Better Athletes NFL or NBA players?

[scrabbarista]

Still reckon gymnastics looks like the hardest on the bodywise without contact.

Flexibility - Top
Discipline - Top Top Top, (no choice but to start extremely young)
Stamina/Strength/Power - Through the wazoo hole.
Skill - Haha what was that you did.

all elite sports/and or disciplines requires innate level of talent, prodigious skill and high end athletic traits. Athletic traits comes in all different forms it isn’t as measurable as just looking at a stat sheet.

Bolt could eat a full sized cheese cake, 4x mountain dews a happy meal and would smoke 99.9% of the world basically even if he never sprinted in his life.
Hopping of the couch he’d a run 12 flat.

A 50yr old man would smoke him in a half marathon (even today). It isn’t cut and dry as it’s made out to be.

A world class gymnast is a probably if not the most dedicated athlete (if your 18 you’ve basically been a straight vet for a decade lol).


Do you know the level of hand - eye you need to play Baseball/Cricket in the majors or in world international stage? it’s insanity. Plenty of stories from both disclipines of guys who “looked overweight” or chubby had beers before or after ordering and smoked everyone around them because their hand - eye is just on a different planet. No not regular rec leagues, talking about stories of ATG’s, Mickey Mantle rings a bell.

Heck Mr Daly could wack a ball as good as any.

First let me humble brag, then I'll get to the point, which is to share my two cents on baseball. (Yes, it is "insanity.")

I played baseball with the best players in America when I was 13-16 years old. A half-dozen guys who won national championships in high school and college or went to the best baseball colleges. MLB players were around from time to time to pitch us batting practice. A handful of these kids were getting mail from MLB teams in the tenth grade. I actually outplayed Enrique Cruz (I pitched well against him and hit well in that game), who made the MLB, when we were 16. At that time, I had a curve ball that made a scrub or two fall down on called strikes. (That's quite a feeling of power...) My family was poor, though, so I probably had about 10% of the practice/playing time as most of the players I've mentioned in this paragraph. They were going to the batting cages on a daily basis and playing in leagues twelve months a year since they were five years old. I never went to the cages (until I got a job and could pay for it myself) and only played three or four months a year starting at age ten. Coaches, fathers, and even an MLB player told me I was the most talented among the players in this pool, but my resources were limited, and my numbers generally reflected my lack of practice time. At my peak, around 17 years old, I could hit a 90 mph pitching machine in any direction I wanted, in a perfect line drive, every time. At that same time - and this is where I'll get to my point - I wasn't even able to accurately identify which pitches to swing at against a good live pitcher (knowing which pitches to swing at is only the first step in actually being able to hit them), because I just didn't have the reps. Factoring in changes of speed, trajectory, and release points, I literally wasn't even able to see the ball. Like, I would back out of the box as called strikes were crossing the plate. That was at the same time that I could hit 90 mph fastballs as easily Steph Curry shoots free throws. I say that to give some perspective on the coordination and reaction time required to hit against an elite pitcher (I was only facing decent high school seniors). It actually took me about a month of reps before I could see the pitches, but unfortunately I broke my throwing wrist in a motorcycle accident just when that happened, and that ended my athletic "career."

But here's what I wanted to say. 90% of non-baseball players would not even be able to spend an entire at-bat on their feet against an MLB pitcher. Never mind actually getting a swing in (never mind actually grazing the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball in fair territory... never mind actually getting a hit... lol). The speed, force, and trajectory of the pitches would literally make them fall down out of fear, if the pitcher wanted them to. Then they'd strike out and never once see any of the pitches. I'll reemphasize: 90-99% of average dudes would not even see the ball once against an MLB pitcher who was actually trying to get them out. Actually getting to swing the bat would be a complete pipe dream.

[Pelly24]

Still reckon gymnastics looks like the hardest on the bodywise without contact.

Flexibility - Top
Discipline - Top Top Top, (no choice but to start extremely young)
Stamina/Strength/Power - Through the wazoo hole.
Skill - Haha what was that you did.

all elite sports/and or disciplines requires innate level of talent, prodigious skill and high end athletic traits. Athletic traits comes in all different forms it isn’t as measurable as just looking at a stat sheet.

Bolt could eat a full sized cheese cake, 4x mountain dews a happy meal and would smoke 99.9% of the world basically even if he never sprinted in his life.
Hopping of the couch he’d a run 12 flat.

A 50yr old man would smoke him in a half marathon (even today). It isn’t cut and dry as it’s made out to be.

A world class gymnast is a probably if not the most dedicated athlete (if your 18 you’ve basically been a straight vet for a decade lol).


Do you know the level of hand - eye you need to play Baseball/Cricket in the majors or in world international stage? it’s insanity. Plenty of stories from both disclipines of guys who “looked overweight” or chubby had beers before or after ordering and smoked everyone around them because their hand - eye is just on a different planet. No not regular rec leagues, talking about stories of ATG’s, Mickey Mantle rings a bell.

Heck Mr Daly could wack a ball as good as any.

First let me humble brag, then I'll get to the point, which is to share my two cents on baseball. (Yes, it is "insanity.")

I played baseball with the best players in America when I was 13-16 years old. A half-dozen guys who won national championships in high school and college or went to the best baseball colleges. MLB players were around from time to time to pitch us batting practice. A handful of these kids were getting mail from MLB teams in the tenth grade. I actually outplayed Enrique Cruz (I pitched well against him and hit well in that game), who made the MLB, when we were 16. At that time, I had a curve ball that made a scrub or two fall down on called strikes. (That's quite a feeling of power...) My family was poor, though, so I probably had about 10% of the practice/playing time as most of the players I've mentioned in this paragraph. They were going to the batting cages on a daily basis and playing in leagues twelve months a year since they were five years old. I never went to the cages (until I got a job and could pay for it myself) and only played three or four months a year starting at age ten. Coaches, fathers, and even an MLB player told me I was the most talented among the players in this pool, but my resources were limited, and my numbers generally reflected my lack of practice time. At my peak, around 17 years old, I could hit a 90 mph pitching machine in any direction I wanted, in a perfect line drive, every time. At that same time - and this is where I'll get to my point - I wasn't even able to accurately identify which pitches to swing at against a good live pitcher (knowing which pitches to swing at is only the first step in actually being able to hit them), because I just didn't have the reps. Factoring in changes of speed, trajectory, and release points, I literally wasn't even able to see the ball. Like, I would back out of the box as called strikes were crossing the plate. That was at the same time that I could hit 90 mph fastballs as easily Steph Curry shoots free throws. I say that to give some perspective on the coordination and reaction time required to hit against an elite pitcher (I was only facing decent high school seniors). It actually took me about a month of reps before I could see the pitches, but unfortunately I broke my throwing wrist in a motorcycle accident just when that happened, and that ended my athletic "career."

But here's what I wanted to say. 90% of non-baseball players would not even be able to spend an entire at-bat on their feet against an MLB pitcher. Never mind actually getting a swing in (never mind actually grazing the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball in fair territory... never mind actually getting a hit... lol). The speed, force, and trajectory of the pitches would literally make them fall down out of fear, if the pitcher wanted them to. Then they'd strike out and never once see any of the pitches. I'll reemphasize: 90-99% of average dudes would not even see the ball once against an MLB pitcher who was actually trying to get them out. Actually getting to swing the bat would be a complete pipe dream.

This all feels absolutely true lol. I played baseball and boy, was I bad at hitting balls. I have horrendous depth perception issues and I only hit the ball once in a blue (I was a good outfielder because I was fast though). But those were little league pitches and I was scared af and you can definitely imagine applying those reflexes and that need for coordination to other sports pretty easily. Coordination is extremely important and is overlooked a lot. That's why I think Steph is a pretty solid athlete even if not what I'd call "very good" or "elite." Amazing coordination, dexterity and great strength with decent speed.

[scrabbarista]

Still reckon gymnastics looks like the hardest on the bodywise without contact.

Flexibility - Top
Discipline - Top Top Top, (no choice but to start extremely young)
Stamina/Strength/Power - Through the wazoo hole.
Skill - Haha what was that you did.

all elite sports/and or disciplines requires innate level of talent, prodigious skill and high end athletic traits. Athletic traits comes in all different forms it isn’t as measurable as just looking at a stat sheet.

Bolt could eat a full sized cheese cake, 4x mountain dews a happy meal and would smoke 99.9% of the world basically even if he never sprinted in his life.
Hopping of the couch he’d a run 12 flat.

A 50yr old man would smoke him in a half marathon (even today). It isn’t cut and dry as it’s made out to be.

A world class gymnast is a probably if not the most dedicated athlete (if your 18 you’ve basically been a straight vet for a decade lol).


Do you know the level of hand - eye you need to play Baseball/Cricket in the majors or in world international stage? it’s insanity. Plenty of stories from both disclipines of guys who “looked overweight” or chubby had beers before or after ordering and smoked everyone around them because their hand - eye is just on a different planet. No not regular rec leagues, talking about stories of ATG’s, Mickey Mantle rings a bell.

Heck Mr Daly could wack a ball as good as any.

First let me humble brag, then I'll get to the point, which is to share my two cents on baseball. (Yes, it is "insanity.")

I played baseball with the best players in America when I was 13-16 years old. A half-dozen guys who won national championships in high school and college or went to the best baseball colleges. MLB players were around from time to time to pitch us batting practice. A handful of these kids were getting mail from MLB teams in the tenth grade. I actually outplayed Enrique Cruz (I pitched well against him and hit well in that game), who made the MLB, when we were 16. At that time, I had a curve ball that made a scrub or two fall down on called strikes. (That's quite a feeling of power...) My family was poor, though, so I probably had about 10% of the practice/playing time as most of the players I've mentioned in this paragraph. They were going to the batting cages on a daily basis and playing in leagues twelve months a year since they were five years old. I never went to the cages (until I got a job and could pay for it myself) and only played three or four months a year starting at age ten. Coaches, fathers, and even an MLB player told me I was the most talented among the players in this pool, but my resources were limited, and my numbers generally reflected my lack of practice time. At my peak, around 17 years old, I could hit a 90 mph pitching machine in any direction I wanted, in a perfect line drive, every time. At that same time - and this is where I'll get to my point - I wasn't even able to accurately identify which pitches to swing at against a good live pitcher (knowing which pitches to swing at is only the first step in actually being able to hit them), because I just didn't have the reps. Factoring in changes of speed, trajectory, and release points, I literally wasn't even able to see the ball. Like, I would back out of the box as called strikes were crossing the plate. That was at the same time that I could hit 90 mph fastballs as easily Steph Curry shoots free throws. I say that to give some perspective on the coordination and reaction time required to hit against an elite pitcher (I was only facing decent high school seniors). It actually took me about a month of reps before I could see the pitches, but unfortunately I broke my throwing wrist in a motorcycle accident just when that happened, and that ended my athletic "career."

But here's what I wanted to say. 90% of non-baseball players would not even be able to spend an entire at-bat on their feet against an MLB pitcher. Never mind actually getting a swing in (never mind actually grazing the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball in fair territory... never mind actually getting a hit... lol). The speed, force, and trajectory of the pitches would literally make them fall down out of fear, if the pitcher wanted them to. Then they'd strike out and never once see any of the pitches. I'll reemphasize: 90-99% of average dudes would not even see the ball once against an MLB pitcher who was actually trying to get them out. Actually getting to swing the bat would be a complete pipe dream.

This all feels absolutely true lol. I played baseball and boy, was I bad at hitting balls. I have horrendous depth perception issues and I only hit the ball once in a blue (I was a good outfielder because I was fast though). But those were little league pitches and I was scared af and you can definitely imagine applying those reflexes and that need for coordination to other sports pretty easily. Coordination is extremely important and is overlooked a lot. That's why I think Steph is a pretty solid athlete even if not what I'd call "very good" or "elite." Amazing coordination, dexterity and great strength with decent speed.

Yeah, it's true. Guys like Ted Williams and Albert Pujols basically had super powers.

It's not hard for me to imagine Steph being a pro at a lot of sports. Baseball, tennis, whatever, if that's what he'd been raised to do instead of basketball. Not saying he'd be a good pro or anything, because who knows. I'm just saying I can imagine it pretty easily. I'd call him "super elite," but my definition of "athleticism" is a little different than the typical "running and jumping" standard that most people have in mind when they hear the word.

[DCasey91]

First let me humble brag, then I'll get to the point, which is to share my two cents on baseball. (Yes, it is "insanity.")

I played baseball with the best players in America when I was 13-16 years old. A half-dozen guys who won national championships in high school and college or went to the best baseball colleges. MLB players were around from time to time to pitch us batting practice. A handful of these kids were getting mail from MLB teams in the tenth grade. I actually outplayed Enrique Cruz (I pitched well against him and hit well in that game), who made the MLB, when we were 16. At that time, I had a curve ball that made a scrub or two fall down on called strikes. (That's quite a feeling of power...) My family was poor, though, so I probably had about 10% of the practice/playing time as most of the players I've mentioned in this paragraph. They were going to the batting cages on a daily basis and playing in leagues twelve months a year since they were five years old. I never went to the cages (until I got a job and could pay for it myself) and only played three or four months a year starting at age ten. Coaches, fathers, and even an MLB player told me I was the most talented among the players in this pool, but my resources were limited, and my numbers generally reflected my lack of practice time. At my peak, around 17 years old, I could hit a 90 mph pitching machine in any direction I wanted, in a perfect line drive, every time. At that same time - and this is where I'll get to my point - I wasn't even able to accurately identify which pitches to swing at against a good live pitcher (knowing which pitches to swing at is only the first step in actually being able to hit them), because I just didn't have the reps. Factoring in changes of speed, trajectory, and release points, I literally wasn't even able to see the ball. Like, I would back out of the box as called strikes were crossing the plate. That was at the same time that I could hit 90 mph fastballs as easily Steph Curry shoots free throws. I say that to give some perspective on the coordination and reaction time required to hit against an elite pitcher (I was only facing decent high school seniors). It actually took me about a month of reps before I could see the pitches, but unfortunately I broke my throwing wrist in a motorcycle accident just when that happened, and that ended my athletic "career."

But here's what I wanted to say. 90% of non-baseball players would not even be able to spend an entire at-bat on their feet against an MLB pitcher. Never mind actually getting a swing in (never mind actually grazing the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball... never mind actually hitting the ball in fair territory... never mind actually getting a hit... lol). The speed, force, and trajectory of the pitches would literally make them fall down out of fear, if the pitcher wanted them to. Then they'd strike out and never once see any of the pitches. I'll reemphasize: 90-99% of average dudes would not even see the ball once against an MLB pitcher who was actually trying to get them out. Actually getting to swing the bat would be a complete pipe dream.

This all feels absolutely true lol. I played baseball and boy, was I bad at hitting balls. I have horrendous depth perception issues and I only hit the ball once in a blue (I was a good outfielder because I was fast though). But those were little league pitches and I was scared af and you can definitely imagine applying those reflexes and that need for coordination to other sports pretty easily. Coordination is extremely important and is overlooked a lot. That's why I think Steph is a pretty solid athlete even if not what I'd call "very good" or "elite." Amazing coordination, dexterity and great strength with decent speed.

Yeah, it's true.

It's not hard for me to imagine Steph being a pro at a lot of sports. Baseball, tennis, whatever, if that's what he'd been raised to do instead of basketball. Not saying he'd be a good pro or anything, because who knows. I'm just saying I can imagine it pretty easily. I'd call him "super elite," but my definition of "athleticism" is a little different than the typical "running and jumping" standard that most people have in mind when they hear the word.

Man awesome story it’s weird how things work out in the end, the opportunities, gifts, talents etc. Hitting a 90+ MPH with any type of consistency is ridiculously hard, like one you have to be good enough to get bat on the thing which cancels out a lot of people then you somehow as you said have to get power, accuracy, timing, placement even recognition of the pitch would takes years in a cage. But it’s great you got to challenge yourself with other elite talents even for a short period of time.

Stephs hand - eye is out of this world, absolute dead eye mechanics. Would be a fun boxer to watch if he took it up. Agile as heck (he’s a rabbit on the court in a good way, ever tried to catch a rabbit in close quarters when it’s darting around? Haha good luck with that) and his arm is jacked would have a fast as heck jab. Dude plays Golf off basically scratch, that is not easy to do like at all.

In Cricket was in the Nets with an ex international player (Bowler). I hold my own with everyone else at my club. But I tell you what you know your’e out of your depth once he was warmed up. He only played the year and played half the games (injuries, hammies mainly), but when he did he took the piss. Made gun club players which are still great in their own right look out of sorts regularly. And he hasn’t played internationally for well over five years. Dude was hiking. The bounce he got was crazy of a length.

I reckon a lot of people here would have played/played against a freak or elite talent as a junior in a sport thinking damn he’s so much better than everyone else. Now when you’re an adult your like whatever happen to that dude he never made it in the end. It’s crazy hard to get to the top in sports.

Old as heck scalabarine torched a pro/semi league international player. There’s levels that the even regular sporting person would have trouble imagining the type of environment it is to be in on a day to day.

[Mirotic12]

NFL has the best top end athletes of the two. But it's hard to say overall though when averaging all of the players, because the NFL has a lot of guys that are mainly there just because they are big and strong.

[gorz]

Both feature fantastic athletes albeit basketball being a more skilled athletic sport than football. I think if we are just comparing them as a whole based on averages without accounting for several different factors nfl blows nba out of the water. But if you look deeper than surface you realize nbas criteria for selection of players drafted isn't based as much on athleticism as the nfl but rather the nba has to take into much consideration the said skill height wingspan for a players position etc which eliminates even alot of extremely athletic but short or extremely athletic but not very skilled basketball players. Generally speaking the taller the person(upper range 6'7 and above) the less athletic they are less coordinated due to higher center of gravity than normal average size human beings. Another huge consideration and arguably most important distinction to factor is the training element between nfl and nba. Nfl workouts are predicated around strength, power, and speed to improve results on the major combine tests such as 40yr dash vertical broad jump shuttle agiltiy bench press . Whereas the nba has nowhere near the same focus or emphasis on those elements of athletic training as the nfl does. Hence why the nfl athletes are so much more powerful explosive than the nba athletes. At the same token I can find these same workout gym warriors who can run a blazing 40 movement look stiff and awkward playing basketball.

[DCasey91]

NFL has the best top end athletes of the two. But it's hard to say overall though when averaging all of the players, because the NFL has a lot of guys that are mainly there just because they are big and strong.

I think mainly different sports requires different physiques. Athletes come in all shapes and sizes. One frame, or one body type might excel over another. There is correlations of course but there’s always a high threshold to cover to make it at the top. Balance, Hand - eye, core strength is very very important as well as composure.

[scrabbarista]

This all feels absolutely true lol. I played baseball and boy, was I bad at hitting balls. I have horrendous depth perception issues and I only hit the ball once in a blue (I was a good outfielder because I was fast though). But those were little league pitches and I was scared af and you can definitely imagine applying those reflexes and that need for coordination to other sports pretty easily. Coordination is extremely important and is overlooked a lot. That's why I think Steph is a pretty solid athlete even if not what I'd call "very good" or "elite." Amazing coordination, dexterity and great strength with decent speed.

Yeah, it's true.

It's not hard for me to imagine Steph being a pro at a lot of sports. Baseball, tennis, whatever, if that's what he'd been raised to do instead of basketball. Not saying he'd be a good pro or anything, because who knows. I'm just saying I can imagine it pretty easily. I'd call him "super elite," but my definition of "athleticism" is a little different than the typical "running and jumping" standard that most people have in mind when they hear the word.

Man awesome story it’s weird how things work out in the end, the opportunities, gifts, talents etc. Hitting a 90+ MPH with any type of consistency is ridiculously hard, like one you have to be good enough to get bat on the thing which cancels out a lot of people then you somehow as you said have to get power, accuracy, timing, placement even recognition of the pitch would takes years in a cage. But it’s great you got to challenge yourself with other elite talents even for a short period of time.

Stephs hand - eye is out of this world, absolute dead eye mechanics. Would be a fun boxer to watch if he took it up. Agile as heck (he’s a rabbit on the court in a good way, ever tried to catch a rabbit in close quarters when it’s darting around? Haha good luck with that) and his arm is jacked would have a fast as heck jab. Dude plays Golf off basically scratch, that is not easy to do like at all.

In Cricket was in the Nets with an ex international player (Bowler). I hold my own with everyone else at my club. But I tell you what you know your’e out of your depth once he was warmed up. He only played the year and played half the games (injuries, hammies mainly), but when he did he took the piss. Made gun club players which are still great in their own right look out of sorts regularly. And he hasn’t played internationally for well over five years. Dude was hiking. The bounce he got was crazy of a length.

I reckon a lot of people here would have played/played against a freak or elite talent as a junior in a sport thinking damn he’s so much better than everyone else. Now when you’re an adult your like whatever happen to that dude he never made it in the end. It’s crazy hard to get to the top in sports.

Old as heck scalabarine torched a pro/semi league international player. There’s levels that the even regular sporting person would have trouble imagining the type of environment it is to be in on a day to day.

Haha, yeah, there are definitely levels of athletic prowess that it's hard to imagine without actually being matched up against them. I understood about half of your cricket story, but I'm sure I got the point, lol.

Thanks for the props. To be clear, I was hitting 90 mph against a machine, not against a person. I don't really know how hard that is in the grand scheme of things. (I know I had great hand-eye coordination, but I don't know how good, exactly.) What I do know is that doing it against a live pitcher who's mixing up that 90 mph fastball with his other pitches is maybe like fifty times harder.

[SkyHookFTW]

This all feels absolutely true lol. I played baseball and boy, was I bad at hitting balls. I have horrendous depth perception issues and I only hit the ball once in a blue (I was a good outfielder because I was fast though). But those were little league pitches and I was scared af and you can definitely imagine applying those reflexes and that need for coordination to other sports pretty easily. Coordination is extremely important and is overlooked a lot. That's why I think Steph is a pretty solid athlete even if not what I'd call "very good" or "elite." Amazing coordination, dexterity and great strength with decent speed.

Yeah, it's true.

It's not hard for me to imagine Steph being a pro at a lot of sports. Baseball, tennis, whatever, if that's what he'd been raised to do instead of basketball. Not saying he'd be a good pro or anything, because who knows. I'm just saying I can imagine it pretty easily. I'd call him "super elite," but my definition of "athleticism" is a little different than the typical "running and jumping" standard that most people have in mind when they hear the word.

Man awesome story it’s weird how things work out in the end, the opportunities, gifts, talents etc. Hitting a 90+ MPH with any type of consistency is ridiculously hard, like one you have to be good enough to get bat on the thing which cancels out a lot of people then you somehow as you said have to get power, accuracy, timing, placement even recognition of the pitch would takes years in a cage. But it’s great you got to challenge yourself with other elite talents even for a short period of time.

Stephs hand - eye is out of this world, absolute dead eye mechanics. Would be a fun boxer to watch if he took it up. Agile as heck (he’s a rabbit on the court in a good way, ever tried to catch a rabbit in close quarters when it’s darting around? Haha good luck with that) and his arm is jacked would have a fast as heck jab. Dude plays Golf off basically scratch, that is not easy to do like at all.

In Cricket was in the Nets with an ex international player (Bowler). I hold my own with everyone else at my club. But I tell you what you know your’e out of your depth once he was warmed up. He only played the year and played half the games (injuries, hammies mainly), but when he did he took the piss. Made gun club players which are still great in their own right look out of sorts regularly. And he hasn’t played internationally for well over five years. Dude was hiking. The bounce he got was crazy of a length.

I reckon a lot of people here would have played/played against a freak or elite talent as a junior in a sport thinking damn he’s so much better than everyone else. Now when you’re an adult your like whatever happen to that dude he never made it in the end. It’s crazy hard to get to the top in sports.

Old as heck scalabarine torched a pro/semi league international player. There’s levels that the even regular sporting person would have trouble imagining the type of environment it is to be in on a day to day.

The bolded part--I say this to my players all the time. About 2% of high school athletes will play sports at a D1 school. This doesn't mean start, it means just being on the team. Another 4-6% will play either D2 or D3. That's it. And only about 2% of those college athletes will even make it to a pro team in any sport.

This is why talent evaluators focus so much on traditional indicators of athletic ability. Sheer speed, strength, and jumping ability are not the only indicators of athletic ability, but they are the easiest to measure. And practice has shown that those athletes who measure below a set standard have a much less chance of being successful that those who either meet or exceed those standards. While there are outliers/exceptions to this general grade, the overwhelming experience of pro sports holds this to be the best current indicator of success relative to the sport. Other tests can be given to observe eye/hand coordination, but this is not easy to measure (eye test is usually good if your evaluator knows what to look for). Intangibles such as heart and work ethic are almost impossible to gauge with accuracy from person to person.

[magicman1978]

Most of the "skill" in basketball really comes down to athletic ability. Harden's step back 3 works because he can stop his body on a dime because of his athletic ability to do so. Controlling a ball and changing directions again goes back to athletic skills. Fine motor skills are no different than strength in that training improves them but fine motor skills are an athletic trait.

Harden has great coordination, but he also didn't come into the league and be able to do what he does now. That took a lot of practice - that's more skill than natural athletic ability. If you take a look at the average NFL cornerback - they have incredible agility, quickness, speed, reaction times, etc. They are much better than NBA players in these areas of athleticism on average, but NBA players may beat them in areas like coordination (dribbling a basketball) - definitely not agility. I think NFL players just beat out NBA players on more areas of athletic traits (if you tested DK Metcalf and Harden in areas of athleticism, I think Metcalf comes out on top in more). Also, if NBA players were more athletic - I think we'd see at least one player in combine history do what 20 football players did this year in an area that's highly relevant to NBA athleticism (40+ standing vert).

1. Harden's skills are built on his athleticism. Yes, it's a skill to use the step back, but the step back works because he can do that. People are so interested in 40 yard dashes and vertical leaping, but Harden is in the 99th percentile in his ability to decelerate.
2. Coordination is a part of agility. Dribbling is a part of agility.
3. Cornerbacks are likely the most agile players in the NFL but they're also among the smallest and generally aren't the top strength guys either.
4. Isn't Metcalf seen as among the best athletes in the NFL? I brought up harden because he's generally seen as on the lower end of being a natural athlete while being elite in the nba. Why compare him to a guy who's the opposite? Seems to be missing the point of why I even brought Harden in.
5. Standing vert is an explosive movement. As discussed NFL players train for explosive (strength) areas while NBA players have to train much more for endurance. This is a fundamental difference in the two sports. NBA players have to have much more of a balance while NFL players due to the nature of the game don't.

1. Yes, but NFL players - particularly wide receivers, running backs, cornerbacks are also in the 99th percentile in ability to decelerate. These guys need to change directions on a dime.
2. I think coordination is an athleticism skills separate from agility and dribbling is a part of coordination. I would rank a guy like Jokic high on coordination, but not so much on agility
3. Sure - cornerbacks are not elite in every category, but then again very few players are elite in all categories of athleticism
4. I actually think Harden is an elite NBA athlete taking into account multiple athletic traits - he's big, strong, very quick, and very coordinated. So I guess we have different views on his athleticism.
5. Again, I don't discount that NBA players may be better in certain areas of athleticism - I just believe that the elite NFL athletes are better across a larger spectrum. and I 'll go back to my original statement - the NBA is much more reliant on skill and it's what they focus on over the majority of athletic traits. Being able to outrun / outquick / outmuscle people is just more important in the NFL and it's something that's a huge focus in their training.

[dolphinatik]

NFL and its not close, Ive balled with NFL players and NBA players, you marvel at how deadly the NBA players are with their shot but your mouth drops at how fast, powerful, quick, agile and built like a tank NFL players are and they can get up with ease.

NFL way more athletic
NBA way more skilled at basketball

[dhsilv2]

Harden has great coordination, but he also didn't come into the league and be able to do what he does now. That took a lot of practice - that's more skill than natural athletic ability. If you take a look at the average NFL cornerback - they have incredible agility, quickness, speed, reaction times, etc. They are much better than NBA players in these areas of athleticism on average, but NBA players may beat them in areas like coordination (dribbling a basketball) - definitely not agility. I think NFL players just beat out NBA players on more areas of athletic traits (if you tested DK Metcalf and Harden in areas of athleticism, I think Metcalf comes out on top in more). Also, if NBA players were more athletic - I think we'd see at least one player in combine history do what 20 football players did this year in an area that's highly relevant to NBA athleticism (40+ standing vert).

1. Harden's skills are built on his athleticism. Yes, it's a skill to use the step back, but the step back works because he can do that. People are so interested in 40 yard dashes and vertical leaping, but Harden is in the 99th percentile in his ability to decelerate.
2. Coordination is a part of agility. Dribbling is a part of agility.
3. Cornerbacks are likely the most agile players in the NFL but they're also among the smallest and generally aren't the top strength guys either.
4. Isn't Metcalf seen as among the best athletes in the NFL? I brought up harden because he's generally seen as on the lower end of being a natural athlete while being elite in the nba. Why compare him to a guy who's the opposite? Seems to be missing the point of why I even brought Harden in.
5. Standing vert is an explosive movement. As discussed NFL players train for explosive (strength) areas while NBA players have to train much more for endurance. This is a fundamental difference in the two sports. NBA players have to have much more of a balance while NFL players due to the nature of the game don't.

1. Yes, but NFL players - particularly wide receivers, running backs, cornerbacks are also in the 99th percentile in ability to decelerate. These guys need to change directions on a dime.
2. I think coordination is an athleticism skills separate from agility and dribbling is a part of coordination. I would rank a guy like Jokic high on coordination, but not so much on agility
3. Sure - cornerbacks are not elite in every category, but then again very few players are elite in all categories of athleticism
4. I actually think Harden is an elite NBA athlete taking into account multiple athletic traits - he's big, strong, very quick, and very coordinated. So I guess we have different views on his athleticism.
5. Again, I don't discount that NBA players may be better in certain areas of athleticism - I just believe that the elite NFL athletes are better across a larger spectrum. and I 'll go back to my original statement - the NBA is much more reliant on skill and it's what they focus on over the majority of athletic traits. Being able to outrun / outquick / outmuscle people is just more important in the NFL and it's something that's a huge focus in their training.

1. Sorry harden was in the 99th percentile among nba players, not the general population. Changing direction is one of the most important athletic traits in basketball and it's one of the reasons added too much muscle hurts nba players and why they are weaker. Harden would be a freak in that regard among NFL WRs where it is FAR less important.
2. Coordination is a critical part of agility. Without it you're simply not agile. You can't change directions of any and all parts of your body smoothly and cleanly if you're not extremely coordinated. There is additional fine motor skills and dexterity needed to dribble which might fall outside this, but coordination is the foundation of agility. While i suppose you could make a case that one can be coordinated but not agile, the converse is simply false.
4. I'd not completely disagree but in terms of conventional athletics he's not explosive nor super fast.
5. NBA skill is grossly over valued. It takes insane skill to bench press 400 pounds, but most people will call that strength. I could see a case that raw IQ is more critical in the NBA as all players end up with the ball and there are more decisions to be made, but skill is really overrated. Curry is an insane 3 point shooter because of his fine motor skills. he didn't just study shooting more. He was just born with better motor skills just like an NFL offensive lineman was just born to be bigger and stronger than most people. Both guys just built on that natural ability.

[dhsilv2]

Yeah, it's true.

It's not hard for me to imagine Steph being a pro at a lot of sports. Baseball, tennis, whatever, if that's what he'd been raised to do instead of basketball. Not saying he'd be a good pro or anything, because who knows. I'm just saying I can imagine it pretty easily. I'd call him "super elite," but my definition of "athleticism" is a little different than the typical "running and jumping" standard that most people have in mind when they hear the word.

Man awesome story it’s weird how things work out in the end, the opportunities, gifts, talents etc. Hitting a 90+ MPH with any type of consistency is ridiculously hard, like one you have to be good enough to get bat on the thing which cancels out a lot of people then you somehow as you said have to get power, accuracy, timing, placement even recognition of the pitch would takes years in a cage. But it’s great you got to challenge yourself with other elite talents even for a short period of time.

Stephs hand - eye is out of this world, absolute dead eye mechanics. Would be a fun boxer to watch if he took it up. Agile as heck (he’s a rabbit on the court in a good way, ever tried to catch a rabbit in close quarters when it’s darting around? Haha good luck with that) and his arm is jacked would have a fast as heck jab. Dude plays Golf off basically scratch, that is not easy to do like at all.

In Cricket was in the Nets with an ex international player (Bowler). I hold my own with everyone else at my club. But I tell you what you know your’e out of your depth once he was warmed up. He only played the year and played half the games (injuries, hammies mainly), but when he did he took the piss. Made gun club players which are still great in their own right look out of sorts regularly. And he hasn’t played internationally for well over five years. Dude was hiking. The bounce he got was crazy of a length.

I reckon a lot of people here would have played/played against a freak or elite talent as a junior in a sport thinking damn he’s so much better than everyone else. Now when you’re an adult your like whatever happen to that dude he never made it in the end. It’s crazy hard to get to the top in sports.

Old as heck scalabarine torched a pro/semi league international player. There’s levels that the even regular sporting person would have trouble imagining the type of environment it is to be in on a day to day.

The bolded part--I say this to my players all the time. About 2% of high school athletes will play sports at a D1 school. This doesn't mean start, it means just being on the team. Another 4-6% will play either D2 or D3. That's it. And only about 2% of those college athletes will even make it to a pro team in any sport.

This is why talent evaluators focus so much on traditional indicators of athletic ability. Sheer speed, strength, and jumping ability are not the only indicators of athletic ability, but they are the easiest to measure. And practice has shown that those athletes who measure below a set standard have a much less chance of being successful that those who either meet or exceed those standards. While there are outliers/exceptions to this general grade, the overwhelming experience of pro sports holds this to be the best current indicator of success relative to the sport. Other tests can be given to observe eye/hand coordination, but this is not easy to measure (eye test is usually good if your evaluator knows what to look for). Intangibles such as heart and work ethic are almost impossible to gauge with accuracy from person to person.

Height, shoulder width, just general body composition are likely the first thing people look at. All else equal if I see a big guy with little hands, that's not ideal for catching a ball for example.

[SkyHookFTW]

Man awesome story it’s weird how things work out in the end, the opportunities, gifts, talents etc. Hitting a 90+ MPH with any type of consistency is ridiculously hard, like one you have to be good enough to get bat on the thing which cancels out a lot of people then you somehow as you said have to get power, accuracy, timing, placement even recognition of the pitch would takes years in a cage. But it’s great you got to challenge yourself with other elite talents even for a short period of time.

Stephs hand - eye is out of this world, absolute dead eye mechanics. Would be a fun boxer to watch if he took it up. Agile as heck (he’s a rabbit on the court in a good way, ever tried to catch a rabbit in close quarters when it’s darting around? Haha good luck with that) and his arm is jacked would have a fast as heck jab. Dude plays Golf off basically scratch, that is not easy to do like at all.

In Cricket was in the Nets with an ex international player (Bowler). I hold my own with everyone else at my club. But I tell you what you know your’e out of your depth once he was warmed up. He only played the year and played half the games (injuries, hammies mainly), but when he did he took the piss. Made gun club players which are still great in their own right look out of sorts regularly. And he hasn’t played internationally for well over five years. Dude was hiking. The bounce he got was crazy of a length.

I reckon a lot of people here would have played/played against a freak or elite talent as a junior in a sport thinking damn he’s so much better than everyone else. Now when you’re an adult your like whatever happen to that dude he never made it in the end. It’s crazy hard to get to the top in sports.

Old as heck scalabarine torched a pro/semi league international player. There’s levels that the even regular sporting person would have trouble imagining the type of environment it is to be in on a day to day.

The bolded part--I say this to my players all the time. About 2% of high school athletes will play sports at a D1 school. This doesn't mean start, it means just being on the team. Another 4-6% will play either D2 or D3. That's it. And only about 2% of those college athletes will even make it to a pro team in any sport.

This is why talent evaluators focus so much on traditional indicators of athletic ability. Sheer speed, strength, and jumping ability are not the only indicators of athletic ability, but they are the easiest to measure. And practice has shown that those athletes who measure below a set standard have a much less chance of being successful that those who either meet or exceed those standards. While there are outliers/exceptions to this general grade, the overwhelming experience of pro sports holds this to be the best current indicator of success relative to the sport. Other tests can be given to observe eye/hand coordination, but this is not easy to measure (eye test is usually good if your evaluator knows what to look for). Intangibles such as heart and work ethic are almost impossible to gauge with accuracy from person to person.

Height, shoulder width, just general body composition are likely the first thing people look at. All else equal if I see a big guy with little hands, that's not ideal for catching a ball for example.

I have dealt with scouts for decades. I know what they look for, at least in football. Body type means nothing if that body can't perform.

[dhsilv2]

The bolded part--I say this to my players all the time. About 2% of high school athletes will play sports at a D1 school. This doesn't mean start, it means just being on the team. Another 4-6% will play either D2 or D3. That's it. And only about 2% of those college athletes will even make it to a pro team in any sport.

This is why talent evaluators focus so much on traditional indicators of athletic ability. Sheer speed, strength, and jumping ability are not the only indicators of athletic ability, but they are the easiest to measure. And practice has shown that those athletes who measure below a set standard have a much less chance of being successful that those who either meet or exceed those standards. While there are outliers/exceptions to this general grade, the overwhelming experience of pro sports holds this to be the best current indicator of success relative to the sport. Other tests can be given to observe eye/hand coordination, but this is not easy to measure (eye test is usually good if your evaluator knows what to look for). Intangibles such as heart and work ethic are almost impossible to gauge with accuracy from person to person.

Height, shoulder width, just general body composition are likely the first thing people look at. All else equal if I see a big guy with little hands, that's not ideal for catching a ball for example.

I have dealt with scouts for decades. I know what they look for, at least in football. Body type means nothing if that body can't perform.

you see first...i doubt these guys even bring it up because it's just the first thing someone does. If someone doesn't look the part they'll get dismissed until they prove something otherwise.

[SkyHookFTW]

Height, shoulder width, just general body composition are likely the first thing people look at. All else equal if I see a big guy with little hands, that's not ideal for catching a ball for example.

I have dealt with scouts for decades. I know what they look for, at least in football. Body type means nothing if that body can't perform.

you see first...i doubt these guys even bring it up because it's just the first thing someone does. If someone doesn't look the part they'll get dismissed until they prove something otherwise.

You clearly know nothing about football recruiting. Performance counts over everything. NCAA D1 and NFL had/have plenty of players who don't look the part but have off the chart measurements in one or two areas. Hell, the Philadelphia Eagles first round draft pick this year looks like he'd lose a fight to a scarecrow. Long-term development picks are due to the player having something unique about them. The only time body types take total precedence is if the person has a unique body, i.e. 7' tall for basketball--those guys will usually get a shot simply because there are so few 7' people in the world, or a 6'5" 330 pound guy who never played football but can run a 5 sec 40 and have a 35" vertical--like the 7' player in basketball, those humans are very few in number. Again, the Eagles took a player like that years ago, Jordan Mailata, a massive rugby player. It has taken three years, but he is now looking like he could be a legit player at a very tough position, left tackle. On the other hand, Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, DeSean Jackson, all high performers with no NFL body to speak of, but measurables that transcended body type were taken over many other WR's in their respective drafts with better looking bodies.

24 of my players signed to D1 schools over the years. Two played in the NFL. Every one was looked at in person. Half did not have an athletic body type, but they were taken over better "bodies" because they performed on the field.

[dhsilv2]

I have dealt with scouts for decades. I know what they look for, at least in football. Body type means nothing if that body can't perform.

you see first...i doubt these guys even bring it up because it's just the first thing someone does. If someone doesn't look the part they'll get dismissed until they prove something otherwise.

You clearly know nothing about football recruiting. Performance counts over everything. NCAA D1 and NFL had/have plenty of players who don't look the part but have off the chart measurements in one or two areas. Hell, the Philadelphia Eagles first round draft pick this year looks like he'd lose a fight to a scarecrow. Long-term development picks are due to the player having something unique about them. The only time body types take total precedence is if the person has a unique body, i.e. 7' tall for basketball--those guys will usually get a shot simply because there are so few 7' people in the world, or a 6'5" 330 pound guy who never played football but can run a 5 sec 40 and have a 35" vertical--like the 7' player in basketball, those humans are very few in number. Again, the Eagles took a player like that years ago, Jordan Mailata, a massive rugby player. It has taken three years, but he is now looking like he could be a legit player at a very tough position, left tackle. On the other hand, Jerry Rice, Steve Largent, DeSean Jackson, all high performers with no NFL body to speak of, but measurables that transcended body type were taken over many other WR's in their respective drafts with better looking bodies.

24 of my players signed to D1 schools over the years. Two played in the NFL. Every one was looked at in person. Half did not have an athletic body type, but they were taken over better "bodies" because they performed on the field.

Unless they're not human, their first impression is with their eyes.

Mind you I never said or implied body type took precedence in the decision...so I have no idea what you're going on about.