Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Darthlukey]

This is dumb and disingenuous.

Jordan, on the other hand, made what he had work, pretty much all with one team. No trade requests. No forcing his team to trade for better teammates.

Yea, because Jordan had a competent GM in Jerry Krause who got him Scottie, who didn't listen to him when he wanted to keep Oakley and got Cartwright instead, who drafted Kukoc, who traded for Rodman. If Jerrry Krause doesn't nail those moves, you think Michael Jordan would've continued to stay with the Bulls and lose in the first round repeatedly? He would've also demanded a trade.

LeBron's best teammates in the first five years of his career were Mo Williams and Big Z. The Cavs couldn't build a good enough team around him.

Sounds like its always someone elses fault but lebrons, which always seems to be the case

[Darthlukey]

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

It wasnt easy? How many 1sts had the cavs accrued in the 4 years he was gone? Did they trade one for a 25 and 10 guy in love? Were they younger and more talented than the miami team that had aged out? That cavs team was a dream compared to the heat he bailed on

Dude, they went through a 73-9 Warriors team. No it wasn't easy. It was one of the toughest championships. Love was a third option on a good team, which was the role he played. Other championship teams have first, second, and third options. Why is Lebron not allowed to have those?

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

[michaelm]

It's not any different if it was AD for his entire career but it wasn't. Imagine if Jordan instead of staying with Pippen to beat the pistons decided to team up with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston, then decided to team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp in Seattle. Decided to go to LA and made the Lakers trade for Shaq. When that wasn't enough make the Lakers trade Shaq for Kobe. Replace those names with whoever you want.

Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else. Lebron played with first Dwade & Bosh. Then Kyrie and Kevin Love. Then AD and now Luka. Literal top 3 in their position, HoF, ALL-NBA players in their actual primes. Not to mention the role players were elite around them.

Personally, I think Lebron's a phenomenal all-time player but his "decisions" have put a ceiling on where I would rank him All-time. I actually think these decisions made for a poorer outcome for him. He held himself back. He probably would still have 4 championships had he stayed in Cleveland rather than build teams everywhere else. The way he did it we'll never know.

Jordan stayed with Pippen because Pippen was the perfect 2nd option throughout the years for him and they were winning. Why would he leave? Lebron carried the Cavs for 7 years with no second option, so he left to search for one. If Lebron had Pippen and they were winning in Cleveland, he wouldn't have left for Miami. He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

BTW, Scottie Pippen averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals per game the year after Jordan retired and the Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was an MVP candidate and selected All-defensive first team. He was one hell of a second option.

Pippen didnt start as an all time talent or elite player, he was developed into that - Jordan didnt run to him after he was already great!

That is rather the point, of course Pippen’s innate talent and the effort he put in are the reasons he was such a great player eventulally, but if Jordan lets Jerry Krause pick him, waits long enough for him to develop, accepts a game plan which gives him the kind of role he deserves and can thrive in and he develops next to Jordan there is a stronger prospect of Jordan ending up with someone who is the perfect foil.

Imo LeBron’s choices in 2010 and going forward from then were dictated by his circumstances, reasonable in those circumstances and definitely were not reprehensible given all his moves were FA moves nor something which detracts from his achievements, but that doesn’t mean Jordan’s success and the success of his teams can be rationally attributed to sheer blind luck as someone has tried to do.

As someone has also said with which I agree LeGM was a fairly terrible GM but very likely better than the Cavs GM in his first stint, and even more so likely better than MJ would have been had he gone the LeGM path. He didn’t choose to do so despite the clout he undoubtedly had and his own massive ego, but rather chose to respect Jerry Klaus and allowed him to operate. A man has got to know his limitations.

[Sofia]

Why is this (Please Use More Appropriate Word) thread still going?

[The4thHorseman]

It wasnt easy? How many 1sts had the cavs accrued in the 4 years he was gone? Did they trade one for a 25 and 10 guy in love? Were they younger and more talented than the miami team that had aged out? That cavs team was a dream compared to the heat he bailed on

Dude, they went through a 73-9 Warriors team. No it wasn't easy. It was one of the toughest championships. Love was a third option on a good team, which was the role he played. Other championship teams have first, second, and third options. Why is Lebron not allowed to have those?

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

[michaelm]

Dude, they went through a 73-9 Warriors team. No it wasn't easy. It was one of the toughest championships. Love was a third option on a good team, which was the role he played. Other championship teams have first, second, and third options. Why is Lebron not allowed to have those?

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

He was also 35 years old with nothing left to prove.

[Ruma85]

Why is this (Please Use More Appropriate Word) thread still going?

I'm asking myself the same thing, we are 30 pages in.

[ball_takes23]

Easy not to bail when you’re working for an organization giving you the tools to succeed. Would you leave your job if they mandated use of a type writer instead of computer with internet?

Did lebron james go back to Cleveland? So he missed that type writer? Lol excuses my friend

Folks. It’s time to grow up! These aren’t super heroes. I get having admiration and wanting them to defeat villains on their way to championships as children but when we become adults we should let go of silly ideas.

Lebron left a type writer - a **** organization that lost Carlos Boozer, wouldn’t pull the trigger on an Amare trade because they over valued JJ Hickson and drafted Luke Jackson instead of Jr Smith, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson or trading up one spot to get Igoudola (imagine that, like the Bulls traded Polynice for Pippen).

Were all grown ups right? We all have jobs we go to and we perform as hard as we can to hopefully get our bonus and achieve the best possible rewards package.

In NBA terms that’s a max salary on a championship team. If you freaking over perform for seven years and your job keeps giving you a **** bonus - yet u know your are the, and every other company knows, you’re the best in the industry at what you do.

Your current company, that you’ve been with for seven years busting your hump, performing at the highest level, continues to demonstrate that they’ll always give you a **** bonus, a 401k with no match and have to go in office five times a day.

But you can go over here, to this other company - in MIA - get a 401k match, a hefty bonus, a flex schedule where you can work from home, and all the technological resources one could ask for. And you get two work with two of your best friends that you’ve developed relationships with from seeing eachother at various conferences.

What reason do you have to stay other than….again, vibes?

You go to that company have two of the greatest professional years of your life but are starting to see that your current company is forecasting financial troubles and won’t be able to compensate you as well. But where you developed your skills, that beautiful startup in your home state, they have some venture capital coming in and now - they can provide a package similar to what you got in MIA.

Same salary, maybe a hybrid schedule and you’ll have to play more of a mentorship role to younger staff. You also get an opportunity to invest in your community. Build a school for at risk youth, invest in local Boy & Girls clubs, launch community centers that offer job training and financial and support services for families in need in the city you grew up in. All of that and you have a young stud to supercharge your second stint at this business.

What do you do? More vibes?

Then, as a man, father, a husband (those things that a lot of yall are but a lot of yall forget he is too) you have an opportunity to segment your legacy even further (as men are prone and inclined to do) on and off the court. Meanwhile you see your company developing old habits. They let go of their young stud employee and replace him with a lady who goes on maternity leave weeks into her tenure.

You start flirting with the idea of joining THE greatest and most historic company in your industry, in one of the greatest cities in the world (You’ve earned this). They promise you the same Bennie’s as you were promised in MIA and Cleveland. And this team has even more in assets to help supercharge their business annd off the court opportunities. Even promise that your son, who’s currently enrolled in USC, a job…even if he doesn’t quite deserve.

wtf do you?!

Stay in Cleveland

Because of vibes?

Because…adversity?

Didn’t he go to the finals literally every year from his time on the Heat to his last game in Cleveland? Than choose to compete in a stronger conference? But we forget that part right?

I really hope you got paid to write this ball-gargling nonsense.

[Rust_Cohle]

Dude, they went through a 73-9 Warriors team. No it wasn't easy. It was one of the toughest championships. Love was a third option on a good team, which was the role he played. Other championship teams have first, second, and third options. Why is Lebron not allowed to have those?

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

And yet he returned to play for the…wizards

[DimesandKnicks]

Did lebron james go back to Cleveland? So he missed that type writer? Lol excuses my friend

Folks. It’s time to grow up! These aren’t super heroes. I get having admiration and wanting them to defeat villains on their way to championships as children but when we become adults we should let go of silly ideas.

Lebron left a type writer - a **** organization that lost Carlos Boozer, wouldn’t pull the trigger on an Amare trade because they over valued JJ Hickson and drafted Luke Jackson instead of Jr Smith, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson or trading up one spot to get Igoudola (imagine that, like the Bulls traded Polynice for Pippen).

Were all grown ups right? We all have jobs we go to and we perform as hard as we can to hopefully get our bonus and achieve the best possible rewards package.

In NBA terms that’s a max salary on a championship team. If you freaking over perform for seven years and your job keeps giving you a **** bonus - yet u know your are the, and every other company knows, you’re the best in the industry at what you do.

Your current company, that you’ve been with for seven years busting your hump, performing at the highest level, continues to demonstrate that they’ll always give you a **** bonus, a 401k with no match and have to go in office five times a day.

But you can go over here, to this other company - in MIA - get a 401k match, a hefty bonus, a flex schedule where you can work from home, and all the technological resources one could ask for. And you get two work with two of your best friends that you’ve developed relationships with from seeing eachother at various conferences.

What reason do you have to stay other than….again, vibes?

You go to that company have two of the greatest professional years of your life but are starting to see that your current company is forecasting financial troubles and won’t be able to compensate you as well. But where you developed your skills, that beautiful startup in your home state, they have some venture capital coming in and now - they can provide a package similar to what you got in MIA.

Same salary, maybe a hybrid schedule and you’ll have to play more of a mentorship role to younger staff. You also get an opportunity to invest in your community. Build a school for at risk youth, invest in local Boy & Girls clubs, launch community centers that offer job training and financial and support services for families in need in the city you grew up in. All of that and you have a young stud to supercharge your second stint at this business.

What do you do? More vibes?

Then, as a man, father, a husband (those things that a lot of yall are but a lot of yall forget he is too) you have an opportunity to segment your legacy even further (as men are prone and inclined to do) on and off the court. Meanwhile you see your company developing old habits. They let go of their young stud employee and replace him with a lady who goes on maternity leave weeks into her tenure.

You start flirting with the idea of joining THE greatest and most historic company in your industry, in one of the greatest cities in the world (You’ve earned this). They promise you the same Bennie’s as you were promised in MIA and Cleveland. And this team has even more in assets to help supercharge their business annd off the court opportunities. Even promise that your son, who’s currently enrolled in USC, a job…even if he doesn’t quite deserve.

wtf do you?!

Stay in Cleveland

Because of vibes?

Because…adversity?

Didn’t he go to the finals literally every year from his time on the Heat to his last game in Cleveland? Than choose to compete in a stronger conference? But we forget that part right?

I really hope you got paid to write this ball-gargling nonsense.

THis took all of five minutes. Sorry if this would be a heavy lift for you

[DimesandKnicks]

Selectively pinpointing ALL NBA is not facts. Facts are not looking at 16 years of LeBron's career to prove a point and then using the extra season's stats as a determining factor in any debate. If you were to include 4 of ADs ALL NBA seasons that makes 8 to 2 All NBA teammates.

Popularity contest or not, the popular opinion is Lebron has had better players than Jordan. To dismiss All Star selections as a comparative of talent is absurd.

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but Dwyane Wade ,Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis and Luka Doncic are All NBA talents and were while playing with Lebron. Since you're pointing out players 3-15 why don't you back your statement up with stats and reasoning on how Lebron's teammates from 3-15 were worse than Jordans. Same with Steph and Kobe.

I don't think my point is really debatable and it seems to be the point you're avoiding to argue. Lebron has hand selected better teammates than Jordan, Steph and/or Kobe.

I say this all with always adding to my point that I think Lebron was a GOAT level talent. His "decisions" have diminished the perception of his championships as John Stockton had mentioned.

LeBron had 1 prime healthy year with healthy AD.

I have looked into whole team analysis before and Lebron did have worse teams
Here is one I did with some awkward calculations (but correct) using the old BPM:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=52420156#p52420156
Showing that there is generally almost no correlation between superstar performance and titles and almost perfect correlation between opposition vs supporting cast gap (provided you have a prime superstar)
With new BPM the gap is less (BPM was pretty obviously changed to make LBJ look worse and MJ better IMO) but still MJs rings were clearly easier even with the new BPM/VORP (no post on that)

Of course Lebron picked better team mates, while for other stars their management picked better team mates - since Lebron sucks at GMing (but less than Cavs managment) and does not have the ability/time to put together a whole well-synergizing team this is overall a disadvantage for him
How is getting handed stuff better than getting out of a crap situation on your own initiative? It's like Donald Trump saying, I got Billions of $ without having to quit on my home country like that despicable Elon Musk.

What would his perception have been had he never won (like Jordan without Pippen) in his entire career?

But the path Jordan chose which was the main path in his day which was pre- the recent player empowerment era included allowing someone competent to build the Bulls roster, sticking with a coach and allowing that coach to coach him and the team in general, and in particular acceding to a game plan which took the ball out of his hands to an extent which allowed his teammates to thrive was what resulted in the Jordan Bulls teams. I don’t consider it likely two Bulls threepeats etc would have happened with the aforementioned Stockton or even Malone as the cornerstone. The path LeBron chose post 2010 was quite simply unlikely to result in a Pippen arising next to him. And if he and his cohort pushed early on for the Cavs to be win now the first time around as some are saying that has an effect as well, not that I am claiming this myself, looks to me like the Cavs organisation was terrible and LeBron was too good too soon for them to get early first round draft picks.

You pay your money and you take your choice. IMO neither camp should complain about the choices made by the other player.

It sounds like your giving credit to the organization for making the right moves without realizing it.

Michael Jordan signed a 7-year rookie contract. He didn't have a choice. And even if he did, his team showed promise as a contender by his fourth year in the league. Why would he leave?

Some of you all act like the Stockton's and Jordan's of the world played in pre 1999 lockout CBA. IIRC, free agents were essentially all restrictive free agents when they're contracts retired. You can't conspire with other players from other teams when you know your team can just match any contract and retain your rights.

[DimesandKnicks]

It's not any different if it was AD for his entire career but it wasn't. Imagine if Jordan instead of staying with Pippen to beat the pistons decided to team up with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston, then decided to team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp in Seattle. Decided to go to LA and made the Lakers trade for Shaq. When that wasn't enough make the Lakers trade Shaq for Kobe. Replace those names with whoever you want.

Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else. Lebron played with first Dwade & Bosh. Then Kyrie and Kevin Love. Then AD and now Luka. Literal top 3 in their position, HoF, ALL-NBA players in their actual primes. Not to mention the role players were elite around them.

Personally, I think Lebron's a phenomenal all-time player but his "decisions" have put a ceiling on where I would rank him All-time. I actually think these decisions made for a poorer outcome for him. He held himself back. He probably would still have 4 championships had he stayed in Cleveland rather than build teams everywhere else. The way he did it we'll never know.

Jordan stayed with Pippen because Pippen was the perfect 2nd option throughout the years for him and they were winning. Why would he leave? Lebron carried the Cavs for 7 years with no second option, so he left to search for one. If Lebron had Pippen and they were winning in Cleveland, he wouldn't have left for Miami. He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

BTW, Scottie Pippen averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals per game the year after Jordan retired and the Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was an MVP candidate and selected All-defensive first team. He was one hell of a second option.

Pippen didnt start as an all time talent or elite player, he was developed into that - Jordan didnt run to him after he was already great!

He was an all-star by year three, all nba defense and DPOY candidate by year four and got MVP votes by year five. And MJ didn't sniff a title until Scottie did develop into an all-time great talent.

[DimesandKnicks]

It wasnt easy? How many 1sts had the cavs accrued in the 4 years he was gone? Did they trade one for a 25 and 10 guy in love? Were they younger and more talented than the miami team that had aged out? That cavs team was a dream compared to the heat he bailed on

Dude, they went through a 73-9 Warriors team. No it wasn't easy. It was one of the toughest championships. Love was a third option on a good team, which was the role he played. Other championship teams have first, second, and third options. Why is Lebron not allowed to have those?

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

Seven years playing with Cleveland, and opting to go play in a more competitive Western conference? I really am curious as to what it looks like to...what - "embrace" adversitiy. Truly. Is your ilk of the notion that he should just play 82 plus games for teams that don't have the assets to compete for champioships. Why?

[DimesandKnicks]

Dude, they went through a 73-9 Warriors team. No it wasn't easy. It was one of the toughest championships. Love was a third option on a good team, which was the role he played. Other championship teams have first, second, and third options. Why is Lebron not allowed to have those?

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

Was Kobe a Coward for demanding a trade and/or threatening to sign with the Clippers if the Lakers didn't give him more talent after he demanded they jetison an ATG big because he couldn't compete for championships for two years...after the org demonstrated their capacity to build a dynasty?

[xinxin]

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

Sorry to nitpick but Lamar Odom was never an all star.

Meta ‘s only all star appearance was with the pacers and never for the lakers

As for Pau, his 3 all star selections out of 6 overall were with Memphis and the Bulls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[axeman23]

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose strong asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

So maybe its not the orgs fault but bron just not wanting to give the team a chance to retool. Which, it is his right, but lets call a spade a spade. You act like bron was on the heat and never had any help.

I'm not sure what difference it makes or should make in any of this. I just don't understand. How many players in nba history can basically come to a franchise and say 'trade a & b for x & y(if we go along with him being the real gm of the teams he joined after the Cavs)' then take them to 4 straight finals and win 1 or 2 of them? How many franchises in nba history would turn that offer down? Not too many. The Heat were going nowhere in 2011. Wade was starting to wear down and couldn't carry them any further. Once a guy joins your team as a fa you can't expect some big degree of loyalty like if you'd drafted them and they'd been there for 10-12 years. Duncan very nearly left the Spurs after winning a ring with them. Kobe very nearly left LA after winning 3 there. It's a business. Owners literally move teams out of cities when they feel like its a good enough move financially to do so. Yet LeBron is a bad guy for playing out 4 year contracts and going somewhere else?

It's funny, Riley gets all his flowers for LA's success, but for Miami? Apparently he was a lame duck figurehead, it was "ALL LeBron!!!"

[Iwasawitness]

This is dumb and disingenuous.

Jordan, on the other hand, made what he had work, pretty much all with one team. No trade requests. No forcing his team to trade for better teammates.

Yea, because Jordan had a competent GM in Jerry Krause who got him Scottie, who didn't listen to him when he wanted to keep Oakley and got Cartwright instead, who drafted Kukoc, who traded for Rodman. If Jerrry Krause doesn't nail those moves, you think Michael Jordan would've continued to stay with the Bulls and lose in the first round repeatedly? He would've also demanded a trade.

LeBron's best teammates in the first five years of his career were Mo Williams and Big Z. The Cavs couldn't build a good enough team around him.

Sounds like its always someone elses fault but lebrons, which always seems to be the case

So it's LeBron's fault the Cavs didn't know what they were doing his first seven years of his career?

[Iwasawitness]

It's not any different if it was AD for his entire career but it wasn't. Imagine if Jordan instead of staying with Pippen to beat the pistons decided to team up with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston, then decided to team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp in Seattle. Decided to go to LA and made the Lakers trade for Shaq. When that wasn't enough make the Lakers trade Shaq for Kobe. Replace those names with whoever you want.

Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else. Lebron played with first Dwade & Bosh. Then Kyrie and Kevin Love. Then AD and now Luka. Literal top 3 in their position, HoF, ALL-NBA players in their actual primes. Not to mention the role players were elite around them.

Personally, I think Lebron's a phenomenal all-time player but his "decisions" have put a ceiling on where I would rank him All-time. I actually think these decisions made for a poorer outcome for him. He held himself back. He probably would still have 4 championships had he stayed in Cleveland rather than build teams everywhere else. The way he did it we'll never know.

Jordan stayed with Pippen because Pippen was the perfect 2nd option throughout the years for him and they were winning. Why would he leave? Lebron carried the Cavs for 7 years with no second option, so he left to search for one. If Lebron had Pippen and they were winning in Cleveland, he wouldn't have left for Miami. He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

BTW, Scottie Pippen averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals per game the year after Jordan retired and the Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was an MVP candidate and selected All-defensive first team. He was one hell of a second option.

Pippen didnt start as an all time talent or elite player, he was developed into that - Jordan didnt run to him after he was already great!

Why do we continue to act like Pippen wasn't a sought after talent that the Bulls purposely traded up for just so they knew they would get him?

[Yank3525]

He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

[DimesandKnicks]

He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

He gets a pass for going back home and winning his first title against a team with the greatest record of all time.

But you’d prefer him to stay in Miami, why? Can yall even communicate why it’s so important that he stays with teams he signed with after becoming a free agent?