The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[levon]

Nuggets are below that mendoza line defensively. At some point the dam breaks when your perimeter defense is not good, and your center starts to get hunted. Even DPOY Gobert was getting hunted on the Jazz.

On a team with bad spacing, Jokic can still shrink the floor and win the ground game. Once you put him in space or go at him downhill, it's over. As others have said, his best defense is his offense, but if he's gotta play 45 minutes in the playoffs, he's also going to be exhausted in half court defense too.

The Nuggets don't have a talent problem in their starting lineup, but a fit problem. They skewed way too much offense and Aaron Gordon can only do so much.

[PostGameDaVinci]

You are using mental gimnastics here to try to downplay other aspects of defense. Yes rim protection is important as is avoiding fouling, defensive rebounding, steals, deflections, positioning...and yes you can be good defender if you are bad rim protector as center, but great in everything else, and bad defender if you are good in rim protection, but bad in everything else, as Hassan Witheside was.

That is what advanced stats tell us...but, but what about eye test? Well it is hard to make eye test argument when you watch him play 5 times a year, and by the way he had some of the worse defensive games against Knicks this year.

We're talking past each other. Jokic does good things defensively but he doesn't do the main thing required of his position. A center needs to protect the rim if you want to have a great defense. If the center doesn't protect the rim, who does? Same as how it's hard to have a great defense if your guards can't chase over the top. It's required of the position.
We disagree on the importance of rim protection from the 5. Fair. We can agree to disagree.

Can you explain the totality of rim protection to you? And then can you explain what a 5 is? Do all teams have a 5 in all defensive sets? Does the 4 and 5 change as the play progresses?

We can agree to disagree too. I've already seen how you debate in this thread. You're gonna deflect my points & tell me my data is incomplete while relying on a set of data that you admit is also incomplete. I'd much rather talk about the game than abstract statistics. This isn't how I choose to enjoy the sport.

[dhsilv2]

We're talking past each other. Jokic does good things defensively but he doesn't do the main thing required of his position. A center needs to protect the rim if you want to have a great defense. If the center doesn't protect the rim, who does? Same as how it's hard to have a great defense if your guards can't chase over the top. It's required of the position.
We disagree on the importance of rim protection from the 5. Fair. We can agree to disagree.

Can you explain the totality of rim protection to you? And then can you explain what a 5 is? Do all teams have a 5 in all defensive sets? Does the 4 and 5 change as the play progresses?

We can agree to disagree too. I've already seen how you debate in this thread. You're gonna deflect my points & tell me my data is incomplete while relying on a set of data that you admit is also incomplete. I'd much rather talk about the game than abstract statistics. This isn't how I choose to enjoy the sport.

I didn't ask you to provide any stats. I asked what you consider rim protection.

I'd say the biggest part of protecting the rim, while in drop, is to stay between the basket and the player with the ball in general. But this is night and day from someone only talking about contesting shots which encompasses a vastly smaller amount of the actual game.

[PostGameDaVinci]

Can you explain the totality of rim protection to you? And then can you explain what a 5 is? Do all teams have a 5 in all defensive sets? Does the 4 and 5 change as the play progresses?

We can agree to disagree too. I've already seen how you debate in this thread. You're gonna deflect my points & tell me my data is incomplete while relying on a set of data that you admit is also incomplete. I'd much rather talk about the game than abstract statistics. This isn't how I choose to enjoy the sport.

I didn't ask you to provide any stats. I asked what you consider rim protection.

I'd say the biggest part of protecting the rim, while in drop, is to stay between the basket and the player with the ball in general. But this is night and day from someone only talking about contesting shots which encompasses a vastly smaller amount of the actual game.

I'd say the goal is to prevent shot attempts or force the shooter into a tougher shot. Being in the general position is important, but if the offense still gets open looks, then the defender didn't do his job well enough. Jokic will be in the general vicinity, but doesn't force the offense to adjust to his presence.

This morphed into a rim protection only conversation, but he's also bad at guarding in space. Which limits his defensive versatility.

Is your point that Jokic is an average defender, not a bad one?

[Special_Puppy]

We can agree to disagree too. I've already seen how you debate in this thread. You're gonna deflect my points & tell me my data is incomplete while relying on a set of data that you admit is also incomplete. I'd much rather talk about the game than abstract statistics. This isn't how I choose to enjoy the sport.

I didn't ask you to provide any stats. I asked what you consider rim protection.

I'd say the biggest part of protecting the rim, while in drop, is to stay between the basket and the player with the ball in general. But this is night and day from someone only talking about contesting shots which encompasses a vastly smaller amount of the actual game.

I'd say the goal is to prevent shot attempts or force the shooter into a tougher shot. Being in the general position is important, but if the offense still gets open looks, then the defender didn't do his job well enough. Jokic will be in the general vicinity, but doesn't force the offense to adjust to his presence.

This morphed into a rim protection only conversation, but he's also bad at guarding in space. Which limits his defensive versatility.

Is your point that Jokic is an average defender, not a bad one?

There are 4 factors on defense.
-Opponent eFG%: Jokic is definitely below average for an ATG center in this category
-Opponent Turnover Rate: Jokic is fine in this category
-Defensive Rebounding Rate: Jokic is one of the best defensive rebounders of the past 30 years
-Opponent FTr Rate: Jokic is great at not fouling so his opponents have a below average FTr
Put it all together and Jokic's teams have consistently done better when he's been on the floor when adjusting for teammate and opponent quality https://www.nbarapm.com/datasets/LifetimeRAPM

[BelgradeNugget]

My first post said that rim protection is a center's primary responsibility, not the only one. You're arguing with yourself. You can protect the rim without fouling and also grab defensive boards. They're not mutually exclusive.
The mental gymnastics in here to downplay rim protection is insane. Maybe teams will learn from Jokic & give up open high value shots so they can crash the boards instead.

You are using mental gimnastics here to try to downplay other aspects of defense. Yes rim protection is important as is avoiding fouling, defensive rebounding, steals, deflections, positioning...and yes you can be good defender if you are bad rim protector as center, but great in everything else, and bad defender if you are good in rim protection, but bad in everything else, as Hassan Witheside was.

That is what advanced stats tell us...but, but what about eye test? Well it is hard to make eye test argument when you watch him play 5 times a year, and by the way he had some of the worse defensive games against Knicks this year.

We're talking past each other. Jokic does good things defensively but he doesn't do the main thing required of his position. A center needs to protect the rim if you want to have a great defense. If the center doesn't protect the rim, who does? Same as how it's hard to have a great defense if your guards can't chase over the top. It's required of the position.
We disagree on the importance of rim protection from the 5. Fair. We can agree to disagree.

We don't have to disagree. Here is a thing

"If the center doesn't protect the rim, who does?"

PF maybe? What about defensive schemes to protect players in their bad part of the game but use him to his adventages. Nuggets had 8th best defense in the NBA last season with Jokic at C. And they had better defense with him on than off the floor. Top 3 in the playoffs in 2023. Their best defense is when Jokic is at the level in pnr, not drop because he is good at positioning and has great hands for steels and deflections, thus preventing passes to rolling big. They use it in the playoffs, but it requires a lot of energy for the whole team to rotate as much, so they mix it with drop now. They are playing bad defense rn 16th in the league. They will switch it when the time comes.

Rudy Gobert is one of the best rim protector and defender in the league. But he can't guard guards on the perimeter. So if he ends up on guards in 1 on 1 he doesn't become bad defender, it is on Minnesota to not let it hapened. Bam can guard on perimeter but can't guard good big centers on post. People will say AD is a great defender but he was one of the biggest reasons Denver was torturing Lakers in the last 2 years because he was the last one back in transition. There are different parts of defense if player is bad in one part it doesn't mean he is bad in defense overall or other way around.

Same with offense. If you say beating his man off the dribble and secondary playmaking is most important thing for SG Klay Thompson is one of the worst starting 2 guards in this decade. And D-Wade is GOAT. But if the most important thing for 2 guard is 3 pt shooting Klay is GOAT Wade is bad.

My whole point is simple. There is not 1 end-all stat to every position in basketball that defines their ability to be good on O or D. If a player is really bad in something and great in all other aspects he can be good overall.

[Special_Puppy]

trying to argue jokic is a good defender is like trying to argue giannis is a good freethrow shooter

just completely delusional to the point where you have to question any other basketball takes that person has

Its delusional to think that the player who's team consistently does better defensively when he's on the floor is a good defender? https://xrapm.com/table_pages/RAPM_29y.html

[AleksandarN]

Nuggets are below that mendoza line defensively. At some point the dam breaks when your perimeter defense is not good, and your center starts to get hunted. Even DPOY Gobert was getting hunted on the Jazz.

On a team with bad spacing, Jokic can still shrink the floor and win the ground game. Once you put him in space or go at him downhill, it's over. As others have said, his best defense is his offense, but if he's gotta play 45 minutes in the playoffs, he's also going to be exhausted in half court defense too.

The Nuggets don't have a talent problem in their starting lineup, but a fit problem. They skewed way too much offense and Aaron Gordon can only do so much.

CB is no slouch as a defender. Denver also missing their best defender in Peyton Watson AG has missed half the games this season.

[DimesandKnicks]

I haven't ignored any data you've provided. I've explained why contesting isn't important. I've explained why the 20 shots a game is a huge plus. I didn't say Jokic is having the same impact as Gobert. I was hoping to encourage you to ask questions about why his steals offsetting the defensive impact of Gobert could be real when we agree Gobert is a much better defender. But instead you made stuff up that I didn't say.

Again for the 20th time. It's better to be in a play than to be out of the play. There is no other aspect of defense more important than this. This is 90% of defense. Most plays a player isn't the one guarding the final shot attempt. And all that work is just as important as when you are the one guarding the shot. The key to playing good defense is to be in the right place, stay in the play, and to not screw up. And you to this point have still failed to even start to listen to this.

So you can keep repeating your shot attempts and contested shots till you're blue in the face. Most plays don't end in the shot even being taken against any one player. And yet Jokic being in the drop has a key role to play on every single defensive play. I've tried 1000x to explain this and you've yet to even once acknowledge this.

Contesting, for a center who is your helpside guy, is very important though. It's clear to anyone with eyes that most times guys drive against Denver Jokic doesn't even jump. No stats needed, and denying that is absurd.

Nobody is questioning this. Jokic chooses to avoid fouls by not taking those risks because even when he does challenge the return is minimal. Meanwhile fouling a shooter is so far and away the worst outcome possible, that it can negate a dozen well contested shots. That isn't to say there aren't times it's worth it to risk it. But in the long term, challenging shots when you're not great at it, is going to have a negative return.

But just to hammer this home. Among big men, Jokic is in the bottom 25% in shot blocking. If this were a question on that, we'd all agree he's bad at it. But defense is MUCH more complicated than that. If defense were this easy to quantify and explain, we'd know who's a good defender or not. But we struggle with this time and time again.

So for you the fact that 20 FGA are attempted on Jokic is actually a plus because it demonstrates that he’s the best in the league at being in the right place at the right time, sort of making it the best metric we have for how well a player rotates? Again despite how bad he is defensively despite being in the right location?

[DimesandKnicks]

No, that's what RAPM data has taught us has the most impact. I feel like we're talking early 00's where Bowen had people saying he was a better defender than Duncan.

But yes, I do have a bias to the totality of facts and what the data in total says is happening. You have a bias to your limited eye test.

No, that’s what RAPM has taught you. A metric that has Caruso as the third most impactful defender in the last 29 years and Lamar Odom as a top 50 defender.

Again, how is this metric that usurps seemingly our eye test and every other metric calculated?

It doesn't show that. Though Caruso being a top 10 defender doesn't seem surprising at all.

But RAPM usurps our eye test because it work better than our or anyone's eye test. It's 2025, the debates over if RAPM works or if NBA team's use it is over. It's our most powerful tool to judge what's happening that our eyes aren't seeing.

You’re using it, how is it calculated? Imagine it has Draymond Green as a top ten player in the last 29 years and has Mike Conley and Lilliard having an equal impact. I’d throw that **** away in the trash where it belongs

[Big J]

[x]

Read on Twitter

[/x]

Jokic is even getting help from scorekeepers.

[Special_Puppy]

No, that’s what RAPM has taught you. A metric that has Caruso as the third most impactful defender in the last 29 years and Lamar Odom as a top 50 defender.

Again, how is this metric that usurps seemingly our eye test and every other metric calculated?

It doesn't show that. Though Caruso being a top 10 defender doesn't seem surprising at all.

But RAPM usurps our eye test because it work better than our or anyone's eye test. It's 2025, the debates over if RAPM works or if NBA team's use it is over. It's our most powerful tool to judge what's happening that our eyes aren't seeing.

You’re using it, how is it calculated? Imagine it has Draymond Green as a top ten player in the last 29 years and has Mike Conley and Lilliard having an equal impact. I’d throw that **** away in the trash where it belongs

Its just a natural evolution of looking at what happens when a player changes teams or misses a game.

Watch on YouTube

[PostGameDaVinci]

I didn't ask you to provide any stats. I asked what you consider rim protection.

I'd say the biggest part of protecting the rim, while in drop, is to stay between the basket and the player with the ball in general. But this is night and day from someone only talking about contesting shots which encompasses a vastly smaller amount of the actual game.

I'd say the goal is to prevent shot attempts or force the shooter into a tougher shot. Being in the general position is important, but if the offense still gets open looks, then the defender didn't do his job well enough. Jokic will be in the general vicinity, but doesn't force the offense to adjust to his presence.

This morphed into a rim protection only conversation, but he's also bad at guarding in space. Which limits his defensive versatility.

Is your point that Jokic is an average defender, not a bad one?

There are 4 factors on defense.
-Opponent eFG%: Jokic is definitely below average for an ATG center in this category
-Opponent Turnover Rate: Jokic is fine in this category
-Defensive Rebounding Rate: Jokic is one of the best defensive rebounders of the past 30 years
-Opponent FTr Rate: Jokic is great at not fouling so his opponents have a below average FTr
Put it all together and Jokic's teams have consistently done better when he's been on the floor when adjusting for teammate and opponent quality https://www.nbarapm.com/datasets/LifetimeRAPM

4 factors according to what? Im admittedly not an advanced stat guy, so I don't really know what I'm looking at. I'm guessing DEF is a measurement of defensive impact, correct? It has Jokic at 2.0, the same as Wemby, Jimmy Butler, and the Matrix. What should I be taking away from this?

I figure Jokic is gonna throw off a lot of defensive metrics since he's so good on offense. He gets his team good shots which gives their defense time to set up. I don't know how/if that's quantified.

[DimesandKnicks]

It doesn't show that. Though Caruso being a top 10 defender doesn't seem surprising at all.

But RAPM usurps our eye test because it work better than our or anyone's eye test. It's 2025, the debates over if RAPM works or if NBA team's use it is over. It's our most powerful tool to judge what's happening that our eyes aren't seeing.

You’re using it, how is it calculated? Imagine it has Draymond Green as a top ten player in the last 29 years and has Mike Conley and Lilliard having an equal impact. I’d throw that **** away in the trash where it belongs

Its just a natural evolution of looking at what happens when a player changes teams or misses a game.

Watch on YouTube

I think this is the second time you’ve sent this. Can you save me 15 minutes and break down how this metric your championing is calculated. And does this metric make you rethink Green as a top 10 player in the last 29 years and do you think Lilliard, a top 75 player is as impactful as Conley, a player that’s never made an All NBA team?

[dhsilv2]

We can agree to disagree too. I've already seen how you debate in this thread. You're gonna deflect my points & tell me my data is incomplete while relying on a set of data that you admit is also incomplete. I'd much rather talk about the game than abstract statistics. This isn't how I choose to enjoy the sport.

I didn't ask you to provide any stats. I asked what you consider rim protection.

I'd say the biggest part of protecting the rim, while in drop, is to stay between the basket and the player with the ball in general. But this is night and day from someone only talking about contesting shots which encompasses a vastly smaller amount of the actual game.

I'd say the goal is to prevent shot attempts or force the shooter into a tougher shot. Being in the general position is important, but if the offense still gets open looks, then the defender didn't do his job well enough. Jokic will be in the general vicinity, but doesn't force the offense to adjust to his presence.

This morphed into a rim protection only conversation, but he's also bad at guarding in space. Which limits his defensive versatility.

Is your point that Jokic is an average defender, not a bad one?

Yes, my point and only point from the start was that Jokic is an average defender with obvious weaknesses that he has been able to work around and offset. That's been this entire debate despite some constantly attempting to change it to "jokic isn't good".

I'd agree an open look is bad. But how open? With Jokic he's going to stay in the play, he'll take the smart angles and so on. Others who are better at contesting and even some who are quicker will just give up on far more plays. Or they'll just take a terrible angle and they might as well have not been there. Now, nobody is saying Jokic has never taken a bad line or hasn't just given up. But among his peers, few are moving more than Jokic, especially those asked to play drop. And then there's Wemby who takes the wrong line, gets screened out of the play and then still blocks the shot...there are levels to this. And jokic will never been remotely like that lol.

[dhsilv2]

Contesting, for a center who is your helpside guy, is very important though. It's clear to anyone with eyes that most times guys drive against Denver Jokic doesn't even jump. No stats needed, and denying that is absurd.

Nobody is questioning this. Jokic chooses to avoid fouls by not taking those risks because even when he does challenge the return is minimal. Meanwhile fouling a shooter is so far and away the worst outcome possible, that it can negate a dozen well contested shots. That isn't to say there aren't times it's worth it to risk it. But in the long term, challenging shots when you're not great at it, is going to have a negative return.

But just to hammer this home. Among big men, Jokic is in the bottom 25% in shot blocking. If this were a question on that, we'd all agree he's bad at it. But defense is MUCH more complicated than that. If defense were this easy to quantify and explain, we'd know who's a good defender or not. But we struggle with this time and time again.

So for you the fact that 20 FGA are attempted on Jokic is actually a plus because it demonstrates that he’s the best in the league at being in the right place at the right time, sort of making it the best metric we have for how well a player rotates? Again despite how bad he is defensively despite being in the right location?

Dude I've answered this multiple times.

1. It's a negative because it shows teams are happy to shoot against Jokic. We've gone over this.
2. It's a huge plus that Jokic is this active and engaged. It takes a crapload of energy to stay in that many plays and not do what half the league does and just give up baskets when you're not in optimal defensive positions.
3. The high shot attempts make the low foul rates even more important here. This again goes back to everything we've been talking about. I've shown you how devastating defensively a foul on a shot is. To put this another way. If teams took every single shot on Jokic at 49.5%, with nearly all being 2's and with almost non drawing a foul. The Nuggets would win 60-70 games a year and Jokic would have a few rings. Of course...this is a silly idea. But it showcases that these poor contest stats aren't actually devastating or as you've put it, a liability.

I've gone over the nuance with this a dozen times and you keep freaking ignoring it and saying more about "blocked shots" or "contests" without taking the time to even engage in what's being said.

[dhsilv2]

No, that’s what RAPM has taught you. A metric that has Caruso as the third most impactful defender in the last 29 years and Lamar Odom as a top 50 defender.

Again, how is this metric that usurps seemingly our eye test and every other metric calculated?

It doesn't show that. Though Caruso being a top 10 defender doesn't seem surprising at all.

But RAPM usurps our eye test because it work better than our or anyone's eye test. It's 2025, the debates over if RAPM works or if NBA team's use it is over. It's our most powerful tool to judge what's happening that our eyes aren't seeing.

You’re using it, how is it calculated? Imagine it has Draymond Green as a top ten player in the last 29 years and has Mike Conley and Lilliard having an equal impact. I’d throw that **** away in the trash where it belongs

I already explained how it's calculated in this thread. I gave you the formula which you're free to google.

But again, you're using it wrong. And I'm fairly sure I've explained that already too. You can't take a damn 29 year sample and rank players on their per play impact. Makes no freaking sense. You're going to compare someone who we only have a sample of at the end of their career to a guy we've only got prime years for? That's nonsense.

[DimesandKnicks]

Nobody is questioning this. Jokic chooses to avoid fouls by not taking those risks because even when he does challenge the return is minimal. Meanwhile fouling a shooter is so far and away the worst outcome possible, that it can negate a dozen well contested shots. That isn't to say there aren't times it's worth it to risk it. But in the long term, challenging shots when you're not great at it, is going to have a negative return.

But just to hammer this home. Among big men, Jokic is in the bottom 25% in shot blocking. If this were a question on that, we'd all agree he's bad at it. But defense is MUCH more complicated than that. If defense were this easy to quantify and explain, we'd know who's a good defender or not. But we struggle with this time and time again.

So for you the fact that 20 FGA are attempted on Jokic is actually a plus because it demonstrates that he’s the best in the league at being in the right place at the right time, sort of making it the best metric we have for how well a player rotates? Again despite how bad he is defensively despite being in the right location?

Dude I've answered this multiple times.

1. It's a negative because it shows teams are happy to shoot against Jokic. We've gone over this.
2. It's a huge plus that Jokic is this active and engaged. It takes a crapload of energy to stay in that many plays and not do what half the league does and just give up baskets when you're not in optimal defensive positions.
3. The high shot attempts make the low foul rates even more important here. This again goes back to everything we've been talking about. I've shown you how devastating defensively a foul on a shot is. To put this another way. If teams took every single shot on Jokic at 49.5%, with nearly all being 2's and with almost non drawing a foul. The Nuggets would win 60-70 games a year and Jokic would have a few rings. Of course...this is a silly idea. But it showcases that these poor contest stats aren't actually devastating or as you've put it, a liability.

I've gone over the nuance with this a dozen times and you keep freaking ignoring it and saying more about "blocked shots" or "contests" without taking the time to even engage in what's being said.

No one is forcing you to answer if your getting frustrated that I don’t understand you.

1. Correct

2. This disregards that Jokic is playing 36 minutes a game. In contrast Kessler, Gobert, Lopez, Segun, Vucevic and Zubac are all averaging 33 minutes or less, most playing less than 32 minutes. If you adjust the FGA per minute Jokic would be in the middle of that pact and assuming even lower if we go further down the list. This doesn’t illustrate that Jokic is more “active” than his peers.

3. The high shot attempts would make the low foul attempts impressive if he were actually “contesting” what I would call “activity” not just being a matador. Idk how you give him credit for not fouling when he isn’t exercising enough “activity” to even register a contest.

It’s impressive that Lopez contest 13.5 out of 18.6 FGA without fouling

How is it impressive that Jokic contest 5.3 out of 20 FGA without fouling when by definition of not contesting he’s not actually making any attempt to play defense? This doesn’t cast any doubt for you?

Genuine question and maybe I’m really just not understanding your answer or it just doesn’t make sense. Maybe we aren’t in alignment on what “activity” actually means. How is this engaged and active when he literally isn’t showing activity on 3/4 of his opportunities?

You talk about it the devastating impact of committing a shooting foul as if that’s the only option. He could actually contest without fouling like his peers do.

[dhsilv2]

So for you the fact that 20 FGA are attempted on Jokic is actually a plus because it demonstrates that he’s the best in the league at being in the right place at the right time, sort of making it the best metric we have for how well a player rotates? Again despite how bad he is defensively despite being in the right location?

Dude I've answered this multiple times.

1. It's a negative because it shows teams are happy to shoot against Jokic. We've gone over this.
2. It's a huge plus that Jokic is this active and engaged. It takes a crapload of energy to stay in that many plays and not do what half the league does and just give up baskets when you're not in optimal defensive positions.
3. The high shot attempts make the low foul rates even more important here. This again goes back to everything we've been talking about. I've shown you how devastating defensively a foul on a shot is. To put this another way. If teams took every single shot on Jokic at 49.5%, with nearly all being 2's and with almost non drawing a foul. The Nuggets would win 60-70 games a year and Jokic would have a few rings. Of course...this is a silly idea. But it showcases that these poor contest stats aren't actually devastating or as you've put it, a liability.

I've gone over the nuance with this a dozen times and you keep freaking ignoring it and saying more about "blocked shots" or "contests" without taking the time to even engage in what's being said.

No one is forcing you to answer if your getting frustrated that I don’t understand you.

1. Correct

2. This disregards that Jokic is playing 36 minutes a game. In contrast Kessler, Gobert, Lopez, Segun, Vucevic and Zubac are all averaging 33 minutes or less, most playing less than 32 minutes. If you adjust the FGA per minute Jokic would be in the middle of that pact and assuming even lower if we go further down the list. This doesn’t illustrate that Jokic is more “active” than his peers.

3. The high shot attempts would make the low foul attempts impressive if he were actually “contesting” what I would call “activity” not just being a matador. Idk how you give him credit for not fouling when he isn’t exercising enough “activity” to even register a contest.

It’s impressive that Lopez contest 13.5 out of 18.6 FGA without fouling

How is it impressive that Jokic contest 5.3 out of 20 FGA without fouling when by definition of not contesting he’s not actually making any attempt to play defense? This doesn’t cast any doubt for you?

Genuine question and maybe I’m really just not understanding your answer or it just doesn’t make sense. Maybe we aren’t in alignment on what “activity” actually means. How is this engaged and active when he literally isn’t showing activity on 3/4 of his opportunities?

You talk about it the devastating impact of committing a shooting foul as if that’s the only option. He could actually contest without fouling like his peers do.

Well, you do make a good point on the minutes played. Of course that makes the first point, that teams actively are looking to shoot against him weaker. So if we take the one we need to take into account the other. But I'll leave it that I think teams do want to target shooting against Jokic. They however get into a world of hurt with his hands.

Now to the activity and you can do your minutes thing and just this if you want. But Jokic is 3rd among anyone listed at center in terms of distance traveled on defense and first in defensive field goals against. The two are important together because on most plays, teams dont take a shot against Jokic. But they are hunting the paint. Jokic does a great job of NOT being a matador in that his big wide body stays between the basket and the driver and teams have to pass out vs risking offensive fouls and despite Jokic being who he is, teams still often choose to kick back out. And again Gobert is a DPOY, a defensive god, but he looks like a poor defender in highlight packages when his teammates fail to do their jobs so lets not run these highlights of jokic without seeing the defensive breakdown. But Jokic doesn't just keep between the rim and the player but he has those active hands and he's great at disrupting passes as players pass by and over him. Even if he doesn't get a hand on it, he makes it a harder pass. When you pass over someone, sometimes it takes long to get there, giving teammates more time to recover for example. And back to being active...while consistently staying in defensive position, he's (or he was when I looked it up) 3rd in the league in steals AND deflections. Again, Jokic isn't a guy gambling to high levels. And I don't have this year numbers he but he gets like 50-75 kicked balls a year, which while kinda shady and iffy imo...that's resetting the shot clock to 16 and that's like 1 a game. It's a LOT.

There's no reasonable person who could take the above and not give Jokic credit for hustling on defense and being in the top 25% of big men in hustle. If maybe you want to use that verse effort...ok. Just trying to get us on the same page with this.

All of these little things add up. Now, I've tried to get you to offer ANY even acknowledgement that there's something other than contested shots. As we both agree that in a perfect world, a contested shot without a foul is better. Where I think we're not seeing eye to eye is that, I don't think Jokic is very good at contesting most shots. So I don't see the big deal with him not contesting. He isn't someone like say Wiggins who actually was built for defense who not contesting is terrible. Jokic is tall but he doesn't seem to have enough value in his vertical defense. I'd much rather he uses his hands, stay as best he can between the ball and the rim, and not foul.

Also and just because I just thought of it. But Jokic even seems to get back on defense better than about half of centers. And we both know he's not the fastest guy out there. For the love of god give this big dude some love there! I've seen AD who's way faster have games where he's the last man back way too much. And heaven forbid we talk about some of the guys you listed as better than Jokic....still not letting you get away with Drummond!

BTW anyone got the clip of Cousins literally nearly falling over gassed mouthing "he keeps running" after literally being run off the court by Jokic?

[Jables]

I've never seen this thread, it starts off with some of the dumbest comments you could imagine.

Like imagine being a basketball fan to the point you go on a basketball forum and saying Jokic is a Harden that got lucky. Certified evidence that time spent watching basketball doesn't mean you have opinions better than the average casual. Like if I had to make an argument it's that he'd be less effective in more physical eras and that's pretty weak, could say the same for any scorer so he'd still be just as great relative to the rest of his peers at least.

The defense line of attack is weak because Jokic is not a liability on defense, he is a plus defender that has major flaws, there's a huge difference. A big man not getting a block doesn't mean you have a gaping hole every team is taking advantage of, that's some basic bitch basketball analysis. A big's actual non negotiable role is securing rebounds and boxing out (which some people that never played just forget to include as defensive skills), and he does that on top of his obvious drop coverage positives, if you can isolate him yes you can score a bucket on them more easily compared to the average big man ... the obvious solution is to not let one player get isolated all game. Defense is a team job,