2017 Isaiah Thomas is better than any version of Iverson.

[sfam]

No, Iverson in this era with the current rules would be on another level. Remember he played in a slow paced era with hand checking and 7 foot shot blockers lurking in the paint.

THIS.

Data is irrelevant because the game has changed. IT would have been pounded into mush in that time frame. That whiny "Refs save me from those mean people" press conference IT gave after game four? That would be his daily faire. No, not even close. Not even a little.

[Hello Brooklyn]

This thread looks silly now.

Maybe we shouldn't overreact to one game.

[RaptorRed]

In terms of purely a shooting efficiency standpoint yes, marginally. Doesn't mean better scorer though. Jordan was a more consistent volume scorer and couldn't be guarded nearly as easily. He faced entire defenses. Isaiah doesn't deal with that (neither did Iverson).

The comparison is dumb because with Iverson we aren't talking about elite efficiency vs outstanding. We are talking about elite vs pretty awful. In a Jordan comparison you're also talking about the best perimeter defender of all time arguably and huge intangibles and clutch.

Iverson's issue in a comparison is he doesn't offer anything outside of volume scoring. He has a barely better than 1/1 assist to turnover ratio many season of his prime. He's a mediocre defender. He's small and can't crash the glass. Then you combine that with inefficient offense on top of it. So what big value does Iverson add other than a guy who can literally put up 40 shots any given game and make maybe 14 or 15 of those?

Your Iverson/IT argument is based mostly off trying to compare the two "In terms of purely a shooting efficiency standpoint" without any context and use that to say that Thomas was better this season than any of Iverson's seasons (you also largely hinge it on per36 stats lol). You literally can't disagree with that last post without undermining your entire argument about the original topic. How was Jordan a "more consistent volume scorer" who "couldn't be guarded nearly as easily" during his title years if he was shooting at least 4% lower TS% than IT did this year in all but one of the seasons (closest is about -2%) and also would have scored fewer points per game in all of them if he played the same minutes as IT (the actual ppg gap was no bigger than that of Iverson/IT best seasons)? The objective evidence says that it clearly isn't the case that MJ was a better scorer during those years. If MJ was the better scorer he would have been more efficient and scored more per minute than IT did. Remember, you aren't allowed to use context in this discussion, so its just an objective fact that IT was a better scorer this season than MJ was during his title years and there is no argument you can make to dispute that. It doesn't matter if you "feel" that Michael Jordan was the better scorer during those years due to nostalgia or fanboyism or whatever. The numbers clearly say otherwise.

This thread is a joke tbh and should be taken about as seriously as my last post.

Yes, in terms of strictly pure scoring and scoring only - Thomas' 30.8 pp/36 in a on 62.5% TS in a league where the offensive environment yielded a league average 55.2% TS is marginally better than the Jordan season 30.6pp36 with a 60.5 TS% in an offensvie environment of 53.7%TS and clearly better than 29.8pp36 with a 56.4 TS% in an offensive environment where league average was 53.6% TS. The first season Jordan season is very close but not quite as good, and the second season is clearly worse.

In terms of overall player Jordan has vast advantages in most other aspects of the game resulting in his being a far superior overall player - but in terms of pure scoring - this 2017 IT season was better than either of the 2 Jordan seasons referenced. Allen Iverson doesn’t have any seasons particularly close to this IT one in terms of scoring efficiency and output relative to environment and doesn’t enjoy a big enough advantage in other aspects of the game to make any of his seasons as good as the 2017 IT season though the gap between them defensively does make it close.

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

[Braggins]

Your Iverson/IT argument is based mostly off trying to compare the two "In terms of purely a shooting efficiency standpoint" without any context and use that to say that Thomas was better this season than any of Iverson's seasons (you also largely hinge it on per36 stats lol). You literally can't disagree with that last post without undermining your entire argument about the original topic. How was Jordan a "more consistent volume scorer" who "couldn't be guarded nearly as easily" during his title years if he was shooting at least 4% lower TS% than IT did this year in all but one of the seasons (closest is about -2%) and also would have scored fewer points per game in all of them if he played the same minutes as IT (the actual ppg gap was no bigger than that of Iverson/IT best seasons)? The objective evidence says that it clearly isn't the case that MJ was a better scorer during those years. If MJ was the better scorer he would have been more efficient and scored more per minute than IT did. Remember, you aren't allowed to use context in this discussion, so its just an objective fact that IT was a better scorer this season than MJ was during his title years and there is no argument you can make to dispute that. It doesn't matter if you "feel" that Michael Jordan was the better scorer during those years due to nostalgia or fanboyism or whatever. The numbers clearly say otherwise.

This thread is a joke tbh and should be taken about as seriously as my last post.

Yes, in terms of strictly pure scoring and scoring only - Thomas' 30.8 pp/36 in a on 62.5% TS in a league where the offensive environment yielded a league average 55.2% TS is marginally better than the Jordan season 30.6pp36 with a 60.5 TS% in an offensvie environment of 53.7%TS and clearly better than 29.8pp36 with a 56.4 TS% in an offensive environment where league average was 53.6% TS. The first season Jordan season is very close but not quite as good, and the second season is clearly worse.

In terms of overall player Jordan has vast advantages in most other aspects of the game resulting in his being a far superior overall player - but in terms of pure scoring - this 2017 IT season was better than either of the 2 Jordan seasons referenced. Allen Iverson doesn’t have any seasons particularly close to this IT one in terms of scoring efficiency and output relative to environment and doesn’t enjoy a big enough advantage in other aspects of the game to make any of his seasons as good as the 2017 IT season though the gap between them defensively does make it close.

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

Its unbelievable lol. I didn't realize how effective my post was going to be at backing these people into a corner where they had to go completely off the rails to try to keep this absurdity going. Now they are literally just straight up saying IT is a better scorer than prime MJ and congratulating each other for it. I didn't think it was possible for this thread to get more embarrassing, but here we are. The general board is off the chain haha.

[slothrop8]

Your Iverson/IT argument is based mostly off trying to compare the two "In terms of purely a shooting efficiency standpoint" without any context and use that to say that Thomas was better this season than any of Iverson's seasons (you also largely hinge it on per36 stats lol). You literally can't disagree with that last post without undermining your entire argument about the original topic. How was Jordan a "more consistent volume scorer" who "couldn't be guarded nearly as easily" during his title years if he was shooting at least 4% lower TS% than IT did this year in all but one of the seasons (closest is about -2%) and also would have scored fewer points per game in all of them if he played the same minutes as IT (the actual ppg gap was no bigger than that of Iverson/IT best seasons)? The objective evidence says that it clearly isn't the case that MJ was a better scorer during those years. If MJ was the better scorer he would have been more efficient and scored more per minute than IT did. Remember, you aren't allowed to use context in this discussion, so its just an objective fact that IT was a better scorer this season than MJ was during his title years and there is no argument you can make to dispute that. It doesn't matter if you "feel" that Michael Jordan was the better scorer during those years due to nostalgia or fanboyism or whatever. The numbers clearly say otherwise.

This thread is a joke tbh and should be taken about as seriously as my last post.

Yes, in terms of strictly pure scoring and scoring only - Thomas' 30.8 pp/36 in a on 62.5% TS in a league where the offensive environment yielded a league average 55.2% TS is marginally better than the Jordan season 30.6pp36 with a 60.5 TS% in an offensvie environment of 53.7%TS and clearly better than 29.8pp36 with a 56.4 TS% in an offensive environment where league average was 53.6% TS. The first season Jordan season is very close but not quite as good, and the second season is clearly worse.

In terms of overall player Jordan has vast advantages in most other aspects of the game resulting in his being a far superior overall player - but in terms of pure scoring - this 2017 IT season was better than either of the 2 Jordan seasons referenced. Allen Iverson doesn’t have any seasons particularly close to this IT one in terms of scoring efficiency and output relative to environment and doesn’t enjoy a big enough advantage in other aspects of the game to make any of his seasons as good as the 2017 IT season though the gap between them defensively does make it close.

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

Of course I do - he was trying to prove a point and actually proved the opposite because he thought nobody would call him on it as he invoked the hallowed Jordan name. The truth of the matter is in terms of scoring and scoring only - which is all he was talking about - and even factoring in the context of the offensive environment in which it occurred - this IT season was greater than either of the Jordan seasons he referenced - though one was really, really close.

Jordan is my favorite player ever and has my GOAT (A) vote with LeBron still GOAT (B) - and I hate IT and the Celtics - IT is among my 5 least favorite players in the entire league - but scoring output and efficiency is what it is - the math is the math. 8 is my favorite number - but I still recognize that 10 is higher.

[Braggins]

If the league was so tough, you'd think Iverson would of developed an outside shot instead of getting hammered in the paint and taking low IQ shots.

You'd think that Michael Jordan would have developed more of an outside instead of getting hammered in the paint all the time and putting up inferior scoring efficiency compared to the GOAT scorer, who we all know is Isaiah Thomas.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Yes, in terms of strictly pure scoring and scoring only - Thomas' 30.8 pp/36 in a on 62.5% TS in a league where the offensive environment yielded a league average 55.2% TS is marginally better than the Jordan season 30.6pp36 with a 60.5 TS% in an offensvie environment of 53.7%TS and clearly better than 29.8pp36 with a 56.4 TS% in an offensive environment where league average was 53.6% TS. The first season Jordan season is very close but not quite as good, and the second season is clearly worse.

In terms of overall player Jordan has vast advantages in most other aspects of the game resulting in his being a far superior overall player - but in terms of pure scoring - this 2017 IT season was better than either of the 2 Jordan seasons referenced. Allen Iverson doesn’t have any seasons particularly close to this IT one in terms of scoring efficiency and output relative to environment and doesn’t enjoy a big enough advantage in other aspects of the game to make any of his seasons as good as the 2017 IT season though the gap between them defensively does make it close.

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

Of course I do - he was trying to prove a point and actually proved the opposite because he thought nobody would call him on it as he invoked the hallowed Jordan name. The truth of the matter is in terms of scoring and scoring only - which is all he was talking about - and even factoring in the context of the offensive environment in which it occurred - this IT season was greater than either of the Jordan seasons he referenced - though one was really, really close.

Jordan is my favorite player ever and has my GOAT (A) vote with LeBron still GOAT (B) - and I hate IT and the Celtics - IT is among my 5 least favorite players in the entire league - but scoring output and efficiency is what it is - the math is the math. 8 is my favorite number - but I still recognize that 10 is higher.

What are you doing? You're supposed to let feelings dictate your data.

To say IT was a more efficient scorer this year than Jordan isn't an opinion, it's quantifiable. What makes Jordan light years better is the all around game and the defense. Steph Curry also had an offensively superior season to Jordan among others. Jordan's greatness comes from being able to do it practically EVERY year and step up in the playoffs.

[Braggins]

Yes, in terms of strictly pure scoring and scoring only - Thomas' 30.8 pp/36 in a on 62.5% TS in a league where the offensive environment yielded a league average 55.2% TS is marginally better than the Jordan season 30.6pp36 with a 60.5 TS% in an offensvie environment of 53.7%TS and clearly better than 29.8pp36 with a 56.4 TS% in an offensive environment where league average was 53.6% TS. The first season Jordan season is very close but not quite as good, and the second season is clearly worse.

In terms of overall player Jordan has vast advantages in most other aspects of the game resulting in his being a far superior overall player - but in terms of pure scoring - this 2017 IT season was better than either of the 2 Jordan seasons referenced. Allen Iverson doesn’t have any seasons particularly close to this IT one in terms of scoring efficiency and output relative to environment and doesn’t enjoy a big enough advantage in other aspects of the game to make any of his seasons as good as the 2017 IT season though the gap between them defensively does make it close.

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

Of course I do - he was trying to prove a point and actually proved the opposite because he thought nobody would call him on it as he invoked the hallowed Jordan name. The truth of the matter is in terms of scoring and scoring only... this IT season was greater than either of the Jordan seasons he referenced - though one was really, really close.

So, are you guys having a contest to see who can facepalm the hardest?

[Braggins]

Yes, in terms of strictly pure scoring and scoring only - Thomas' 30.8 pp/36 in a on 62.5% TS in a league where the offensive environment yielded a league average 55.2% TS is marginally better than the Jordan season 30.6pp36 with a 60.5 TS% in an offensvie environment of 53.7%TS and clearly better than 29.8pp36 with a 56.4 TS% in an offensive environment where league average was 53.6% TS. The first season Jordan season is very close but not quite as good, and the second season is clearly worse.

In terms of overall player Jordan has vast advantages in most other aspects of the game resulting in his being a far superior overall player - but in terms of pure scoring - this 2017 IT season was better than either of the 2 Jordan seasons referenced. Allen Iverson doesn’t have any seasons particularly close to this IT one in terms of scoring efficiency and output relative to environment and doesn’t enjoy a big enough advantage in other aspects of the game to make any of his seasons as good as the 2017 IT season though the gap between them defensively does make it close.

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

Of course I do - he was trying to prove a point and actually proved the opposite because he thought nobody would call him on it as he invoked the hallowed Jordan name. The truth of the matter is in terms of scoring and scoring only... this IT season was greater than either of the Jordan seasons he referenced - though one was really, really close.

So, are you guys having a contest to see who can facepalm the hardest?

[OkcSinceSGA]

If the league was so tough, you'd think Iverson would of developed an outside shot instead of getting hammered in the paint and taking low IQ shots.

You'd think that Michael Jordan would have developed more of an outside instead of getting hammered in the paint all the time and putting up inferior scoring efficiency compared to the GOAT scorer, who we all know is Isaiah Thomas.

Your biggest mistake is comparing someone who's actually in the efficiency discussion vs one who's not even close. Jordan while not quite 17 IT efficiency was REALLY close at his best as already mentioned and SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient than Iverson. So I'm not sure how this proves your point. IT is ever so slightly more efficient offensively than Jordan on less volume in comparison to Iverson who actually has less volume than IT production wise AND a massive drop in efficiency.

[RaptorRed]

Yes, in terms of strictly pure scoring and scoring only - Thomas' 30.8 pp/36 in a on 62.5% TS in a league where the offensive environment yielded a league average 55.2% TS is marginally better than the Jordan season 30.6pp36 with a 60.5 TS% in an offensvie environment of 53.7%TS and clearly better than 29.8pp36 with a 56.4 TS% in an offensive environment where league average was 53.6% TS. The first season Jordan season is very close but not quite as good, and the second season is clearly worse.

In terms of overall player Jordan has vast advantages in most other aspects of the game resulting in his being a far superior overall player - but in terms of pure scoring - this 2017 IT season was better than either of the 2 Jordan seasons referenced. Allen Iverson doesn’t have any seasons particularly close to this IT one in terms of scoring efficiency and output relative to environment and doesn’t enjoy a big enough advantage in other aspects of the game to make any of his seasons as good as the 2017 IT season though the gap between them defensively does make it close.

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

Of course I do - he was trying to prove a point and actually proved the opposite because he thought nobody would call him on it as he invoked the hallowed Jordan name. The truth of the matter is in terms of scoring and scoring only - which is all he was talking about - and even factoring in the context of the offensive environment in which it occurred - this IT season was greater than either of the Jordan seasons he referenced - though one was really, really close.

Jordan is my favorite player ever and has my GOAT (A) vote with LeBron still GOAT (B) - and I hate IT and the Celtics - IT is among my 5 least favorite players in the entire league - but scoring output and efficiency is what it is - the math is the math. 8 is my favorite number - but I still recognize that 10 is higher.

I really really really hope this is post is a joke/sarcasm, but I have a feeling based on this thread that it isn't

[RaptorRed]

Lol so now from a scoring perspective Thomas is on Jordan's level ? Are you insane ? You know the poster that made that claim was joking right ?

Of course I do - he was trying to prove a point and actually proved the opposite because he thought nobody would call him on it as he invoked the hallowed Jordan name. The truth of the matter is in terms of scoring and scoring only - which is all he was talking about - and even factoring in the context of the offensive environment in which it occurred - this IT season was greater than either of the Jordan seasons he referenced - though one was really, really close.

Jordan is my favorite player ever and has my GOAT (A) vote with LeBron still GOAT (B) - and I hate IT and the Celtics - IT is among my 5 least favorite players in the entire league - but scoring output and efficiency is what it is - the math is the math. 8 is my favorite number - but I still recognize that 10 is higher.

What are you doing? You're supposed to let feelings dictate your data.

To say IT was a more efficient scorer this year than Jordan isn't an opinion, it's quantifiable. What makes Jordan light years better is the all around game and the defense. Steph Curry also had an offensively superior season to Jordan among others. Jordan's greatness comes from being able to do it practically EVERY year and step up in the playoffs.

LOL

This thread keeps getting better

[slothrop8]

If the league was so tough, you'd think Iverson would of developed an outside shot instead of getting hammered in the paint and taking low IQ shots.

You'd think that Michael Jordan would have developed more of an outside instead of getting hammered in the paint all the time and putting up inferior scoring efficiency compared to the GOAT scorer, who we all know is Isaiah Thomas.

No, Curry last year was clearly better than '17 IT. 31.7 per/36 on 66.9% TS in a 54.1%TS league average environment.

[Braggins]

If the league was so tough, you'd think Iverson would of developed an outside shot instead of getting hammered in the paint and taking low IQ shots.

You'd think that Michael Jordan would have developed more of an outside instead of getting hammered in the paint all the time and putting up inferior scoring efficiency compared to the GOAT scorer, who we all know is Isaiah Thomas.

Your biggest mistake is comparing the efficiency of Jordan and Iverson. Jordan while not quite 17 IT efficiency was REALLY close at his best as already mentioned and SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient than Iverson. So I'm not sure how this proves your point.

I actually haven't compared the efficiency of Iverson and MJ. You keep trying to do that to deflect from me pointing out the absurdity of your premise. I'm comparing the efficiency of IT and MJ and using your exact argument and criteria from your IT/Iverson comparison.

Its cool that you are of the opinion that IT is a better scorer than prime MJ. You should start a thread for that too so you can spread the light of knowledge even further than this thread has.

[OkcSinceSGA]

You'd think that Michael Jordan would have developed more of an outside instead of getting hammered in the paint all the time and putting up inferior scoring efficiency compared to the GOAT scorer, who we all know is Isaiah Thomas.

Your biggest mistake is comparing the efficiency of Jordan and Iverson. Jordan while not quite 17 IT efficiency was REALLY close at his best as already mentioned and SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient than Iverson. So I'm not sure how this proves your point.

I actually haven't compared the efficiency of Iverson and MJ. You keep trying to do that to deflect from me pointing out the absurdity of your premise. I'm comparing the efficiency of IT and MJ and using your exact argument and criteria from your IT/Iverson comparison.

Its cool that you are of the opinion that IT is a better scorer than prime MJ. You should start a thread for that too so you can spread the light of knowledge even further than this thread has.

You actually did. You substituted Jordan for Iverson in the argument as if that somehow has the same validity of Iverson vs IT. Using an extreme example and still falling short doesn't help your argument at all, it hurts it. Also just like I never said IT is a better player than Iverson in general, it will take more from IT than one slightly more efficient season than peak Jordan to call him a better scorer. Until he can do it for what 15 years+ years, I won't claim that.

What I WILL claim is that for one very specific season, IT was better than Iverson's best season.

[joeyAdaMan]

My boy Tony Romo has a higher passer rating, competition %, YPA, and TD/INT ratio than Brett Favre...so you know...Romo>>>Favre

[Braggins]

If the league was so tough, you'd think Iverson would of developed an outside shot instead of getting hammered in the paint and taking low IQ shots.

You'd think that Michael Jordan would have developed more of an outside instead of getting hammered in the paint all the time and putting up inferior scoring efficiency compared to the GOAT scorer, who we all know is Isaiah Thomas.

No, Curry last year was clearly better than '17 IT. 31.7 per/36 on 66.9% TS in a 54.1%TS league average environment.

Sorry, good point. So, the GOAT scorer list goes something like...

Curry
Durant
Harden
IT
?

Not sure about the order of Harden and IT, I haven't checked the per36 numbers (LMAO)...

[Braggins]

double post

[OkcSinceSGA]

I don't understand why mentally you guys have a huge issue separating a 1 season comparison from body of work or career standing. NOBODY arguing for IT is comparing ANYONE career wise, legacy wise or even saying IT is a better player generally speaking. We are saying he statistically had a better single season. Which isn't debatable really.

[Braggins]

Your biggest mistake is comparing the efficiency of Jordan and Iverson. Jordan while not quite 17 IT efficiency was REALLY close at his best as already mentioned and SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient than Iverson. So I'm not sure how this proves your point.

I actually haven't compared the efficiency of Iverson and MJ. You keep trying to do that to deflect from me pointing out the absurdity of your premise. I'm comparing the efficiency of IT and MJ and using your exact argument and criteria from your IT/Iverson comparison.

Its cool that you are of the opinion that IT is a better scorer than prime MJ. You should start a thread for that too so you can spread the light of knowledge even further than this thread has.

You actually did. You substituted Jordan for Iverson in the argument as if that somehow has the same validity of Iverson vs IT. Using an extreme example and still falling short doesn't help your argument at all, it hurts it. Also just like I never said IT is a better player than Iverson in general, it will take more from IT than one slightly more efficient season than peak Jordan to call him a better scorer. Until he can do it for what 15 years+ years, I won't claim that.

What I WILL claim is that for one very specific season, IT was better than Iverson's best season.

Wow, you are being incredibly dense and trying way to hard to skew the narrative. I ABSOLUTELY did not compare Iverson and MJ. I made a direct comparison between MJ/IT and never once mentioned Iverson or anything related to him (you should be able to quote me if I did). You are trying to compare Iverson and MJ as a counter to my argument to make your point look less absurd. The fact that you think anything thats been said in the last few pages has helped your argument, or hurt mine, is pretty adorable.

I'm seriously done responding now. I thought this thread had rightfully died. If you guys want to keep up it up then knock yourselves out.