DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[El Alonzo scowl]

I just think is insane that the best defender this year is not going to win bacially because of minutes play.

JJJ miss 24 games and average 27mpg a game because of the Grizzlies short minute coaching.

When you look at the stats and check the eye test he is way better then both Mobley and can do alot more then what Lopez does.

Last year he was 3rd and it looks he will be 3rd or 2nd this year.

Dude is going to be overdue to win one since he is just 22.

Did you think it was insane last year when Bam didn't get it cause he missed too many games? What's insane to me is the media being all over JJJ's nuts and ready to hand it to him despite not playing enough yet they snubbed Bam last year for the same reason.

[Statlanta]

Someone posted his in favor of Mobley but it just shows how great JJJ’s case is even with his lack of minutes

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[brutalitops]

Glad Evans being recognised. Have him third personally

[srhcan]

Both Simmons and Russilo voted for Mobley

thats some biased voting. Mobley is firmly behind Lopez and JJJ

[Dacost]

I just think is insane that the best defender this year is not going to win bacially because of minutes play.

JJJ miss 24 games and average 27mpg a game because of the Grizzlies short minute coaching.

When you look at the stats and check the eye test he is way better then both Mobley and can do alot more then what Lopez does.

Last year he was 3rd and it looks he will be 3rd or 2nd this year.

Dude is going to be overdue to win one since he is just 22.

Did you think it was insane last year when Bam didn't get it cause he missed too many games? What's insane to me is the media being all over JJJ's nuts and ready to hand it to him despite not playing enough yet they snubbed Bam last year for the same reason.

Yes I though that was insane too Bam should have won it last year.

There needs to be minutes limit set and a rule to determine it.

Writers hype up players even if they don't deserve it Simmons is a good example of that he made his vote for Mobley and show it just because that's his guy.

[sircrocodile7]

Seems to me there might be a betting conspiracy. Lopez and JJJ are the absolute betting favourites, and in one night Mobley takes the lead. Alright , I am not sure what is going on with these awards behind the scenes.

[JonFromVA]

It's always been hard for voters to ignore the best defender on the best defensive team.

I've got to assume it also helps Mobley's case that's he's been a defensive savant from the moment he's entered the league. He's not just parked under the rim swatting shots, he's not just swooping in as a help defender to block shots ... he's doing it all from the paint to the 3pt line and he's doing it all without fouling and without initiating contact.

And now he officially has the most important qualification.

[Roger Murdock]

Both Simmons and Russilo voted for Mobley

thats some biased voting. Mobley is firmly behind Lopez and JJJ

Before this year Garland and Mitchell were considered traffic cones and the team has the #1 ranked defense. Mobley is S tier at rotating onto any player, the best big in the NBA at guarding the perimeter, and switches and rotates seemlessly.

What he doesn't have is two of the best defenders in the league around him and a defense that filters all shots to him at the rim. He also doesnt have the luxury at jumping at everything and fouling a bunch because we need his minutes. If he chased for blocks he'd probably have better odds of winning but he'd certainly be a less impactful player.

[toooskies]

Yes, the Mobley narrative was pretty late, but that's significantly due to him having to overcome some awful 3-point shooting luck from players he wasn't guarding early in the year. Early in the season (while JJJ was out injured) randomness stuck Mobley in a pretty deep hole so that his stats didn't shine as bright till the law of large numbers helped him out a bit-- although on/off numbers still don't shine as much as JJJ and Lopez. The narrative couldn't start because the numbers looked off to anyone who takes just a cursory glance.

The eye test has been there all year though.

[Pantsman]

Mobley should be the vote. I can accept JJJ he’s been legit. But brook Lopez? How many times do we need to see these flat footed bigs get killed on the outside and in close games before we stop taking them serious as DPOY candidates?

[cupcakesnake]

Mobley should be the vote. I can accept JJJ he’s been legit. But brook Lopez? How many times do we need to see these flat footed bigs get killed on the outside and in close games before we stop taking them serious as DPOY candidates?

I really can't imagine watching many Milwaukee Bucks games this year if you think Brook Lopez is getting killed on the outside.

I have plenty to say about the misconceptions around drop bigs in the playoff series but I probably say it too much at this point. Drop bigs only get killed when a defensive system relies on them as the sole source of rim protection. Any defender can be schemed against to get them out of the paint. Teams with multiple rim protectors never have their bigs get killed in the playoffs. Teams like Utah with Rudy, Phoenix with Ayton, teams that go small around a solo big, are vulnerable to the defensive scheme broken. This tells us more about defensive scheme construction than it does about the defensive abilities of the individual player in question.

[JonFromVA]

Seems like some of the voters want someone flashier than Brook and probably felt they had that in JJJ until they noticed how many games and minutes he's actually played. Draymond like Brook has a strong case based on defensive uplift, but the Warrior's have the 17th ranked defense and the Bucks are 4th which is great - but not top 2.

[bisme37]

Celtics ended the year #2 in defensive rating but most articles I've seen only have Derrick White making an All Defense team. I want to be grumpy about it but honestly I don't know who on the C's should make it aside from saying most of the team should make it, which obviously won't happen lol.

It would be Timelord if he wasn't such a Part-time Lord. Smart was DPOY last year but his defense hasn't really stood out this year by his standards. Tatum is an incredible defender but I doubt voters really notice. Etc.

Anyone have an opinion on this? Bucks are getting 3 all defense guys most likely and the Cs defense has been better.

[yoyoboy]

Celtics ended the year #2 in defensive rating but most articles I've seen only have Derrick White making an All Defense team. I want to be grumpy about it but honestly I don't know who on the C's should make it aside from saying most of the team should make it, which obviously won't happen lol.

It would be Timelord if he wasn't such a Part-time Lord. Smart was DPOY last year but his defense hasn't really stood out this year by his standards. Tatum is an incredible defender but I doubt voters really notice. Etc.

Anyone have an opinion on this? Bucks are getting 3 all defense guys most likely and the Cs defense has been better.

If it makes you feel any better we’re #1 by a good margin and we’ll maybe get Mobley and that’s definitely it. I actually don’t think we should get anyone else either. Allen is the closest and has been pretty good, but there are probably others who have been better.

I don’t think Giannis deserves to make an All-Defensive Team this year. For the Celtics, I’d definitely have Derrick White. And then after that, Rob Williams would probably be on one if he played more minutes. Tatum is a contender for my 2nd Team for sure, but competition for the forwards is stiff with Draymond, Anunoby, Davis, Claxton, McDaniels, etc. It’s tough because Boston has a lot of good defenders across the board with those guys I just mentioned, Smart even in a down year, Brown, Horford, Grant Williams… You guys don’t really play any weak defenders so it seems like it could be more of a collective team effort thing.

[BostonCouchGM]

Pretty sure Mobley was on their team last season unless you’re referring to the 20/21 season.

Yes, 2021 season means 2020-2021. Just like this is the 2023 season.

But the improvement could also be due to Love being off the floor and Allen there for the full season.

From the time of acquiring Allen until the end of the season, the Cavs’ defense actually ranked 28th in the league, so it was actually worse afterwards. And this is a 51/72 game sample size.

Love played 620 minutes in the 20-21 season. And 821 minutes this season with the Cavs lol. So once again, you probably should have actually done a little research before just throwing out guesses.

Giving most of the credit to Mobley is generous and convenient. And just because things go against the narrative that you’re trying to spread doesn’t make it “noise”. Maybe the reason he contests so many threes is because guys so easily create separation to shoot them while he’s guarding them because he’s not a great perimeter defender like I said?

I mean then unfortunately you just don’t seem to be educated on how noisy these 5-versus-5 lineup stats actually are. Once again you’re just throwing out guesses and it makes it obvious you haven’t watched much of Mobley or delved into anything beyond the surface level of the stats. I guess Kevin Love, who can’t even move to contest threes anymore, is a better perimeter defender than Mobley because opponents shot 2% worse from three with him on versus off. And Mobley must have all of a sudden just become a much worse 3P defender this year compared to last year, right? Opponents shot 6% better from three with Mobley on the versus off this year but it was only 1.5% last year.

He sags a lot against quicker guys and in the PnR because he’s incapable of keeping up. Again, it’s a problem most 4/5 have so it’s not an indictment on Mobley. But it does show that he’s not any different and shouldn’t be viewed as a great perimeter defender which should take him out of the running for DPOY. “But what about Gobert?” Well, the difference is he was just that much more dominant down low due to his strength, when he was winning DPOY.

Maybe you should ask yourself if your eye test is potentially wrong considering you seem to think Mobley and Allen both can’t guard the perimeter or the PnR, and Garland and Mitchell are poor defenders at the point of attack, yet somehow the Cavs had the #1 defense in the league by a pretty clear margin. You do see how these things can’t possibly add up, right?

Their guards and wings can be more aggressive and take chances resulting in steals and challenging shooters because they have Mobley and Allen to clean up after their messes. Mitchell is a solid defender as is Okoro. It's really that simple. Allen and Mobley are elite defenders in the paint. Why can't your eyes see how bad Allen, Mobley (and most every big in the NBA) are in the PnR? Or how much room they have to give guards/wings to shoot when switched onto them (Allen much worse than Mobley) because they're afraid they'll blow by them?

Again, Mobley is a great overall defender. It's just not DPOY level imho YET since he struggles on the perimeter. It's not like he's a liability. He's just not special on the perimeter like he is down low. I think it's even more laughable that Lopez is in the discussion for DPOY since he's even worse than Mobley in that regard. JJJ, imho, is a better perimeter defender on switches. And since he has led the league in blocks now, in back to back seasons, 2 X what Mobley has btw, he would get my vote despite the missed games. JJ is such a good defender that he should be in the all-nba conversation since his offense isn't too shabby either but he's not a Celtic so the media doesn't stan for him like they do Jaylen Brown and Derrick White. Mobley definitely deserves to make all-defense though. No doubt. And he has DPOY potential but he'll need to clean up his perimeter defense first.

[KazuoOda]

Pretty sure Mobley was on their team last season unless you’re referring to the 20/21 season.

Yes, 2021 season means 2020-2021. Just like this is the 2023 season.

But the improvement could also be due to Love being off the floor and Allen there for the full season.

From the time of acquiring Allen until the end of the season, the Cavs’ defense actually ranked 28th in the league, so it was actually worse afterwards. And this is a 51/72 game sample size.

Love played 620 minutes in the 20-21 season. And 821 minutes this season with the Cavs lol. So once again, you probably should have actually done a little research before just throwing out guesses.

Giving most of the credit to Mobley is generous and convenient. And just because things go against the narrative that you’re trying to spread doesn’t make it “noise”. Maybe the reason he contests so many threes is because guys so easily create separation to shoot them while he’s guarding them because he’s not a great perimeter defender like I said?

I mean then unfortunately you just don’t seem to be educated on how noisy these 5-versus-5 lineup stats actually are. Once again you’re just throwing out guesses and it makes it obvious you haven’t watched much of Mobley or delved into anything beyond the surface level of the stats. I guess Kevin Love, who can’t even move to contest threes anymore, is a better perimeter defender than Mobley because opponents shot 2% worse from three with him on versus off. And Mobley must have all of a sudden just become a much worse 3P defender this year compared to last year, right? Opponents shot 6% better from three with Mobley on the versus off this year but it was only 1.5% last year.

He sags a lot against quicker guys and in the PnR because he’s incapable of keeping up. Again, it’s a problem most 4/5 have so it’s not an indictment on Mobley. But it does show that he’s not any different and shouldn’t be viewed as a great perimeter defender which should take him out of the running for DPOY. “But what about Gobert?” Well, the difference is he was just that much more dominant down low due to his strength, when he was winning DPOY.

Maybe you should ask yourself if your eye test is potentially wrong considering you seem to think Mobley and Allen both can’t guard the perimeter or the PnR, and Garland and Mitchell are poor defenders at the point of attack, yet somehow the Cavs had the #1 defense in the league by a pretty clear margin. You do see how these things can’t possibly add up, right?

Their guards and wings can be more aggressive and take chances resulting in steals and challenging shooters because they have Mobley and Allen to clean up after their messes. Mitchell is a solid defender as is Okoro. It's really that simple. Allen and Mobley are elite defenders in the paint. Why can't your eyes see how bad Allen, Mobley (and most every big in the NBA) are in the PnR? Or how much room they have to give guards/wings to shoot when switched onto them (Allen much worse than Mobley) because they're afraid they'll blow by them?

Again, Mobley is a great overall defender. It's just not DPOY level imho YET since he struggles on the perimeter. It's not like he's a liability. He's just not special on the perimeter like he is down low. I think it's even more laughable that Lopez is in the discussion for DPOY since he's even worse than Mobley in that regard. JJJ, imho, is a better perimeter defender on switches. And since he has led the league in blocks now, in back to back seasons, 2 X what Mobley has btw, he would get my vote despite the missed games. JJ is such a good defender that he should be in the all-nba conversation since his offense isn't too shabby either but he's not a Celtic so the media doesn't stan for him like they do Jaylen Brown and Derrick White. Mobley definitely deserves to make all-defense though. No doubt. And he has DPOY potential but he'll need to clean up his perimeter defense first.

One of Mobleys specialties is guarding the perimeter....
He's also number ONE in contested 3 point attempts.

[JonFromVA]

One of Mobleys specialties is guarding the perimeter....
He's also number ONE in contested 3 point attempts.

Mobley plays very fundamental perimeter defense for a big. It would be more impressive if he face guarded guys and blocked 3pt shots, but he gives space so he can protect against the drive and still get a hand up in a shooter's face.

This is a favored statistical based strategy that can go pretty hay wire on a game to game basis.

IMO, there are times he should mix up his strategy, but that's nuance.

[BostonCouchGM]

k, so I'm watching this CLE/NY game to see how supposedly special Mobley is. Again, I know he's a very good defender down low and mostly a solid team defender. I'm specifically talking about his porous perimeter defense and how that is being overlooked since he's a DPOY candidate. And yes, he may be no worse than other bigs on the perimeter. But being a DPOY finalist suggests he SHOULD be. I paid attention to every possession and play he was involved with to come up with these unbiased results:

The Bad

He's gotten cooked several times (7-8 at least) by Randle off the dribble resulting in makes, and misses, but the point is he wasn't able to stay in front of him. He's gotten completely lost on D several times resulting in his man being wide open for threes, 2 made 1 missed. Twice he was lazy in transition defense and beaten down the court by Mitchell Robinson (he makes one dunk and laughably misses the second dunk). He also failed to box out a couple of times resulting in offensive rebounds, including the pivotal last rebound by Randle that sealed the game. This is how pretty much every Cavs game I've watched goes. The Knicks didn't target Allen and Mobley in the PnR surprisingly but that's another thing I see a lot which shouldn't happen if he's a scary DPOY worthy player.

The Good

When defending the paint, whether due to him being cooked or not, his mere presence "forced" several passes and contested bunnies (though not sure he should be applauded for that). Even when he was doing his job, it wasn't noteworthy and worthy of praise. Often times it's just bad BBIQ by the offensive player or missed shots but he does impact these types of plays positively.

Summation

There were far more bad defensive plays by Mobley than good. He had a whopping 1 block and 0 steals in this playoff game btw. Not a DPOY worthy performance by a long shot.


That said, I now understand why there's a narrative that he's a DPOY candidate. Because even when he does absolutely nothing on the play, these announcers attribute a turnover or missed shot to his defense. It's kinda hilarious. For instance, Randle cooks him (again) and can shoot it because he has separation, despite the defense collapsing, but with his awful BBIQ, he inexplicably throws it away. Hubie Brown "that's just amazing defense by Mobley!" lol wut? Mobley sags giving the offensive player separation and he shoots and misses, "wow, what great defense by Mobley". THIS is how narratives are built and nurtured in the NBA. Then you have casuals watching and agreeing "yeah...that WAS amazing defense by Mobley!"

[BostonCouchGM]

Yes, 2021 season means 2020-2021. Just like this is the 2023 season.


From the time of acquiring Allen until the end of the season, the Cavs’ defense actually ranked 28th in the league, so it was actually worse afterwards. And this is a 51/72 game sample size.

Love played 620 minutes in the 20-21 season. And 821 minutes this season with the Cavs lol. So once again, you probably should have actually done a little research before just throwing out guesses.


I mean then unfortunately you just don’t seem to be educated on how noisy these 5-versus-5 lineup stats actually are. Once again you’re just throwing out guesses and it makes it obvious you haven’t watched much of Mobley or delved into anything beyond the surface level of the stats. I guess Kevin Love, who can’t even move to contest threes anymore, is a better perimeter defender than Mobley because opponents shot 2% worse from three with him on versus off. And Mobley must have all of a sudden just become a much worse 3P defender this year compared to last year, right? Opponents shot 6% better from three with Mobley on the versus off this year but it was only 1.5% last year.


Maybe you should ask yourself if your eye test is potentially wrong considering you seem to think Mobley and Allen both can’t guard the perimeter or the PnR, and Garland and Mitchell are poor defenders at the point of attack, yet somehow the Cavs had the #1 defense in the league by a pretty clear margin. You do see how these things can’t possibly add up, right?

Their guards and wings can be more aggressive and take chances resulting in steals and challenging shooters because they have Mobley and Allen to clean up after their messes. Mitchell is a solid defender as is Okoro. It's really that simple. Allen and Mobley are elite defenders in the paint. Why can't your eyes see how bad Allen, Mobley (and most every big in the NBA) are in the PnR? Or how much room they have to give guards/wings to shoot when switched onto them (Allen much worse than Mobley) because they're afraid they'll blow by them?

Again, Mobley is a great overall defender. It's just not DPOY level imho YET since he struggles on the perimeter. It's not like he's a liability. He's just not special on the perimeter like he is down low. I think it's even more laughable that Lopez is in the discussion for DPOY since he's even worse than Mobley in that regard. JJJ, imho, is a better perimeter defender on switches. And since he has led the league in blocks now, in back to back seasons, 2 X what Mobley has btw, he would get my vote despite the missed games. JJ is such a good defender that he should be in the all-nba conversation since his offense isn't too shabby either but he's not a Celtic so the media doesn't stan for him like they do Jaylen Brown and Derrick White. Mobley definitely deserves to make all-defense though. No doubt. And he has DPOY potential but he'll need to clean up his perimeter defense first.

One of Mobleys specialties is guarding the perimeter....
He's also number ONE in contested 3 point attempts.

they count "contests" as a defender running out at a shooter whether he's actually close or not or whether the shooter had 5 yards of space before hand. Mobley sags so much because he can't defend off the dribble on the perimeter, thus allowing separation which gives them an open three. Mobley running out at that shooter isn't some praise worthy event to point out like you think it is. It also means he's being hunted in the PnR because they WANT him on the switch so they can get that separation which shouldn't happen if he's a supposed DPOY worthy candidate.

[bisme37]

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