Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[TheGOATRises007]

He didn't have a rival or an obstacle in the 90s.
Russell Had Wilt
Magic had Bird
Lebron had the Spurs and the Warriors

He had one in the 80s and early 90s in the Pistons.

[trueballer7]

Lebron's literally played arguably just as well as mj vs a much better team in the warriors the last three seasons. It's **** hilarious using the fact that jordan won to dismiss that and then ignore that bill russel's won twce as many rings, made twice as many finals and would have twice as much of everything if the awards existed at the time because there were less teams and talent(even though there were less teams and talent in mj's time than lebron's)...

Jordan' being the goat is based on extreme cherrypicking. Lebron's peak regular season, playoff runs, and final can stand up to any of jordan's best. Kareem and Bill Russel both unquestionably had more team success. And Kareem and lebron have more mvp's and all star selections respectively.

Jordan cannot stand up to Lebron or Kareem's playoff or regular season longeitivity and he can't stand up to russel or kareem's winning. His case is honestly the weakest of the 4.

Honestly I think Jordan has a weak case for top 30. I can think of at least 30 other players that played more years than he did.

Its pretty obvious that he should have never even been a starter on those Bulls teams. Good thing we have all these really smart Lebron fans, who I'm sure saw MJ play in tons of games, to remind us just how pathetic he was.

He wasnt pathetic but he sure was overrated due to beating a lot of teams and players. Which doesnt make sense, but only if you think about it

[ImSlower]

With the same logic, Jordan would have been even better as well.

These weekly "past players vs current players" threads are insufferable for both sides. Theres a whole Player Comparison forum - I wish they were just automatically moved there.

[LKN]

Today's NBA players are definetly better than MJ'S era. Jordan would have a tough time if he was guarded by guys like Kawhi, Lebron, Durant, Giannis. Other guys like PJ Tucker, Marcus Smart, etc

Almost every single one of those guys is a terrible choice to guard MJ. Guys with size almost never gave him trouble because his first step and lateral quickness was so insane. He'd blow by all those guys at will. (which is what he did when he played).

The only guys that ever bothered MJ were the smaller guys who could stay in front of him. Believe it or not someone like Eric Bledsoe would probably give him more trouble.

[tondi123]

Honestly I think Jordan has a weak case for top 30. I can think of at least 30 other players that played more years than he did.

Its pretty obvious that he should have never even been a starter on those Bulls teams. Good thing we have all these really smart Lebron fans, who I'm sure saw MJ play in tons of games, to remind us just how pathetic he was.

He wasnt pathetic but he sure was overrated due to beating a lot of teams and players. Which doesnt make sense, but only if you think about it

Yeah the fact he dominated everyone like nobody else in the modern era was clearly because he was playing against inferior players. The third of today's NBA, that would still have been in college in MJs days, make the modern game far superior and, therefore, tougher to dominate. Its so obvious.

[tondi123]

Today's NBA players are definetly better than MJ'S era. Jordan would have a tough time if he was guarded by guys like Kawhi, Lebron, Durant, Giannis. Other guys like PJ Tucker, Marcus Smart, etc

Almost every single one of those guys is a terrible choice to guard MJ. Guys with size almost never gave him trouble because his first step and lateral quickness was so insane. He'd blow by all those guys at will. (which is what he did when he played).

The only guys that ever bothered MJ were the smaller guys who could stay in front of him. Believe it or not someone like Eric Bledsoe would probably give him more trouble.

Good thing for MJ there werent any bigger or longer players back then. Or if there were, that nobody ever considered guarding him with one. He really dodged that bullet. I mean even Marcus Smart would have shut his ass down.

[OdomFan]

Tougher competition these days = a bunch of players joining up in their prime. I'm glad that kind of cheap competition didn't exist in the 90s.

[freethedevil]

Lebron's literally played arguably just as well as mj vs a much better team in the warriors the last three seasons. It's **** hilarious using the fact that jordan won to dismiss that and then ignore that bill russel's won twce as many rings, made twice as many finals and would have twice as much of everything if the awards existed at the time because there were less teams and talent(even though there were less teams and talent in mj's time than lebron's)...

Jordan' being the goat is based on extreme cherrypicking. Lebron's peak regular season, playoff runs, and final can stand up to any of jordan's best. Kareem and Bill Russel both unquestionably had more team success. And Kareem and lebron have more mvp's and all star selections respectively.

Jordan cannot stand up to Lebron or Kareem's playoff or regular season longeitivity and he can't stand up to russel or kareem's winning. His case is honestly the weakest of the 4.

Honestly I think Jordan has a weak case for top 30. I can think of at least 30 other players that played more years than he did.

Its pretty obvious that he should have never even been a starter on those Bulls teams. Good thing we have all these really smart Lebron fans, who I'm sure saw MJ play in tons of games, to remind us just how pathetic he was.

So you don't have an argument then?

Surely the greatest player ever is the greatest at something?

Winning?
Induvidual impact?
Accumluative value?
MVP's?
FMVP'S?
All nba or all star selections?
MVP shares?

I can argue for lebron having the best
-> peak
-> playoff longeitivty
-> accumulative value
I can argue for russell having
-> the most titles
-> the most fmvps(because he was the best player on each of his title runs)

Jordan has one thing you could argue for: peak. And that's something you could argue for
-> Shaq
-> Lebron
-> Russell

Explain to me why you have jordan as the goat. Because fmvp's didn't exist when russel played?

[freethedevil]

Tougher competition these days = a bunch of players joining up in their prime. I'm glad that kind of cheap competition didn't exist in the 90s.

I'm sorry, are you seriously trying to argue that the average player isn't beter when the talent pool is vastly bigger domestically and in terms of foreign talent? When coaches and players have had 20 years to improve their effectiveness at playing basketball?

Why is it so hard for oldschool bballers to admit that **** gets better over time?

And LMMAAAAAO at "a bunch of player sjoining up in their prime." Are we really going to be revisionist about how the 90's bulls were the gsw of their era having multiple all sttar calibre players in an era where the rest of the league had 1? Seriously, Scottie Pippens is one of two players (the other is lebron) to lead his team in every single stat.

The ultimare issue here is literally the only way jordan's argument of 6 ring and 6 mvp's hold up is by discounting bill russel's career. And it's nothing but a double standard to argue that we should ignore russel due to era and that we shouldn't do the same for mj's 6 rings compared to lebron's 3.

[GYK]

people are confusing the fact Mike and Co. got their team to be the best/favorites meaning he beat inferior competition.
he beat a 58, 57, 62, 64, 64 and 62 win teams. he beat multiple MVP's and all stars. it's weird he's being penalized for being the Warriors or Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I get Lebron may have faced tougher teams but he(well his team more so than him) was the underdog.
basketball is simple. most/best playmakers win. best player likely to win. best player with the best support is a dynasty. Jordan was the best player with best support. Lebron was just the best player. Kareem been both. Wilt was more like Lebron. no one else really has claim to be the best player that's not largely championship contextual.

[OdomFan]

Surely the greatest player ever doesn't get embarrassed over and over like Lebron has throughout his career. You can sweep it under the rug all you want but people outside of his fanbase never will.

[freethedevil]

Surely the greatest player ever doesn't get embarrassed over and over like Lebron has throughout his career. .

Are you referring to 2011? Why would we bring up lebron's 9th best final performance when jordan's only made it to 6?

[freethedevil]

people are confusing the fact Mike and Co. got their team to be the best/favorites meaning he beat inferior competition.
he beat a 58, 57, 62, 64, 64 and 62 win teams. he beat multiple MVP's and all stars. it's weird he's being penalized for being the Warriors or Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I get Lebron may have faced tougher teams but he(well his team more so than him) was the underdog.
basketball is simple. most/best playmakers win. best player likely to win. best player with the best support is a dynasty. Jordan was the best player with best support. Lebron was just the best player. Kareem been both. Wilt was more like Lebron. no one else really has claim to be the best player that's not largely championship contextual.

basketball is simple. Kareem and russell won more than jordan.

/thread.

[freethedevil]

And Jordan still led the NBA in 40-point games in the 2001-02 season despite only playing 60 games.

If the debate was "GOAT scorer" this might be a compelling argument. Alas, Jordan very clearly worse as an overall player in the 2000's in the 90's so I'm not sure what you're gunning for here.

[Ben Simmons]

And Jordan still led the NBA in 40-point games in the 2001-02 season despite only playing 60 games.

If the debate was "GOAT scorer" this might be a compelling argument. Alas, Jordan very clearly worse as an overall player in the 2000's in the 90's so I'm not sure what you're gunning for here.

He did it against the toughest rules in NBA history - early 2000s - zone defense and hand-checking, that's the argument, the most difficult era to score in ever
Any clown can score big when there is no hand-checking.

[GYK]

people are confusing the fact Mike and Co. got their team to be the best/favorites meaning he beat inferior competition.
he beat a 58, 57, 62, 64, 64 and 62 win teams. he beat multiple MVP's and all stars. it's weird he's being penalized for being the Warriors or Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I get Lebron may have faced tougher teams but he(well his team more so than him) was the underdog.
basketball is simple. most/best playmakers win. best player likely to win. best player with the best support is a dynasty. Jordan was the best player with best support. Lebron was just the best player. Kareem been both. Wilt was more like Lebron. no one else really has claim to be the best player that's not largely championship contextual.

basketball is simple. Kareem and russell won more than jordan.

/thread.

I guess you can say that. contextually I put Kareem as most playmakers win. and Kareem more so best player best supporting cast.

[OdomFan]

Surely the greatest player ever doesn't get embarrassed over and over like Lebron has throughout his career. .

Are you referring to 2011? Why would we bring up lebron's 9th best final performance when jordan's only made it to 6?

Performance don't be squat if you fail to lead the team to victory. Fact is he's failed to lead with more than enough help around him multiple times. Has gotten swept. Lost in 2011 after predicting not 1, not 2, blah, blah. Failed to lead against the Spurs in 2014 in embarrasing fashion. Sorry but that's not the resume of a man whos supposed to be better than everyone else in history.

Michael Jordan is the better player and leader period.

[OdomFan]

Lebrons competition isn't even better than Shaq and Kobes early 2000s rivals. Put any team Lebron played on up against the early 2000 Spurs, Kings, Blazers, Pacers and lets see how successful he turns out. I predict 0 championships.

[LKN]

people are confusing the fact Mike and Co. got their team to be the best/favorites meaning he beat inferior competition.
he beat a 58, 57, 62, 64, 64 and 62 win teams. he beat multiple MVP's and all stars. it's weird he's being penalized for being the Warriors or Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I get Lebron may have faced tougher teams but he(well his team more so than him) was the underdog.
basketball is simple. most/best playmakers win. best player likely to win. best player with the best support is a dynasty. Jordan was the best player with best support. Lebron was just the best player. Kareem been both. Wilt was more like Lebron. no one else really has claim to be the best player that's not largely championship contextual.

basketball is simple. Kareem and russell won more than jordan.

/thread.

You should stop posting... KAJ and MJ have the same number of titles.

You are either trolling or too dumb to use google.

[freethedevil]

people are confusing the fact Mike and Co. got their team to be the best/favorites meaning he beat inferior competition.
he beat a 58, 57, 62, 64, 64 and 62 win teams. he beat multiple MVP's and all stars. it's weird he's being penalized for being the Warriors or Shaq/Kobe Lakers. I get Lebron may have faced tougher teams but he(well his team more so than him) was the underdog.
basketball is simple. most/best playmakers win. best player likely to win. best player with the best support is a dynasty. Jordan was the best player with best support. Lebron was just the best player. Kareem been both. Wilt was more like Lebron. no one else really has claim to be the best player that's not largely championship contextual.

basketball is simple. Kareem and russell won more than jordan.

/thread.

You should stop posting... KAJ and MJ have the same number of titles.

Same amount of titles, 4 more finals.Who won more?