Kobe agrees to contact extension with Lakers

[Frosty]

I asked earlier in this thread WHO the lakers can't get because of Kobe's contract, and still no answer. i even posted the 2014 FA list. The reality is that LA wasn't giving out 2 max contracts because.......they aren't 2 players worth it in 2014.

That's only one aspect. In giving all of that cap room to Kobe it also impairs trades that may require them to take salary back. They got Gasol from a team dumping salary.

Seriously, if you can't actually tell me a 2014 plan to turn LA into contenders, then you're just blowing smoke. Lebron WAS the 2014 plan, but then Ray Ray had to hit that shot. So now its about Love in 2015, and other guys like KD & Westbrook. The Lakers have no interest in taking a bunch of mid-level FAs in 2014 because THAT would screw up any chance to get those 3. Locking Kobe up keeps a Top 7 player, and they have young talent developing on that roster.

What we are telling you is that by overpaying they are pretty much saying there is no plan. If they want to keep any of that young talent they are developing it's going to quickly erode that sum they are holding. So you tell us who they are going to keep and at what salary.

[CharlieMurphy]

I asked earlier in this thread WHO the lakers can't get because of Kobe's contract, and still no answer. i even posted the 2014 FA list. The reality is that LA wasn't giving out 2 max contracts because.......they aren't 2 players worth it in 2014.

People last week were saying LA should have amnestied Kobe, and that they should tank for Wiggins. Now we have the usual suspects acting like Kobe cost LA a title in the next 2 years. Can someone tell me what players LA brings in the off-season to become a contender if Kobe takes only 15 million??

Seriously, if you can't actually tell me a 2014 plan to turn LA into contenders, then you're just blowing smoke. Lebron WAS the 2014 plan, but then Ray Ray had to hit that shot. So now its about Love in 2015, and other guys like KD & Westbrook. The Lakers have no interest in taking a bunch of mid-level FAs in 2014 because THAT would screw up any chance to get those 3. Locking Kobe up keeps a Top 7 player, and they have young talent developing on that roster.

Nobody wants to answer that question because it's easier to complain and say this is terrible signing that hampers the lakers 2014 plans than argue that the lakers should sign any 2014 unrestricted FA to a max deal outside of Dirk who, if you're mad about Kobe getting 25 mill, certainly isnt worth max and Lebron, who ain't coming to LA or leaving Miami at all for that matter.

Seriously, I'd love to see the basketball arguments for signing Loul Deng to a max deal or Luke Ridnour. The only unrestricted FA the lakers had a chance at in 2014 that mattered is Carmelo and I don't know if people have been following the lakers recently but their coach is Mike Dantoni. And even if they can convince Melo to play for MDA again, they have the money to sign him to a max deal. I really don't see how this deal is so doom and gloom for the Lakers or puts them in a worse position basketball wise or money wise than they've been in for the last few years.

As for people claiming they don't see the plan, Good. You're not supposed to see the plan. Did any of you see the Kwame for Pau trade coming? Did anyone see the Pau for Chris Paul trade coming? Hell, even hypothetical Bynum for Dwight deals were deemed impossible on this forum before it happened.

If you're not a Lakers fan, don't worry about it. If you are, trust in management to put a good team out there as soon as they can. We ain't the bucks. We ain't the bobacts. We're the Lakers.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I asked earlier in this thread WHO the lakers can't get because of Kobe's contract, and still no answer. i even posted the 2014 FA list. The reality is that LA wasn't giving out 2 max contracts because.......they aren't 2 players worth it in 2014.

That's only one aspect. In giving all of that cap room to Kobe it also impairs trades that may require them to take salary back. They got Gasol from a team dumping salary.

Seriously, if you can't actually tell me a 2014 plan to turn LA into contenders, then you're just blowing smoke. Lebron WAS the 2014 plan, but then Ray Ray had to hit that shot. So now its about Love in 2015, and other guys like KD & Westbrook. The Lakers have no interest in taking a bunch of mid-level FAs in 2014 because THAT would screw up any chance to get those 3. Locking Kobe up keeps a Top 7 player, and they have young talent developing on that roster.

What we are telling you is that by overpaying they are pretty much saying there is no plan. If they want to keep any of that young talent they are developing it's going to quickly erode that sum they are holding. So you tell us who they are going to keep and at what salary.

1) Pau's expiring is LA's only trade asset, and Kobe's contract doesn't hurt any potential trade at all. Again, LA is not looking to fill the roster with mid-level players, they want stars.

2) The plan is to go after Love or Melo(not a fan fo this), and KD or Westbrook. Maybe a Irving can be had, but who knows. LA will keep some players from this roster, but the focus is to get impact players.

At the end of the day there are only a handful of legit All-NBA caliber players out there. There are hundreds of mid-level guys that can be had.

[mopper8]

I asked earlier in this thread WHO the lakers can't get because of Kobe's contract, and still no answer. i even posted the 2014 FA list. The reality is that LA wasn't giving out 2 max contracts because.......they aren't 2 players worth it in 2014.

People last week were saying LA should have amnestied Kobe, and that they should tank for Wiggins. Now we have the usual suspects acting like Kobe cost LA a title in the next 2 years. Can someone tell me what players LA brings in the off-season to become a contender if Kobe takes only 15 million??

Seriously, if you can't actually tell me a 2014 plan to turn LA into contenders, then you're just blowing smoke. Lebron WAS the 2014 plan, but then Ray Ray had to hit that shot. So now its about Love in 2015, and other guys like KD & Westbrook. The Lakers have no interest in taking a bunch of mid-level FAs in 2014 because THAT would screw up any chance to get those 3. Locking Kobe up keeps a Top 7 player, and they have young talent developing on that roster.

Nobody wants to answer that question because it's easier to complain and say this is terrible signing that hampers the lakers 2014 plans than argue that the lakers should sign any 2014 unrestricted FA to a max deal outside of Dirk who, if you're mad about Kobe getting 25 mill, certainly isnt worth max and Lebron, who ain't coming to LA or leaving Miami at all for that matter.

Seriously, I'd love to see the basketball arguments for signing Loul Deng to a max deal or Luke Ridnour. The only unrestricted FA the lakers had a chance at in 2014 that mattered is Carmelo and I don't know if people have been following the lakers recently but their coach is Mike Dantoni. And even if they can convince Melo to play for MDA again, they have the money to sign him to a max deal. I really don't see how this deal is so doom and gloom for the Lakers or puts them in a worse position basketball wise or money wise than they've been in for the last few years.

As for people claiming they don't see the plan, Good. You're not supposed to see the plan. Did any of you see the Kwame for Pau trade coming? Did anyone see the Pau for Chris Paul trade coming? Hell, even hypothetical Bynum for Dwight deals were deemed impossible on this forum before it happened.

If you're not a Lakers fan, don't worry about it. If you are, trust in management to put a good team out there as soon as they can. We ain't the bucks. We ain't the bobacts. We're the Lakers.

A lot of this argument seems to boil down to trying to avoid the basic fact that improving the team with Kobe making 23 million is harder than improving the team with Kobe making 15 million (a salary far more commensurate with a guy of his skill level, at his age, coming off a major surgery...it might even be a little high if you're going to sign him before he plays a single game post-surgery). The "name 1 player" argument is a dodge; you don't know who will come available for trades, and extra space can facilitate trades that are otherwise unavailable. The future is uncertain, and so the more flexibility you have, the better. Full stop.

If the Lakers have a plan that doesn't involve Gasol, well, renouncing him opens up X capspace, which is good. X capspace + 8M extra is better though! That extra 8 can be used to re-sign guys like Henry without impacting their space compared to what it will be with Kobe's new deal.

Bottom line is, there is no world in which it is better for the Lakers' title chances to be paying Kobe 23M instead of 15M. It is at best even, and in those scenarios, you're basically saying that the Lakers don't actually have realistic title chances in the foreseeable future, so might as well pay him out! Kobe wasn't worth 23M in terms of on court performance before the injury, so it seems incredibly unlikely that he'll be worth it afterwards (he's not gonna be the best player in the L in any of the next 3 seasons, and he might not even be top-10; the injury makes things very uncertain).

The best justification for the contract is Henry Abbott's IMO

Henry Abbott, TrueHoop: I heard some talk about a three- or four-year deal at numbers like his old $30 million salary. By comparison, two years closer to $20 million per year is wonderful for the Lakers. For his career, the Lakers owe him far more than they have been allowed to pay him. For the next two years, he'll be so overpaid he'll keep them from contending -- maybe that's a fair trade in the big picture.

[mopper8]

Abbot, incidentally also elegantly captures the argument that this deal hurts LA's title chances:

Abbott: The next time the Lakers will be great is when Bryant's massive deal is off the books. This is a league where at least a dozen players are far better, and they all make far less money. There's almost no way for the Lakers to solve that puzzle, especially now that the collective bargaining agreement has closed the loopholes whereby rich teams used to be able to overpay for some other superstar to ride in and save the day.

[Tacoma]

What a gold mine of a thread. I probably wasted at least three hours reading this, but it was worth it.

Couple things here:...
* If someone approached Tim Duncan before the start of last season and asked him this question:

Tim, would you feel ok about having taken a pay cut if the end result is to put you in a position in The Finals where if one of two of your teammates makes a free throw (if the two players, combined, simply go 1-2 on two FTA) then you win both a ring and FMVP?

...my guess is that Duncan would answer "yes, I'm good with that."
...

There's a big difference though between the finances of the Spurs and the Lakers, with the Lakers having a ton more money to throw around. Kobe claims there were no negotiations, the Lakers put the offer (including plan to put together a contending team) on the table and he took it.

If the situation was reversed and Duncan had played for the Lakers, would he have taken a pay cut to please the richest franchise in the NBA, a billion $ company? I'm not so sure.

Frankly, I don't fault Kobe for taking this generous offer. I fault the Lakers for offering it.

[MisterWestside]

Except in today's age of power teams, the Lakers can't just acquire "mid-level" players. They need talent on that roster.

[Higga]

I would have just let his contract expire and rebuild around youth and more cap space, but Kobe should be a Laker for life. I don't want to see him in another team's uniform.

[ak7]

What a gold mine of a thread. I probably wasted at least three hours reading this, but it was worth it.

Couple things here:

* There has never been a player in the history of the league, to my knowledge, who averaged 20.0 PPG or more in his 19th season or beyond. Do I think Kobe will break that mold? Yes. Is it a risky bet to take for someone coming off of major surgery and who will be 36 years old next year? Perhaps. And no, Kobe does not need to score 20.0+ PPG to earn his new contract, IMO. But as Kobe is probably most known as a scorer, looking at how other scorers have fared late in their careers might be instructive to determine where things could be headed for Kobe as a player.

* This season, Kobe Bryant will become the perimeter player with the most career minutes in NBA history to ever start an NBA season. Kidd has like 2200 or so more career minutes on his resume than does Kobe, but he started out last season slightly behind where Kobe is now in career minutes.

* If someone approached Tim Duncan before the start of last season and asked him this question:

Tim, would you feel ok about having taken a pay cut if the end result is to put you in a position in The Finals where if one of two of your teammates makes a free throw (if the two players, combined, simply go 1-2 on two FTA) then you win both a ring and FMVP?

...my guess is that Duncan would answer "yes, I'm good with that."

* If you examine this thread to this point in time, in its totality, the general tone of who is playing "defense" and who is playing "offense" seems fairly clear IMO. Usually when a person or group of people plays "defense," there is a reason why they are playing defense. Or at least a reason why they feel they need to play defense. I'm not saying that the "playing offense" side of the argument here is in the right, but I think there might be a reason why the "defense" side is playing defense, at least on first glance at the details of this contract extension.

My feelings on this matter -- who is playing "defense" and who is playing "offense" in this thread regarding the issue of the contract extension -- are similar to when I read the supposed Instagram message Kobe wrote to the person who questioned his motives or priorities, a supposed message which was posted earlier in the thread.

This column also has the feeling, to me, of what might be termed "playing defense" or "damage control:"

http://yhoo.it/1cMobq4

Between his signature on a two-year, $48.5 million contract extension and a cross-country flight to the East Coast on Monday, Kobe Bryant was left befuddled and bemused by those who declared him greedy and uncaring about chasing championships.

*
*
*

Finally, if you don't like Kobe Bryant or the "myth" that you might feel that has been built up around Kobe Bryant -- and that view has been ably presented in this thread, IMO -- then I would think that you might view this contract extension as something like a "gift from the gods." Because now everything you may have tried to unsuccessfully convince people of in the past regarding Kobe could have become instantaneously easier to get across to those same people going forward.

So, Kobe wins with the big new deal. Kobe Fans win because Kobe remains with the team and he will be (apparently) the highest paid player in the league for the next two years. Kobe Critics win because now they have apparent ammunition with which they can use to try to blast Kobe as a selfish player who really isn't as concerned with winning as he supposedly was made out to be. Lakers Haters win because they feel, it seems, the team will be irrelevant for the next few years. I win because I get to sit back and waste hours reading threads and articles like this one while doing my Michael Jackson impersonation:



The only group of people who apparently may not win with this extension are the Lakers-Not-Kobe-First Fans who may not think this deal is in the best interests of the team.

For this last group of people, you have my sincere sympathies. This contract extension very nearly seemed to be a win-win-win for everyone involved, except for your number.

And though I feel your pain, I'm still going to kick on back, Michael Jackson-style, and chomp on my popcorn while enjoying the festivities as they play themselves out.

I think your enjoying this way too much. An its not even a for sure thing that the Lakers are gonna completely stink in these upcoming seasons. For one they can still sign another Max contract with a bunch of vet deal fill ins.

Also the lakers are a billion dollar franchise, yes I checked. They are worth in the BILLIONS. Therefore any new CBA tax penalties if they were willing to go in that direction would be paid off with no hesitations. Jerry Buss' inheritance is in the billions. An thats not even considering the billions of dollars the Lakers Brand brings in worldwide.

SO as a Celtic fan first I would recommend you to settle down on your parade you and many others are throwing. The Lakers aren't dead in the water yet. An as history repeats itself I'd be damned these bastards gets a couple more bones thrown there way and all of a sudden there back in the Finals fighting someway somehow.

An I noticed your a Rockets fan. LoL! You do realize Kobe has 3 more championships than your entire franchise?
An also has brought in maybe 3 times as much more money to the NBA than your entire franchise as well.

Rockets fans think they have something over the Lakers franchise because they signed that big man who isn't worth max money and can't hit a free throw to save his life. In all reality, that franchise in Houston comparatively speaking is nothing more than a cockroach when put in the same sentence as the Lakers.

Us Lakers fans, laugh and then point at the rafters above the Staples Center court and typically the Rockets fan shuts up.

[mopper8]

What a gold mine of a thread. I probably wasted at least three hours reading this, but it was worth it.

Couple things here:...
* If someone approached Tim Duncan before the start of last season and asked him this question:

Tim, would you feel ok about having taken a pay cut if the end result is to put you in a position in The Finals where if one of two of your teammates makes a free throw (if the two players, combined, simply go 1-2 on two FTA) then you win both a ring and FMVP?

...my guess is that Duncan would answer "yes, I'm good with that."
...

There's a big difference though between the finances of the Spurs and the Lakers, with the Lakers having a ton more money to throw around. Kobe claims there were no negotiations, the Lakers put the offer (including plan to put together a contending team) on the table and he took it.

If the situation was reversed and Duncan had played for the Lakers, would he have taken a pay cut to please the richest franchise in the NBA, a billion $ company? I'm not so sure.

Frankly, I don't fault Kobe for taking this generous offer. I fault the Lakers for offering it.

This matters far less under the new CBA, as it's extremely difficult to go significantly over the cap without acquiring players via trade or re-signing your own guys with Bird Rights.

[Frosty]

1) Pau's expiring is LA's only trade asset, and Kobe's contract doesn't hurt any potential trade at all. Again, LA is not looking to fill the roster with mid-level players, they want stars.

If you have 10 million free under the cap you don't only have Gasol's contract. You can trade a $6 million guy for a $16 mil guy to a team that wants to unload salary.

Let's say Kevin Love gets disgruntled during the 2015 season and Minny wants to unload salary in anticipation of having to pay Rubio and avoid the tax. LA positions a Gasol that is signed to a 6 mil deal or another player and $10 mil in cap space and absorb Love's contract. Avoiding free agency and avoiding losing out on a trade they can't particiapte in.

[An Unbiased Fan]

If the Lakers have a plan that doesn't involve Gasol, well, renouncing him opens up X capspace, which is good. X capspace + 8M extra is better though! That extra 8 can be used to re-sign guys like Henry without impacting their space compared to what it will be with Kobe's new deal.

But again, using an extra 8 mil to sign a Henry and other mid-level guys doesn't make LA a title team. LA has had no problem getting Henry, Shannon Brown, Ariza type players. They're a bunch of these guys out there. LA already has Kobe/Young too, so I'm not sure spending 8 mil on a likely 3 or more contracts for Henry would be a good idea capwise.

Except in today's age of power teams, the Lakers can't just acquire "mid-level" players. They need talent on that roster.

Didn't people say this last year with the Lakers when they picked them to be horrible? The Lakers have never had problems getting mid-level guys. The focus however, should be star/impact players because they're a premium.

[Kurosawa0]

People are going a little crazy with this. Letting Kobe have a victory lap with the franchise isn't really that big of a deal. The Lakers will be fun to watch and will probably be a fringe playoff team ala the Mavs and Dirk. Just like Cuban, I don't blame the Lakers for wanting to put off the painful rebuild for a few years.

[CharlieMurphy]

Nobody wants to answer that question because it's easier to complain and say this is terrible signing that hampers the lakers 2014 plans than argue that the lakers should sign any 2014 unrestricted FA to a max deal outside of Dirk who, if you're mad about Kobe getting 25 mill, certainly isnt worth max and Lebron, who ain't coming to LA or leaving Miami at all for that matter.

Seriously, I'd love to see the basketball arguments for signing Loul Deng to a max deal or Luke Ridnour. The only unrestricted FA the lakers had a chance at in 2014 that mattered is Carmelo and I don't know if people have been following the lakers recently but their coach is Mike Dantoni. And even if they can convince Melo to play for MDA again, they have the money to sign him to a max deal. I really don't see how this deal is so doom and gloom for the Lakers or puts them in a worse position basketball wise or money wise than they've been in for the last few years.

As for people claiming they don't see the plan, Good. You're not supposed to see the plan. Did any of you see the Kwame for Pau trade coming? Did anyone see the Pau for Chris Paul trade coming? Hell, even hypothetical Bynum for Dwight deals were deemed impossible on this forum before it happened.

If you're not a Lakers fan, don't worry about it. If you are, trust in management to put a good team out there as soon as they can. We ain't the bucks. We ain't the bobacts. We're the Lakers.

A lot of this argument seems to boil down to trying to avoid the basic fact that improving the team with Kobe making 23 million is harder than improving the team with Kobe making 15 million (a salary far more commensurate with a guy of his skill level, at his age, coming off a major surgery...it might even be a little high if you're going to sign him before he plays a single game post-surgery). The "name 1 player" argument is a dodge; you don't know who will come available for trades, and extra space can facilitate trades that are otherwise unavailable. The future is uncertain, and so the more flexibility you have, the better. Full stop.

If the Lakers have a plan that doesn't involve Gasol, well, renouncing him opens up X capspace, which is good. X capspace + 8M extra is better though! That extra 8 can be used to re-sign guys like Henry without impacting their space compared to what it will be with Kobe's new deal.

Bottom line is, there is no world in which it is better for the Lakers' title chances to be paying Kobe 23M instead of 15M. It is at best even, and in those scenarios, you're basically saying that the Lakers don't actually have realistic title chances in the foreseeable future, so might as well pay him out! Kobe wasn't worth 23M in terms of on court performance before the injury, so it seems incredibly unlikely that he'll be worth it afterwards (he's not gonna be the best player in the L in any of the next 3 seasons, and he might not even be top-10; the injury makes things very uncertain).

The best justification for the contract is Henry Abbott's IMO

Henry Abbott, TrueHoop: I heard some talk about a three- or four-year deal at numbers like his old $30 million salary. By comparison, two years closer to $20 million per year is wonderful for the Lakers. For his career, the Lakers owe him far more than they have been allowed to pay him. For the next two years, he'll be so overpaid he'll keep them from contending -- maybe that's a fair trade in the big picture.

Look, I think we all understand that there's no world where paying a player 23million is better than paying them 15 million. There's also no world where paying 15 million is better than paying 1 million. The Lakers FO looked at their options and then offered Kobe 25 million a year.

This discussion really boils down to people wanting to tell the lakers FO how to use their money and make moves. These are people who are so far removed from basketball operations that they sit at a computer and have lengthy discussions on the drastic impact of a player's signing on a team's flexibility without having any first hand knowledge of internal discussion or goals.

I'm just saying it's pretty weird for us to be trying to tell the lakers what to do with their money. And to critcize this team for the moves it makes is even weirder considering that over the last 2 decades the lakers have been able to make tremendous moves despite any inflexibility due to cap space.

[An Unbiased Fan]

1) Pau's expiring is LA's only trade asset, and Kobe's contract doesn't hurt any potential trade at all. Again, LA is not looking to fill the roster with mid-level players, they want stars.

If you have 10 million free under the cap you don't only have Gasol's contract. You can trade a $6 million guy for a $16 mil guy to a team that wants to unload salary.

Let's say Kevin Love gets disgruntled during the 2015 season and Minny wants to unload salary in anticipation of having to pay Rubio and avoid the tax. LA positions a Gasol that is signed to a 6 mil deal or another player and $10 mil in cap space and absorb Love's contract. Avoiding free agency and avoiding losing out on a trade they can't particiapte in.

Bro, why in the World would LA want to take on a 16m salary? Minny isn't trading Pau for Love, maybe a few years ago, but not anymore.

LA still has cap room to sign another max player AND go after Love in 2015 with Kobe's contract.

[microfib4thewin]

That extra 8 can be used to re-sign guys like Henry

[MisterWestside]

Didn't people say this last year with the Lakers when they picked them to be horrible?

Doesn't change the fact. Right now they're a "meh" team, and "meh" doesn't get you anywhere in the West.

[mopper8]

That extra 8 can be used to re-sign guys like Henry

LOL it could be him or whoever. The basic point that seems undeniably true to me is that 23M to Kobe < 23M to (Kobe + other guys)

[Biased_Fan6425]

Lakers did overpay but...

If you were Kobe would you agree with that extension?

The lakers offered that insane money and he just accepted it...

I'm mad at that extension but the FO must be blamed and not Kobe.

What do you expect Kobe to say? I dont want 24 Mil. but I want 15 Mil??

[An Unbiased Fan]

Didn't people say this last year with the Lakers when they picked them to be horrible?

Doesn't change the fact. Right now they're a "meh" team, and "meh" doesn't get you anywhere in the West.

They would be a "meh" team if Kobe hadn't signed this contract, what's your point? LA's best bet is to go after guys Love, KD, Westbrook, Melo.

Worrying about interchangeable guys like Henry, Farmar, Kaman, is pointless.