Tatum VS Luka

[Mavrelous]

Shooters can have bad nights, but what's been weird this playoffs is Tatum's averaging almost the same number of TOs as Luka despite carrying significantly lower load.

Tatum is facing much better defenses, Luka is also being assigned the best defenders, but being the offense initiator, he's getting screen designed to get him the matchup he wants.

Wouldn't say he's faced much better defenses. Utah, Phoenix and Golden State are overall much better defensively than Brooklyn, Milwaukee and Miami.

Utah played traffic cones on the perimeter, PHX he abused Bridges and Johnson due to size mismatch, and targeted Paul until he destroyed him mentally, Warriors are playing great defense on him.
Bucks are great defensive team on the perimeter and at the rim, Heat also.

[rapstarter]

Tatum is facing much better defenses, Luka is also being assigned the best defenders, but being the offense initiator, he's getting screen designed to get him the matchup he wants.

Wouldn't say he's faced much better defenses. Utah, Phoenix and Golden State are overall much better defensively than Brooklyn, Milwaukee and Miami.

Utah played traffic cones on the perimeter, PHX he abused Bridges and Johnson due to size mismatch, and targeted Paul until he destroyed him mentally, Warriors are playing great defense on him.
Bucks are great defensive team on the perimeter and at the rim, Heat also.

So basically, Luka's making them look worse than they really are. That's not the same as Tatum's facing much better defenses. If you look at the entire season, Utah, Phoenix and Golden State are significantly better than the teams Tatum faced.

[Archx]

Tatum is facing much better defenses, Luka is also being assigned the best defenders, but being the offense initiator, he's getting screen designed to get him the matchup he wants.

Wouldn't say he's faced much better defenses. Utah, Phoenix and Golden State are overall much better defensively than Brooklyn, Milwaukee and Miami.

Utah played traffic cones on the perimeter, PHX he abused Bridges and Johnson due to size mismatch, and targeted Paul until he destroyed him mentally, Warriors are playing great defense on him.
Bucks are great defensive team on the perimeter and at the rim, Heat also.

Mavs and Luka found a way to abuse those teams, you can't really fault them for that lol. All these teams were great during regular season aswell. Nets have absolutely ZERO defense and no coaching, that's what Tatum faced in the 1st round for example. I think saying Tatum facing much better defenses is a bit silly.

[Mavrelous]

Mavs and Luka found a way to abuse those teams, you can't really fault them for that lol. All these teams were great during regular season aswell. Nets have absolutely ZERO defense and no coaching, that's what Tatum faced in the 1st round for example. I think saying Tatum facing much better defenses is a bit silly.

Utah was never good defensive team, Luka has the whole team picking his best matchup with multiple screens, Tatum doesn't have that.
I think Tatum is a tier below Luka, I find this abundantly clear, but I wouldn't fault Tatum for the high TO, it has valid explanation.

[playa-hater]

Now that is a hot take.. looking at a poll in which most fans are just box-score casual fans..

Poll is majority who mostly go by eye test alone. It didn´t fail this time

Nice timing on your eye test meanwhile Lucas's eye test on defense is 100% regular

[jc23]

even Bill Simmons would take Luka over Tatum

[pingpongrac]

Shooters can have bad nights, but what's been weird this playoffs is Tatum's averaging almost the same number of TOs as Luka despite carrying significantly lower load.

Tatum is facing much better defenses, Luka is also being assigned the best defenders, but being the offense initiator, he's getting screen designed to get him the matchup he wants.

UTA: 110.0 DRTG (10th), 45.3 OPP FG% (9th)
PHX: 106.8 DRTG (3rd), 44.4 OPP FG% (3rd)
GSW: 106.6 DRTG (2nd), 43.8 OPP FG% (2nd)

BKN: 112.3 DRTG (20th), 45.2 OPP FG% (7th)
PHI: 110.2 DRTG (12th), 45.6 OPP FG% (11th)
MIA: 108.4 DRTG (4th), 44.7 OPP FG% (4th)

Both the Suns and Warriors are top 3 defences by most metrics. The worst defence Luka faced was Utah and he only played 3 games in which he averaged 29 PPG on 60 TS%. Against the Suns and Warriors so far, he's averaging 32 PPG on 59 TS%. On the flip side, Tatum's best series so far was against the Nets (a middle of the pack defensive team) in which he averaged 30 PPG on 62 TS%. Against Milwaukee and Miami so far, he's averaging 26 PPG on 56 TS%. Tatum is not facing better defences and it's weird that you're using Luka taking advantage of the best defences in the league as somewhat of a negative.

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[DroseReturnChi]

Yeah I have to take everthing back about what I said about Tatum. Dude hasn't changed one bit from his previous years, he's still the same inconsistent offesive player he's always been. For every good offensive game he has, he puts up twice as many stinkers.

i dont watch tatum closely, but whenever i watch him he just never changed lol from his rookie yr. he just literally tripled his usage and never improved defensively nor playmaking what i can see. at this rate, hes going to be poor mans paul george and pg was a far superior defender and shooter. most american stars are like this they never improve attention to detail while luka has improved every facet including defense. you see euros they are fundamentally sound to the point they will never have 20% shooting nights.

[bfchs123]

Bumping Tatum back to superstardom

[JimmyFromNz]

Can this thread just die, without the bump and aggregate after every single game?

I'm a Celtics fan, Luka is better, I don't know why that would be objectively an issue.

Tatum has also taken the leap and deserves the credit he's being showered with.

There's little else to it...

[3toheadmelo]

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[BeiBeau]

Geez this thread is just filled with Celtics fans desperately trying to will Tatum into being better than Luka even though he's not. I have Luka as the 4th best player in the NBA and Tatum as the 5th but that gap is comfortable.

[Woodsanity]

Geez this thread is just filled with Celtics fans desperately trying to will Tatum into being better than Luka even though he's not. I have Luka as the 4th best player in the NBA and Tatum as the 5th but that gap is comfortable.

Tatum even at 5th is very very generous. He is a fringe top 10 player on a stacked team. He got outplayed by Butler badly and only won barely cause he had much more help. Bam only scored like 14 points in the playoffs, not gonna cut it as a second option vs Jaylen Brown who was miles better.

[Feed Your Head]

Geez this thread is just filled with Celtics fans desperately trying to will Tatum into being better than Luka even though he's not. I have Luka as the 4th best player in the NBA and Tatum as the 5th but that gap is comfortable.

Tatum even at 5th is very very generous. He is a fringe top 10 player on a stacked team. He got outplayed by Butler badly and only won barely cause he had much more help. Bam only scored like 14 points in the playoffs, not gonna cut it as a second option vs Jaylen Brown who was miles better.

You say the stacked team thing, yet they always fall off a cliff without him. Here’s their on/off for the regular season and playoffs.





I already showed you earlier in this thread that advanced stats have Tatum as a first team all nba guy, and ahead of Luka. I’m not even arguing that Tatum is better than Luka, but you asked which advanced stats showed him as better, I showed you, and you naturally didn’t reply to it.

But opinions are just that, and you seem very set in yours.

[bisme37]

NBA.com writer Shaun Powell on NBATV last night about Tatum:

"You know what he's doing? He's showing the way for Luka Doncic, For Donovan Mitchell, Nicola Jokic, Ja Morant... all those young franchise players looking to make that next step, Jayson Tatum throughout these playoffs showed them how it's done and maybe they can apply that in the future."

(Don't kill the messenger (me), Luka fans!)

[Feed Your Head]

In a game 7, on top of the 26/10/6, dude defended his ass off.

Defended Butler on 21 possessions, allowed 4 points.

Defended Lowry on 32 possessions, allowed 2 points.

Defended Bam on 10 possessions, allowed 0 points.

[BeiBeau]

NBA.com writer Shaun Powell on NBATV last night about Tatum:

"You know what he's doing? He's showing the way for Luka Doncic, For Donovan Mitchell, Nicola Jokic, Ja Morant... all those young franchise players looking to make that next step, Jayson Tatum throughout these playoffs showed them how it's done and maybe they can apply that in the future."

(Don't kill the messenger (me), Luka fans!)

Not coming to kill the messenger, I'm just coming to say that we're gonna see a lot of "Tatum has a ring therefore he's better then Luka" if the Celtics win and these bad takes are all only going to get worse.

[Texas Chuck]

NBA.com writer Shaun Powell on NBATV last night about Tatum:

"You know what he's doing? He's showing the way for Luka Doncic, For Donovan Mitchell, Nicola Jokic, Ja Morant... all those young franchise players looking to make that next step, Jayson Tatum throughout these playoffs showed them how it's done and maybe they can apply that in the future."

(Don't kill the messenger (me), Luka fans!)

I don't know Powell, and I don't know the context of those comments. But I will say I'm somewhat puzzled. None of those players can play like Tatum plays, so his game isn't a blueprint. Jokic, without I think any real arguments even from the most diehard Celtic fan, is clearly a superior player to everyone else in that list so its not just about elevating his level of play to match Tatum's.

It's almost like the generic, his team advanced the furthest and thus its all that matters. But Tatum had already proven imo that he can be a key cog on a contending level team. 3 conference Finals in 5 seasons shows us that.

I think maybe he really means those young stars are hungry for the team success Tatum has experienced, even more so if the Celtics can finish the deal. And sure, I'd agree with him there.

But while I'd love Luka to become a defensive player the level of Tatum, he's not going to. Luka is going to have to find his own path. Same with those other players listed.

[Raps in 4]

Geez this thread is just filled with Celtics fans desperately trying to will Tatum into being better than Luka even though he's not. I have Luka as the 4th best player in the NBA and Tatum as the 5th but that gap is comfortable.

Tatum even at 5th is very very generous. He is a fringe top 10 player on a stacked team. He got outplayed by Butler badly and only won barely cause he had much more help. Bam only scored like 14 points in the playoffs, not gonna cut it as a second option vs Jaylen Brown who was miles better.

Fringe top-10 player? Their impact metrics were virtually identical (Tatum > Luka according to EPM, Luka > Tatum according to RAPTOR).

Luka is a better scorer and playmaker. Tatum is a better defender.