 24% usg; 7th in usage, 14th in ORtg). That's someone who can most certainly be the main guy on a team, if you don't already play James or Durant on your roster.

Can he sustain or even build on that? Should be interesting.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#570 » by kingkirk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:24 pm

MisterWestside wrote:Not a superstar? Agreed. But just because you're not a superstar doesn't mean that you're a second-option. George is currently in the upper-tier of primary offensive players this season (min. 24% usg; 7th in usage, 14th in ORtg). That's someone who can most certainly be the main guy on a team, if you don't already play James or Durant on your roster.

Can he sustain or even build on that? Should be interesting.


When i say he isn't a 1st option, i mean in an ideal world.

To me, and what we've seen from recent NBA champions, George is closer to the second options of teams on current production than he is a 1st option.

He isn't someone who at this point can routinely go off for 30 points a night. His skill set just isn't there yet.

He is the 1st option for the Pacers, so technically he is, but i'm not sure if a team that has George as its 1st option can win a title unless growth is experienced from PG and those around him as the season progresses.

No question he has improved his game, but i still can't help but feel that he needs to go to the next level towards the 25+ PPG on quality efficiency if i'm going to consider him a superstar and a championship level 1st option.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#571 » by AlciG » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:49 am

KingCuban wrote:No question he has improved his game, but i still can't help but feel that he needs to go to the next level towards the 25+ PPG on quality efficiency if i'm going to consider him a superstar and a championship level 1st option.


So basically if he keeps up his current production?
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#572 » by kingkirk » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:53 am

AlciG wrote:
KingCuban wrote:No question he has improved his game, but i still can't help but feel that he needs to go to the next level towards the 25+ PPG on quality efficiency if i'm going to consider him a superstar and a championship level 1st option.


So basically if he keeps up his current production?


But he isn't a 25ppg scorer and will be closer to 20 when the season is done than 25+.

I'm not expecting him to keep it up at this rate.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#573 » by AlciG » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:55 am

KingCuban wrote:
AlciG wrote:
KingCuban wrote:No question he has improved his game, but i still can't help but feel that he needs to go to the next level towards the 25+ PPG on quality efficiency if i'm going to consider him a superstar and a championship level 1st option.


So basically if he keeps up his current production?


But he isn't a 25ppg scorer and will be closer to 20 when the season is done than 25+.

I'm not expecting him to keep it up at this rate.


Ahh cool thanks for that info... I didn't know that as I can't see into the future
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#574 » by kingkirk » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:56 am

AlciG wrote:Ahh cool thanks for that info... I didn't know that as I can't see into the future


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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#575 » by Onus » Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:39 am

Wow the warriors look like ass on the offensive end without Curry. About to go 0-3 without steph
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#576 » by xxSnEaKyPxx » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:04 am

KingCuban wrote:When i say he isn't a 1st option, i mean in an ideal world.

To me, and what we've seen from recent NBA champions, George is closer to the second options of teams on current production than he is a 1st option.

He isn't someone who at this point can routinely go off for 30 points a night. His skill set just isn't there yet.

He is the 1st option for the Pacers, so technically he is, but i'm not sure if a team that has George as its 1st option can win a title unless growth is experienced from PG and those around him as the season progresses.

No question he has improved his game, but i still can't help but feel that he needs to go to the next level towards the 25+ PPG on quality efficiency if i'm going to consider him a superstar and a championship level 1st option.

I will start by saying Paul George is not going to win MVP this year or even in the future in my opinion.

That being said I do feel like you have him pegged wrong in certain things. Paul George is most definitely capable of going off for 30+ on any given night. The Pacers simply do not need him to. We have 6 other players(when Granger returns) who will share the scoring load with him. That being said, George has averaged 17 PPG in the second half this year. That was before tonight when I believe he had around 20. The Pacers have been down at halftime in 9 of our 12 games so far. Paul George just turns it up in the second half and has been amazing(outside of second Bulls game). He has added a midrange jumper that is deadly.

Like I said, he isn't going to win MVP, but to say he can't be a first option on a Championship team is silly to me. Had he been the 1st pick in the 2010 draft I feel like people would have a much different perception of him.

George is a late bloomer and he just continues to work hard and get better. The guy is a star, maybe not a superstar, but a legit star that can and will put the team on his back when he needs to.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#577 » by DreDay » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:59 am

If Curry comes back and Warriors become a great offensive team he should jump right into these talks. I've seen pathetic Warrior teams but nothing like the 3 games without Curry this year, which was a bottom 1 offense in the league.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#578 » by VoodooPriest » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:18 am

B-easy wrote:Anybody think wade would still be a MVP candidate if lebron wasn't on the team? I always get the feeling wade is just going through the motions, just letting lebron do his thing.


Wade even with LeBron carrying the main load struggles to be entirely healthy for even a three-month stretch of a season. Without LeBron, Wade carrying the main load? He breaks down before the All-Star break, limps the final stretch, puts up valiant but underwhelming Playoff performances as the Heat fall in the second-round, ECF at best. Lather-rinse-repeat each season.

This is nothing against him, but part of the reason I believe he 'stepped back' prior to 2011/12 is because he simply didn't have the durability to carry a team and stay healthy simultaneously.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#579 » by kingkirk » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:20 am

DGrangeRx33 wrote:I will start by saying Paul George is not going to win MVP this year or even in the future in my opinion.

That being said I do feel like you have him pegged wrong in certain things. Paul George is most definitely capable of going off for 30+ on any given night. The Pacers simply do not need him to. We have 6 other players(when Granger returns) who will share the scoring load with him. That being said, George has averaged 17 PPG in the second half this year. That was before tonight when I believe he had around 20. The Pacers have been down at halftime in 9 of our 12 games so far. Paul George just turns it up in the second half and has been amazing(outside of second Bulls game). He has added a midrange jumper that is deadly.

Like I said, he isn't going to win MVP, but to say he can't be a first option on a Championship team is silly to me. Had he been the 1st pick in the 2010 draft I feel like people would have a much different perception of him.

George is a late bloomer and he just continues to work hard and get better. The guy is a star, maybe not a superstar, but a legit star that can and will put the team on his back when he needs to.


I'm not trying to diminish George or trying to put him down for no good reason but if im being honest in where i see him in their NBA landscape, its in the tier below guys like Paul, Durant & James.

Granted, i don't have many guys at that level anymore with Rose being hurt, Wade, Dirk & Kobe getting older and Howard being a mental midget, but at this point, i can't put George in that bracket.

I just personally see him as a great second option on an idea championship team like i do with Harden, Westbrook or Love.
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Re: MVP discussion thread 

Post#580 » by MisterWestside » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:38 am

KingCuban wrote:To me, and what we've seen from recent NBA champions, George is closer to the second options of teams on current production than he is a 1st option.

He isn't someone who at this point can routinely go off for 30 points a night. His skill set just isn't there yet.

He is the 1st option for the Pacers, so technically he is, but i'm not sure if a team that has George as its 1st option can win a title unless growth is experienced from PG and those around him as the season progresses.

No question he has improved his game, but i still can't help but feel that he needs to go to the next level towards the 25+ PPG on quality efficiency if i'm going to consider him a superstar and a championship level 1st option.


I hear what you're saying and you bring up valid points. But there's more to the game than scoring 30 per. Consider that the Spurs were a missed rebound away from being champs in 2013, and their go-to guy in the playoffs barely averaged more than 20 points a game.

If George can keep up his play and the Pacers match with their smothering defense, they can compete with anyone for the title. Although the Heat's own torrid offensive pace should make them the prohibitive favorites, again.

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