If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[Exp0sed]

I guess his best case scenario would be something like this version of 2023 Lauri

This is how I know you dont watch Franz play. He was our starting PG for almost the first 20 games of the season and offense was run thru him and Paolo. His ast did drop once Fultz came back.

Lauri is having a breakout season in his 6th year in the league and was NEVER efficient. Prior to this year his best shooting year was his 4th year in the league and still wasnt as efficient as Franz is this year.

Not sure how many 2nd year players have averaged 20ppg 4ast 4 rebs 49%FG 35%3pt in the past 5 years so I think he deserves a lot more credit than what you are giving him.

I def didn't watch him as much or as closely as Magic fans but i've watched enough Magic games to form an opinion
i've been following basketball for many decades
I like stats as much as the next guy but you know, when you follow a sport really closely for so many years - there's also other stuff that enable you to see the bigger picture, intuition, experience etc.

players are breaking "averages" and records left and right, who cares how many 2nd year players specifically posted some arbitrary benchmark

I already said that he's best case scenarion is current Lauri, which is great i'm sure the Magic will be thrilled with that
Lauri has shown some signs of significant improvement on the Cavs last season and in the Summer when he was "the man" on Finland team he has shown that he is much more confident and capable when actually given freedom to play and create and take upon himself than he was in a limited role standing in the corner, some players are like that (most aren't btw)

Ainge gambled on that and he gambled right, but Lauri has only done this for half a season
there is no guarantee that he will be able to consistently perform at that level, say over the duration of a 4-5 year max

when he'll be in a shooting slump - he doesn't have much else to offer and if his confidence will go down - so will his decsion making and effort level (just a hunch)

can Franz become something like this year's Lauri (or better)? sure, that's possible
but here's what i'm seeing from Franz:

yes, his 2p% is very encouraging
he's very smart, he cuts very well and moves well without the ball, I would even say that he impressed me more off the ball than on it. He can score (easily, because he's got a great jumpshot and a good touch)
with today's rules and no defense culture, a 6'10 guy who can get his shot off easily and is quick enough to take guys to the rim of the dribble is very valuable

but he will never be a good rebounder or an average defender
he won't be a legit #1 on the ball
and i doubt he can find many ways to make his teammates better

i'd be shocked if those things turned out to be untrue but again - he's 20, he can be the GoaT - literally everything is still on the table for him

realistically imo, with the limited time i've watched him my early take is that in order for Franz to be the best player in this draft - all the other candidates have to bust
i'm sure some of them will bust, but not likely that all of them will
and thus it's unlikely imo that Franz will be best player from this draft when it's all said and done

but he's a great player, Lauri has been the best player on a team that was over 0.500 not long ago
he did that by having a huge offensive impact, while being a below average defender

think Trae young but with less crappy defense

if Franz were to reach these levels, i'm sure it will be in that mold as well - elite offense with subpar defense

[NYKnickerbocker]

Looks like this will end up being a deep draft full of guys with at least NBA starter abilities. Happy the Knicks got Quinten Grimes at 25

[Vampirate]

The Chip Engelland effect

Read on Twitter

If Giddey could get to the FT line much more, he'd be running away with this right now.



He's easily the most improved player from last year

[Dacost]

I know this way late but the hate Jaren Jackson Jr in this thread is bad.

Appartley being top a candidate for DPOY and scoring 16ppg a game is not good enough or to offensive to be compare to.

[wegotthabeet]

I'll take Franz, then Mobley

ok this is just getting ridiculous at this point.

[basketballRob]

I guess his best case scenario would be something like this version of 2023 Lauri

This is how I know you dont watch Franz play. He was our starting PG for almost the first 20 games of the season and offense was run thru him and Paolo. His ast did drop once Fultz came back.

Lauri is having a breakout season in his 6th year in the league and was NEVER efficient. Prior to this year his best shooting year was his 4th year in the league and still wasnt as efficient as Franz is this year.

Not sure how many 2nd year players have averaged 20ppg 4ast 4 rebs 49%FG 35%3pt in the past 5 years so I think he deserves a lot more credit than what you are giving him.

I def didn't watch him as much or as closely as Magic fans but i've watched enough Magic games to form an opinion
i've been following basketball for many decades
I like stats as much as the next guy but you know, when you follow a sport really closely for so many years - there's also other stuff that enable you to see the bigger picture, intuition, experience etc.

players are breaking "averages" and records left and right, who cares how many 2nd year players specifically posted some arbitrary benchmark

I already said that he's best case scenarion is current Lauri, which is great i'm sure the Magic will be thrilled with that
Lauri has shown some signs of significant improvement on the Cavs last season and in the Summer when he was "the man" on Finland team he has shown that he is much more confident and capable when actually given freedom to play and create and take upon himself than he was in a limited role standing in the corner, some players are like that (most aren't btw)

Ainge gambled on that and he gambled right, but Lauri has only done this for half a season
there is no guarantee that he will be able to consistently perform at that level, say over the duration of a 4-5 year max

when he'll be in a shooting slump - he doesn't have much else to offer and if his confidence will go down - so will his decsion making and effort level (just a hunch)

can Franz become something like this year's Lauri (or better)? sure, that's possible
but here's what i'm seeing from Franz:

yes, his 2p% is very encouraging
he's very smart, he cuts very well and moves well without the ball, I would even say that he impressed me more off the ball than on it. He can score (easily, because he's got a great jumpshot and a good touch)
with today's rules and no defense culture, a 6'10 guy who can get his shot off easily and is quick enough to take guys to the rim of the dribble is very valuable

but he will never be a good rebounder or an average defender
he won't be a legit #1 on the ball
and i doubt he can find many ways to make his teammates better

i'd be shocked if those things turned out to be untrue but again - he's 20, he can be the GoaT - literally everything is still on the table for him

realistically imo, with the limited time i've watched him my early take is that in order for Franz to be the best player in this draft - all the other candidates have to bust
i'm sure some of them will bust, but not likely that all of them will
and thus it's unlikely imo that Franz will be best player from this draft when it's all said and done

but he's a great player, Lauri has been the best player on a team that was over 0.500 not long ago
he did that by having a huge offensive impact, while being a below average defender

think Trae young but with less crappy defense

if Franz were to reach these levels, i'm sure it will be in that mold as well - elite offense with subpar defense

What are you talking about? Saying Franz isn't an average defender? That's not true. Franz will become a better rebounder and has rebounding well this season for a guard.

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[OrlMagic05]

I'll take Franz, then Mobley

ok this is just getting ridiculous at this point.

How so?

Watch on YouTube

[basketballRob]

Delete

[QingJames]

This is how I know you dont watch Franz play. He was our starting PG for almost the first 20 games of the season and offense was run thru him and Paolo. His ast did drop once Fultz came back.

Lauri is having a breakout season in his 6th year in the league and was NEVER efficient. Prior to this year his best shooting year was his 4th year in the league and still wasnt as efficient as Franz is this year.

Not sure how many 2nd year players have averaged 20ppg 4ast 4 rebs 49%FG 35%3pt in the past 5 years so I think he deserves a lot more credit than what you are giving him.

I def didn't watch him as much or as closely as Magic fans but i've watched enough Magic games to form an opinion
i've been following basketball for many decades
I like stats as much as the next guy but you know, when you follow a sport really closely for so many years - there's also other stuff that enable you to see the bigger picture, intuition, experience etc.

players are breaking "averages" and records left and right, who cares how many 2nd year players specifically posted some arbitrary benchmark

I already said that he's best case scenarion is current Lauri, which is great i'm sure the Magic will be thrilled with that
Lauri has shown some signs of significant improvement on the Cavs last season and in the Summer when he was "the man" on Finland team he has shown that he is much more confident and capable when actually given freedom to play and create and take upon himself than he was in a limited role standing in the corner, some players are like that (most aren't btw)

Ainge gambled on that and he gambled right, but Lauri has only done this for half a season
there is no guarantee that he will be able to consistently perform at that level, say over the duration of a 4-5 year max

when he'll be in a shooting slump - he doesn't have much else to offer and if his confidence will go down - so will his decsion making and effort level (just a hunch)

can Franz become something like this year's Lauri (or better)? sure, that's possible
but here's what i'm seeing from Franz:

yes, his 2p% is very encouraging
he's very smart, he cuts very well and moves well without the ball, I would even say that he impressed me more off the ball than on it. He can score (easily, because he's got a great jumpshot and a good touch)
with today's rules and no defense culture, a 6'10 guy who can get his shot off easily and is quick enough to take guys to the rim of the dribble is very valuable

but he will never be a good rebounder or an average defender
he won't be a legit #1 on the ball
and i doubt he can find many ways to make his teammates better

i'd be shocked if those things turned out to be untrue but again - he's 20, he can be the GoaT - literally everything is still on the table for him

realistically imo, with the limited time i've watched him my early take is that in order for Franz to be the best player in this draft - all the other candidates have to bust
i'm sure some of them will bust, but not likely that all of them will
and thus it's unlikely imo that Franz will be best player from this draft when it's all said and done

but he's a great player, Lauri has been the best player on a team that was over 0.500 not long ago
he did that by having a huge offensive impact, while being a below average defender

think Trae young but with less crappy defense

if Franz were to reach these levels, i'm sure it will be in that mold as well - elite offense with subpar defense

What are you talking about? Saying Franz isn't an average defender? That's not true. Franz will become a better rebounder and has rebounding well this season for a guard.

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Franz actually ranks among the absolute worst rebounders (rebound rate%) among SGs, and he’s much taller than just about all of them.

I have been vocal that I think Franz is clearly the best player in this draft so far and only those who haven’t watched him would say differently (although Mobley has an argument - but I think he is more flawed and has regressed in multiple ways this year).

But Franz is a terrible rebounder. He’s really bad at it. It’s not a matter of sharing the court with other big players, or because he’s playing at the 2 and on the perimeter; he’s terrible even among SGs who are typically 6’4, not 6’10. You don’t even need to confirm this with the stats if you have been watching him play. He’s very weak and passive on the boards.

[Vampirate]

I'll take Franz, then Mobley

ok this is just getting ridiculous at this point.

How so?

Watch on YouTube

I like Barnes, Cade's and Mobley's potential ceiling over Franz, though Franz has indeed taken the 2nd biggest leap in terms of scoring, i'd say Giddey has improved the most actually. Franz scoring is more impressive than Giddey's though.

Giddey also has a case in terms of ceiling over Franz too.

It just boils down to that.

Considering Green's potential is basically almost completely tied to his scoring ability, that'll be interesting to follow. Green could blow past Franz as a scorer, but not this season.

[AaronB]

I'll take Franz, then Mobley

ok this is just getting ridiculous at this point.

Here is a quote from John Hollinger in a recent Athletic Article:

"Franz Wagner, Magic: Will Wagner end up being the best rookie from this class? While I would still probably take Mobley, it no longer seems ridiculous to suggest it could be Wagner, who was picked eighth by Orlando."

So, apparently, it is not so ridiculous at this point, unless you think Hollinger is biased.

[Vampirate]

I'll take Franz, then Mobley

ok this is just getting ridiculous at this point.

Here is a quote from John Hollinger in a recent Athletic Article:

"Franz Wagner, Magic: Will Wagner end up being the best rookie from this class? While I would still probably take Mobley, it no longer seems ridiculous to suggest it could be Wagner, who was picked eighth by Orlando."

So, apparently, it is not so ridiculous at this point, unless you think Hollinger is biased.

I'll repeat this.

If Franz does end up being the best player from this draft class, then the draft while it may be deep is also weak. This of course not withstanding Franz turning himself into an All NBA player while possible, is probably the most unlikely. His best attribute is size and scoring but doesn't have a 2nd standout quality at this point. He needs to get to Dirk level to get to All NBA probably.

[AaronB]

One more thing, I would also take Wagner over Mobley.

Not because I think Wagner is clearly better, but I think that having a 2/3 who is basically unguardable at the rim and will probably end up at about a 40% (excellent form and tall) 3 pt shooter with great feet defensively is a more valuable position in today's NBA than an elite 4/5 defender and a good but not great shooter.

Reasonable people can disagree on the specifics, but Wagner's ceiling is as high as he wants it to be. He has a great BBIQ, excellent feet on both defense and offense, tall and can shoot around the rim with either hand. Almost unguardable.

[AaronB]

ok this is just getting ridiculous at this point.

Here is a quote from John Hollinger in a recent Athletic Article:

"Franz Wagner, Magic: Will Wagner end up being the best rookie from this class? While I would still probably take Mobley, it no longer seems ridiculous to suggest it could be Wagner, who was picked eighth by Orlando."

So, apparently, it is not so ridiculous at this point, unless you think Hollinger is biased.

I'll repeat this.

If Franz does end up being the best player from this draft class, then the draft while it may be deep is also weak. This of course not withstanding Franz turning himself into an All NBA player while possible, is probably the most unlikely. His best attribute is size and scoring but doesn't have a 2nd standout quality at this point. He needs to get to Dirk level to get to All NBA probably.

Repeating it does not make it true.

Wagner has unteachable footwork on both the offensive and defensive end of the court.

What he does not have yet is toughness and the probability of him getting tougher is extremely high because the NBA world is cruel to the weak and people just simply get tougher the older they get.

[OrlMagic05]

Watch on YouTube

Great review of Franz's rookie year.

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

I'll take Franz, then Mobley

I've never seen a team with the 5th worst record in the league so confident they got the best player in the draft two years in a row

The Magic have the #26 ranked offense and #25 defense

The Cavs had the #25 ranked defense the year before adding Mobley, with Allen playing most of the year

They had the #7 defense last year, #2 this year

I know offense is all the rage, but man, will defense ever get any credit, ever?

I think Mobley gets the credit he deserves, and most people are huge fans of his. He's one of those players that had a skill set that shines on solid teams, and because of that he's looked great playing for a Cavs team looking to make the jump.

I think the argument for Franz is that it's much more rare to find legit wings with size that can play like he does. 20-4-4 on 49/35/86 shooting on a 6'9 body at age 21 is legit. Watching Franz play and he's just as smooth on the offensive end as Evan is on the defensive end. He just makes things happen.

Mobley to be the best player he can be, needs a guy like Franz who can score and create offense. Franze to be the best player he can be needs a guy like Mobley to finish plays and hold down the defense.

It's really a matter of preference, but I think both teams and fanbases should be stoked they got the player they did.

Except Franz at 21 isn't anything special. Maybe he can become special, but right now he doesn't have any impact on his teams scoring efficiency, which is why they're near dead last.

Mobley however is already special. That why his teams have always had top defenses.

Using your phrasing, Franz needs a guy like Mobley now, and Mobley needs a guy like you hope Franz can turn into in the future for that team to be top 10 on offense and defense, because Mobley can anchor a top 10 defense, he already is, and Franz is hopeful he can develop into a guy that can anchor a top 10 offense, but definitely has yet to prove capable of doing that.

[Bergmaniac]

I guess his best case scenario would be something like this version of 2023 Lauri

This is how I know you dont watch Franz play. He was our starting PG for almost the first 20 games of the season and offense was run thru him and Paolo. His ast did drop once Fultz came back.

Lauri is having a breakout season in his 6th year in the league and was NEVER efficient. Prior to this year his best shooting year was his 4th year in the league and still wasnt as efficient as Franz is this year.

Not sure how many 2nd year players have averaged 20ppg 4ast 4 rebs 49%FG 35%3pt in the past 5 years so I think he deserves a lot more credit than what you are giving him.

I def didn't watch him as much or as closely as Magic fans but i've watched enough Magic games to form an opinion
i've been following basketball for many decades
I like stats as much as the next guy but you know, when you follow a sport really closely for so many years - there's also other stuff that enable you to see the bigger picture, intuition, experience etc.

players are breaking "averages" and records left and right, who cares how many 2nd year players specifically posted some arbitrary benchmark

I already said that he's best case scenarion is current Lauri, which is great i'm sure the Magic will be thrilled with that
Lauri has shown some signs of significant improvement on the Cavs last season and in the Summer when he was "the man" on Finland team he has shown that he is much more confident and capable when actually given freedom to play and create and take upon himself than he was in a limited role standing in the corner, some players are like that (most aren't btw)

Ainge gambled on that and he gambled right, but Lauri has only done this for half a season
there is no guarantee that he will be able to consistently perform at that level, say over the duration of a 4-5 year max

when he'll be in a shooting slump - he doesn't have much else to offer and if his confidence will go down - so will his decsion making and effort level (just a hunch)

Franz was in a shooting slump early in the year (21.4% from 3 in the first 10 games), but he was doing fine overall and was still our most impactful player with by far the highest on/off rating on the team (18.7).

[Vampirate]

Here is a quote from John Hollinger in a recent Athletic Article:

"Franz Wagner, Magic: Will Wagner end up being the best rookie from this class? While I would still probably take Mobley, it no longer seems ridiculous to suggest it could be Wagner, who was picked eighth by Orlando."

So, apparently, it is not so ridiculous at this point, unless you think Hollinger is biased.

I'll repeat this.

If Franz does end up being the best player from this draft class, then the draft while it may be deep is also weak. This of course not withstanding Franz turning himself into an All NBA player while possible, is probably the most unlikely. His best attribute is size and scoring but doesn't have a 2nd standout quality at this point. He needs to get to Dirk level to get to All NBA probably.

Repeating it does not make it true.

Wagner has unteachable footwork on both the offensive and defensive end of the court.

What he does not have yet is toughness and the probability of him getting tougher is extremely high because the NBA world is cruel to the weak and people just simply get tougher the older they get.

I mean, I can say that the first 4 picks in the draft have something unteachable that the others don't.

Barnes, Cade and Giddey have the capability of putting up Giannis like stats on any given night. Ie 25 points/ 10 rebounds/ 10 assists.

All 3 have something that restricts them atm, but if either of the 3 figure it out, then that player is basically a franchise changing talent.

Green has the capability to erupt for 40 points on any given night due to his combination of handles and athleticism.

Mobley has the potential to be a playoff shutdown defender, meaning Mobley can basically shut Franz down.

[OrlMagic05]

I've never seen a team with the 5th worst record in the league so confident they got the best player in the draft two years in a row

The Magic have the #26 ranked offense and #25 defense

The Cavs had the #25 ranked defense the year before adding Mobley, with Allen playing most of the year

They had the #7 defense last year, #2 this year

I know offense is all the rage, but man, will defense ever get any credit, ever?

I think Mobley gets the credit he deserves, and most people are huge fans of his. He's one of those players that had a skill set that shines on solid teams, and because of that he's looked great playing for a Cavs team looking to make the jump.

I think the argument for Franz is that it's much more rare to find legit wings with size that can play like he does. 20-4-4 on 49/35/86 shooting on a 6'9 body at age 21 is legit. Watching Franz play and he's just as smooth on the offensive end as Evan is on the defensive end. He just makes things happen.

Mobley to be the best player he can be, needs a guy like Franz who can score and create offense. Franze to be the best player he can be needs a guy like Mobley to finish plays and hold down the defense.

It's really a matter of preference, but I think both teams and fanbases should be stoked they got the player they did.

[b]Except Franz at 21 isn't anything special. Maybe he can become special, but right now he doesn't have any impact on his teams scoring efficiency, which is why they're near dead last.[/b]


Mobley however is already special. That why his teams have always had top defenses.

Using your phrasing, Franz needs a guy like Mobley now, and Mobley needs a guy like you hope Franz can turn into in the future for that team to be top 10 on offense and defense, because Mobley can anchor a top 10 defense, he already is, and Franz is hopeful he can develop into a guy that can anchor a top 10 offense, but definitely has yet to prove capable of doing that.

You lose credibility when you say things like this. The Magic are 26th in team scoring efficiency only 3 spots behind Bucks. So by your logic Giannis isnt anything special because "he doesnt have any impact on his teams scoring efficiency"

Mobley has a HUGE advantage over most as he plays with the best backcourt in the NBA, whereas Franz really only has Paolo.

[basketballRob]

I'll repeat this.

If Franz does end up being the best player from this draft class, then the draft while it may be deep is also weak. This of course not withstanding Franz turning himself into an All NBA player while possible, is probably the most unlikely. His best attribute is size and scoring but doesn't have a 2nd standout quality at this point. He needs to get to Dirk level to get to All NBA probably.

Repeating it does not make it true.

Wagner has unteachable footwork on both the offensive and defensive end of the court.

What he does not have yet is toughness and the probability of him getting tougher is extremely high because the NBA world is cruel to the weak and people just simply get tougher the older they get.

I mean, I can say that the first 4 picks in the draft have something unteachable that the others don't.

Barnes, Cade and Giddey have the capability of putting up Giannis like stats on any given night. Ie 25 points/ 10 rebounds/ 10 assists.

All 3 have something that restricts them atm, but if either of the 3 figure it out, then that player is basically a franchise changing talent.

Green has the capability to erupt for 40 points on any given night due to his combination of handles and athleticism.

Mobley has the potential to be a playoff shutdown defender, meaning Mobley can basically shut Franz down.

Franz is one of the best finishers at the rim in the NBA. None of the the other lottery picks can say that.

Franz has scored over 30 points in a game multiple times.


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