ScrantonBulls wrote:KayDee35 wrote:AlexanderRight wrote:Spoiler:
These are all great arguments for Russell and I honestly wouldn't dispute almost any of them if you're talking about him being the greatest of his era or even the 2nd best player ever.
When compared to Jordan though, I don't think it's fair that you're dismissing the fact that Russell played in an 8 team which makes it a statistical fact that he had a better chance at winning. And you're absolutely correct in pointing out that other players in the same era didn't have the same team success which is why I wouldn't argue anyone in that era against Russell. But not everyone in that era had similar supporting casts though. Russell played with 12 HOFs. Wilt played with 6. Oscar Robertson played with 4, Elgin Baylor played with 4, Paul Arizin played with 3. George Mikan played with 4. Not everyone in that era had an equal distribution of talent even though there were a lot less teams. Even when comparing number of All Star selections of teammates though all eras, MJ still outshines.
Russell's teamates made the All-Star game with him 27 times. Kareem 25 times. Magic 20 times. Larry 22 times. Wilt 27 times. Lebron 17 times. MJ only 6...
You said that "Russell's offense wasn't meant to be efficient" well it's a damn good thing that it didn't have to be. It's a luxury that Russell didn't have the pressure of performing high on that end. A career 44% shooter and 56% FT is an extremely underwhelming shooting output for a GOAT case. MJ being an elite player on both ends is a huge + for him. There's no question that Celtics team thrived on defense and Russell was the main component for that and he deserves all the credit in the world for what he did in that era.
But I really don't like arguing against Russell cause I honestly feel that he's underrated by today's fans. I honestly wouldn't argue against him being #2. I would actually agree that he's the greatest leader and greatest defensive player ever. And yeah, technically he is the greatest winner ever. But compared to MJ's team AND individual success, I find Jordan's GOAT case more compelling. He's the greatest offensive and defensive guard ever. It was his combination of elite individual statistical production WITH the legendary team success + the fact he had considerably less help than every other all time great that sets him apart.
I appreciate you saying that about Russell.
Russell's HOF teammates like Cousy, Sharman, Heinsohn, Hondo, and Sam Jones belong in the HOF.
Then you've got guys like:
- KC Jones with career averages of 7/4/3 (great defender though)
- Braun who played only 1 season with Boston and averaged 3.7 ppg
- Lovelett who played only his last 2 seasons with Boston averaging 6.6 pgg
- Philip who played only his last 2 seasons with Boston averaging about 4 pgg
- Ramsey who wasn't always a starter and never an all-star
- Bailey who was a good scoerer but had only 1 all-star season with Boston and played in just 3 playoff series for them
- Risen who played his last 3 season with Boston averaging 8 pgg or fewer
This latter group got in due to what they did on other teams, or in other roles (coach), or because they won rings with Bill. Who else is dragging 7 guys with these stats into the HOF, lol.
I have MJ as the greatest offensive guard of his era. I'm not sure he's #1 on my defensive guard list but he's very, very high. I'd have to give it further thought.I think Curry has a legitimate claim to greatest offensive guard ever. But that's another debate.
You are completely incorrect that Russell was not good on offense. He was very good:
- 4 seasons where he was top 5 in FG%
- Top 10 in PER for 8 seasons (Blocks and steals were not tracked at the time, so this based purely on offensive stats)
No other "defensive specialist" finds themselves in the top 10 in PER for a season, let alone multiple time. That's because Russell was not a defensive specialist but his defense was so otherwordly that people forgot he was a very good offensive player. Wilt and MJ were top 10 PER 11 times for their careers. Bill was top 10 8 times. LeBron finished top 10 PER 19 times and Kareem 17 times.
His shooting was effective for his role as a point center who often took tough shots when the offense stagnated.
Let's not pretend that MJ had terrible teammates. His #2 and #3 guys - Pip and Grant or Pip and Rodman - plus 6th man were way better than most teams of that time. Which teams of that eta would you swap those guys with? If you don't swap, you're admitting that MJ had the better help, which is fine but why downplay said help?
I think MJ deserves his due and I don't like to say negative things about him because too many of the arguments I see against MJ are spurious and in bad faith, often by people who never saw him play. But I just don't see how he comes close to Russell.
Since we're forced to compare across eras, let's look at where MJ ranks in offensive impact using best individual seasons of Offensive Win Shares. MJ has 0 seasons in the top 10. He has #11 and 12. He has 5 of the top 26 and 9 of the top 100. That is actually impressive! For one player to have 9 of the top 100 individual offensive seasons in terms of impact says that he is one of the best. Kareem has 2 of the top 5 seasons. Wilt has 2 of the top 10.
Now let's look at Defensive Win Shares for Russell. The top 6 seasons all belong to Russell. 10 of the top 20 belong to Russell. In a league with tons of talent over the decades, one guy still has half of the best individual impact defensive seasons ever? That is insane! His best DWS season is +5 over the next best season by any other player (Wilt)!!! That is not a gap, that is a chasm. No one else comes close to that level of defensive dominance. And when you look at Offensive Win Shares, no one else has this kind of separation from the pack.
As I said earlier, players don't get to pick their eras. If MJ played in an 8 team league, every night he'd be going up against a competent SG. Instead, SG was one of the weakest positions and in a league of 29 teams, only 25% of his opponents would be starting quality SGs, while the 75% would be bench players. I'm not going to count that against MJ but I will simply say that once you got outside the top 8-10 shooting guards of the 90s, the talent was poor. Wilt and Rusell faced another HOF center almost every night.
I don't see anybody else who is head and shoulders above other elite players in terms of impact. Some might say Wilt but I think his case relies more on stats. Wilt is the only player with multiple season (2 actually) in the top 10 in OWS and DWS. But time and again, the greatest talent the NBA has ever seen only wins 2 rings because of one Bill Russell. And that's just another reason to add to the pile for Bil''s GOAT case.
It's easy to see how great MJ's teammates were. Simply look at the 93-94 Bulls record without him. 55-27. And Kukoc wasn't even particularly good that year. His team was so stacked that it won 55 games without him. Does any other team from that era win 55 games if you remove their best player? No chance.
Yep it shows Michael Jordan was nothing more than a modern Kawhi, remove kawhi from teams and they still make deep playoff run without him, same situation with 90s Bulls with MJ.
