Who's the G.O.A.T. ?

[ShaqAttac]

I wasn’t referring to Hondo. I was referring to Cousy who won league mvp and Heinsohn who was ROY. Also Pippen was with Barkley and Hakeem and lost in round 1 which was two mvp players while winning it all with MJ year before.

oh. so two players he literally won a bunch of chips without? crazy. which one of cousy and heinsohn was on the team when he beat a superteam in 69?

Hondo had a better PER and had double the win shares as Russell in 1969 in the playoffs. Bailey Howell had a higher PER and WS as well. Not to mention someone else won finals mvp.

P E R

that finals mvp missed the playoffs without russ carryin him

[NZB2323]

oh. so two players he literally won a bunch of chips without? crazy. which one of cousy and heinsohn was on the team when he beat a superteam in 69?

Hondo had a better PER and had double the win shares as Russell in 1969 in the playoffs. Bailey Howell had a higher PER and WS as well. Not to mention someone else won finals mvp.

P E R

that finals mvp missed the playoffs without russ carryin him

Jerry West won Finals MVP.

But Hondo did win 2 Championships without Russell.

In the 69 Finals Hondo averaged 28, 11, and 4 on 46/85 shooting splits. Russell averaged 9, 21, and 5 on 40/58 shooting splits.

[Chanel Bomber]

and? 1969 was 13 yrs later. russell won a bunch without hondo. Jordan didnt win **** without pip n jackson.

Maybe that's because he spent most of his career with Pippen and over half of his career in Chicago with Phil?

Unless you expected MJ to be peak MJ since his rookie season. I don't think that's a fair expectation, so how are we holding that against him?

he prob had more help in 90 n 95 than russ did in 69. and russ still beat a superteam while he was bout to retire. mj didnt win either.

The Bulls were the superteam as soon as they won their first championship up until they were disbanded. How are we holding that against them? Did they need to be worse and have lower expectations placed upon and then win as the underdog to validate their greatness? I don't see how this argument is pertinent tbh.

[Taj FTW]

Hondo had a better PER and had double the win shares as Russell in 1969 in the playoffs. Bailey Howell had a higher PER and WS as well. Not to mention someone else won finals mvp.

P E R

that finals mvp missed the playoffs without russ carryin him

Jerry West won Finals MVP.

But Hondo did win 2 Championships without Russell.

In the 69 Finals Hondo averaged 28, 11, and 4 on 46/85 shooting splits. Russell averaged 9, 21, and 5 on 40/58 shooting splits.

A mere roleplayer Hondo was! My favorite part is that he keeps doubling down that Havlicek was just a roleplayer

[ShaqAttac]

Maybe that's because he spent most of his career with Pippen and over half of his career in Chicago with Phil?

Unless you expected MJ to be peak MJ since his rookie season. I don't think that's a fair expectation, so how are we holding that against him?

he prob had more help in 90 n 95 than russ did in 69. and russ still beat a superteam while he was bout to retire. mj didnt win either.

The Bulls were the superteam as soon as they won their first championship up until they were disbanded. How are we holding that against them? Did they need to be worse and have lower expectations placed upon and then win as the underdog to validate their greatness? I don't see how this argument is pertinent tbh.

coz they were only a superteam with stupid good help while russ led a BETTER SUPERTEAM that kept winnin even when the help wasn't super against other superteams

bulls didnt win in 94 n 95 and were already really good when they didnt win in 90. celtics only lost when russ missed half a series n when russ faced a goat-team in his 1st year as a player-coach

u really gon tell me what mj did is as good as what russ did? if mj made his teams the best in the league every year no matter what like russ did, then maybe mj's expectations woulda been higher

[ShaqAttac]

Hondo had a better PER and had double the win shares as Russell in 1969 in the playoffs. Bailey Howell had a higher PER and WS as well. Not to mention someone else won finals mvp.

P E R

that finals mvp missed the playoffs without russ carryin him

Jerry West won Finals MVP.

But Hondo did win 2 Championships without Russell.

In the 69 Finals Hondo averaged 28, 11, and 4 on 46/85 shooting splits. Russell averaged 9, 21, and 5 on 40/58 shooting splits.

he won 2 championships when he and his team got alot better than they were in 69. cool slashline tho. im sure those 28 points was why the celtics won 11-rings on D not O. talk about **** stupid.

[mowcrowbar]

Victor Khryapa.

[twyzted]

Well seems we can make this official, even with pc board coming Jordan has 60% of the votes.

[NZB2323]

P E R

that finals mvp missed the playoffs without russ carryin him

Jerry West won Finals MVP.

But Hondo did win 2 Championships without Russell.

In the 69 Finals Hondo averaged 28, 11, and 4 on 46/85 shooting splits. Russell averaged 9, 21, and 5 on 40/58 shooting splits.

he won 2 championships when he and his team got alot better than they were in 69. cool slashline tho. im sure those 28 points was why the celtics won 11-rings on D not O. talk about **** stupid.

You need offense and defense to win a championship. Shaq averaged around 28 ppg when the Lakers threepeated.

Russell is probably the greatest defensive player of all time, but he played with great offensive players. Bob Cousy won a MVP. Hondo won Finals MVP.

[70sFan]

Jerry West won Finals MVP.

But Hondo did win 2 Championships without Russell.

In the 69 Finals Hondo averaged 28, 11, and 4 on 46/85 shooting splits. Russell averaged 9, 21, and 5 on 40/58 shooting splits.

he won 2 championships when he and his team got alot better than they were in 69. cool slashline tho. im sure those 28 points was why the celtics won 11-rings on D not O. talk about **** stupid.

You need offense and defense to win a championship. Shaq averaged around 28 ppg when the Lakers threepeated.

Russell is probably the greatest defensive player of all time, but he played with great offensive players. Bob Cousy won a MVP. Hondo won Finals MVP.

Yeah, mentioning Hondo and Cousy in the same post you compare Russell to Shaq, while Shaq got all those titles with a player who was significantly better than any player Russell played with. You also said that you need both offense and defense, but Shaq never provided a heavy lifting on defense.

We have seen Russell winning without Cousy. We have seen him winning without Havlicek. We haven't seen Shaq winning without any superstar on his team.

[NZB2323]

and? 1969 was 13 yrs later. russell won a bunch without hondo. Jordan didnt win **** without pip n jackson.

Maybe that's because he spent most of his career with Pippen and over half of his career in Chicago with Phil?

Unless you expected MJ to be peak MJ since his rookie season. I don't think that's a fair expectation, so how are we holding that against him?

he prob had more help in 90 n 95 than russ did in 69. and russ still beat a superteam while he was bout to retire. mj didnt win either.

1990 playoffs:
Pippen: 19, 7, and 7, 57 TS%, 18.7 PER
1 other teammate scored double digits.

1969 playoffs:
Havlicek: 25, 10, and 6, 54 TS%, 19.5 PER
5 other teammates scored double digits.

1995 playoffs:
Pippen: 18, 9, and 6, 55 TS%, 18.9 PER
2 other teammates scored double digits.

Havlicek won 2 championships without Russell. Pippen won 0 championships without Jordan. Havlicek has more Finals MVPs, all-stars, all-NBA 1st teams, and all-NBA 2nd teams. Pippen has more all-Defensive First teams, but they didn't have all-Defensive First teams for the first 6 years of Havlicek's career.

To me the year that's really impressive for Jordan is 98. Pippen had surgery during the season and only played in 44 games. Rodman was an aging alcaholic who was doing WWE during the Finals who washed out of the league afterwards. The 98 Bulls are the oldest team to ever win a championship, and we've seen how hard it is for an old team to win it all with the 2022 LA Lakers and Lebron's tweet that he deleted where he asked people who keep talking about how his team was too old and to keep up that same energy during the season.

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals is the only Finals game where a player outscored all of his teammates. Jordan had 45 and his teammates scored 42. When Russell won game 7 of the 1969 Finals he scored 6 points and his teammates scored 102. I know defense is important also, but Jordan made the all-NBA defensive 1st team in 1998 and stole the ball from Malone at the end.

[NZB2323]

he won 2 championships when he and his team got alot better than they were in 69. cool slashline tho. im sure those 28 points was why the celtics won 11-rings on D not O. talk about **** stupid.

You need offense and defense to win a championship. Shaq averaged around 28 ppg when the Lakers threepeated.

Russell is probably the greatest defensive player of all time, but he played with great offensive players. Bob Cousy won a MVP. Hondo won Finals MVP.

Yeah, mentioning Hondo and Cousy in the same post you compare Russell to Shaq, while Shaq got all those titles with a player who was significantly better than any player Russell played with. You also said that you need both offense and defense, but Shaq never provided a heavy lifting on defense.

We have seen Russell winning without Cousy. We have seen him winning without Havlicek. We haven't seen Shaq winning without any superstar on his team.

I wasn't comparing Russell to Shaq; I was saying that offense is important to winning a championship and a player who scores 28 ppg during a playoff run is a significant contributor. ShaqAttac keeps downplaying Havlicek as a role player and saying that Russell beat a superteam in 69 by himself so I was making the point that Havlicek scored about the same number of points in the 69 playoff run as Shaq did in the 2000-2002 playoff runs.

I have Russell ranked ahead of Shaq all time. I have Shaq ranked ahead of Havlicek. My only point is that Havlicek wasn't a role player.

[70sFan]

You need offense and defense to win a championship. Shaq averaged around 28 ppg when the Lakers threepeated.

Russell is probably the greatest defensive player of all time, but he played with great offensive players. Bob Cousy won a MVP. Hondo won Finals MVP.

Yeah, mentioning Hondo and Cousy in the same post you compare Russell to Shaq, while Shaq got all those titles with a player who was significantly better than any player Russell played with. You also said that you need both offense and defense, but Shaq never provided a heavy lifting on defense.

We have seen Russell winning without Cousy. We have seen him winning without Havlicek. We haven't seen Shaq winning without any superstar on his team.

I wasn't comparing Russell to Shaq; I was saying that offense is important to winning a championship and a player who scores 28 ppg during a playoff run is a significant contributor. ShaqAttac keeps downplaying Havlicek as a role player and saying that Russell beat a superteam in 69 by himself so I was making the point that Havlicek scored about the same number of points in the 69 playoff run as Shaq did in the 2000-2002 playoff runs.

I have Russell ranked ahead of Shaq all time.

Havlicek wasn't a roleplayer, certainly not. He couldn't lead Celtics to the playoffs without another star next to him though, I think that's his point - not that Russell won the title by himself. No player ever won the title by himself.

[JordansBulls]

Victor Khryapa.

Who?

[Fantastik_Goat]

*260 playoff games.

lebron has now been the clear-cut best player in the finals 8 times and is still the best in the world in his 17th/18th season, east... west... don't matter, lebron is a one man dynasty.

Now do it against KAJ

[Lalouie]

who's under 30

born in the millenium
born in the last 30yrs
born in the last 40yrs
born in the last 50yrs
born in the last 60yrs
born in the last 70yrs

[jc23]

When people ask me who the GOAT is i just give them a link to this poll.

[ShaqAttac]

Yeah, mentioning Hondo and Cousy in the same post you compare Russell to Shaq, while Shaq got all those titles with a player who was significantly better than any player Russell played with. You also said that you need both offense and defense, but Shaq never provided a heavy lifting on defense.

We have seen Russell winning without Cousy. We have seen him winning without Havlicek. We haven't seen Shaq winning without any superstar on his team.

I wasn't comparing Russell to Shaq; I was saying that offense is important to winning a championship and a player who scores 28 ppg during a playoff run is a significant contributor. ShaqAttac keeps downplaying Havlicek as a role player and saying that Russell beat a superteam in 69 by himself so I was making the point that Havlicek scored about the same number of points in the 69 playoff run as Shaq did in the 2000-2002 playoff runs.

I have Russell ranked ahead of Shaq all time.

Havlicek wasn't a roleplayer, certainly not. He couldn't lead Celtics to the playoffs without another star next to him though, I think that's his point - not that Russell won the title by himself. No player ever won the title by himself.

they werent even as good as the mj-less bulls in 71 right? the "russ had way more help" **** is just a stupid excuse

[iggymcfrack]

Well seems we can make this official, even with pc board coming Jordan has 60% of the votes.

Most of these votes were from three years ago. I bet a new poll from scratch would have them closer now that LeBron’s had a few more productive seasons and set the scoring record.

[mowcrowbar]

Victor Khryapa.

Who?

The GOAT