MVP Rankings 1.0

[JimMurray]

You must live in a different planet then. Lol I go to college and most of my basketball friends think Lebron is better. And of my close friends ALL think Lebron is the best player in the league, even one of my friends who is a Laker fan.

Do you live in Ohio? Do you really think those opinions are representative of objective NBA fans?

[poopdamoop]

[JimMurray]

how? by nearly all objective measurements, the gap is sizable. It's only by subjective opinions that things are thought to be close. Is it really hard to believe that some people disagree with those subjective opinions when the objective measurements are so overwhelmingly one sided?

If you want the MVP to be a stats race...which everyone agrees it isn't, than you give it to Lebron. If you go by all the criteria, than you give it to Kobe. I understand because of your bias that you want to say Lebron has a sizable lead...but through any objective measure, most people have Kobe ahead of Lebron...by a fairly sizable margin.

[Dat Pass]

how? by nearly all objective measurements, the gap is sizable. It's only by subjective opinions that things are thought to be close. Is it really hard to believe that some people disagree with those subjective opinions when the objective measurements are so overwhelmingly one sided?

Are you serious? How in the world did you become a Forum Mod with such limited knowledge?

[poopdamoop]

how? by nearly all objective measurements, the gap is sizable. It's only by subjective opinions that things are thought to be close. Is it really hard to believe that some people disagree with those subjective opinions when the objective measurements are so overwhelmingly one sided?

If you want the MVP to be a stats race...which everyone agrees it isn't, than you give it to Lebron. If you go by all the criteria, than you give it to Kobe. I understand because of your bias that you want to say Lebron has a sizable lead...but through any objective measure, most people have Kobe ahead of Lebron...by a fairly sizable margin.

Please explain how Kobe being on a slightly better team with worse individual performance gives him a sizeable lead. Both you and LJ are making some pretty stupid points.

[INKtastic]

how? by nearly all objective measurements, the gap is sizable. It's only by subjective opinions that things are thought to be close. Is it really hard to believe that some people disagree with those subjective opinions when the objective measurements are so overwhelmingly one sided?

If you want the MVP to be a stats race...which everyone agrees it isn't, than you give it to Lebron. If you go by all the criteria, than you give it to Kobe. I understand because of your bias that you want to say Lebron has a sizable lead...but through any objective measure, most people have Kobe ahead of Lebron...by a fairly sizable margin.

I didn't say the lead was sizable myself, I simply pointed to reasons it's possible for people to say LeBron has a sizable lead without them "hating" on Kobe.

As for the rest of your statement, it's really not possible to have kobe ahead by a sizable margin using objective measure as your basis.

[CharlieMurphy]

Yeah, if you wanna talk about objective measures let's think about the objective measures used to select the MVP for, I don't know, almost everyone of the past 20 some odd years. These measure include Wins and Stats. So Kobe's clearly got Lebron in the wins department. Lebron has a slight edge on Kobe statistically this year. Anyone saying that Lebron's stats blow kobe out of the water is foolish or puts too much emphasis on assists (which I feel should be more of a team stat than an individual one). So what do we have here? A damn close race to the MVP. No one has a sizeable advantage. So yeah I do find it hard to believe that people supposedly using objective measurements conclude that Lebron has a sizeable advantage over Kobe for MVP.

[Sedale Threatt]

What imma do about my leeeeeegs, chalie murphy?!?!?!?!

[Sedale Threatt]

Have you ever considered the fact that teams have learned that making Lebron a one on five player increases their chances of winning exponentially? Lebron hasn't figured this out yet, hence, his monstrous numbers in losses. Nobody is impressed by them. It means so much more to get those numbers in victories. Who cares if you score 40+ when you lose the game?

I know I am, and I'm sure there are many, many more.

I agree with both answers here. I dont think its fair to say that his numbers arent impressive, even if the result is a loss. However, JimMurray is completely correct in saying that teams are making LeBron go one on five, so it does minimize the value of his stats to a certain extent if his team losses. Teams could care less if LeBron drops 37-7-7 on them if they still win.

Eh, I drank the Kool-aid last year, but not this year. The Cavs are a pretty damn average basketball team beyond LeBron, and anything he does to help them win is almost always both impressive and necessary.

I've reached the same opinion about him that I did Jordan and Shaq. If he gets the necessary help, it won't be a matter of if but how many championships he'll win. He's that good, in my opinion. He just doesn't have that right now.

And I'm not going to crap on him for that. People did the same thing with Jordan and Kobe. It was stupid in their cases, and it's stupid in LeBron's, too.

[Benedict_Boozer]

The debate is close, but for now I'll defer to Maurice Brooks and ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/nba/notebook/_/page/ ... ards-watch

The crazy thing about that ESPN list is that Pau Gasol, a teammate of the #1 guy Kobe is actually in his top 10.

I'm not sure what to think about that. Has there ever been an MVP list with two guys from 1 team in the top 10 candidates before?

Ironically maybe the Shaq/Kobe teams. He has been blessed with some great teammates!

[Bgil]

Even if the Cavs do win as many or more games than the Lakers Kobe could still win.
A lot of people don't like giving the MVP award to what they see as a "pretender". Last years performance against the Magic is probably on the mind of everyone thinking about voting for Lebron this year.

I don't think the media would like the credibility hit that comes with voting for a guy that gets creamed in the ECF again.
Then again after Dirk and Nash (twice) they're probably used to it.

[Chris Hansen]

what people dont understand is LeBron needs those stats for the cavs to have a chance to win.

[JimMurray]

Please explain how Kobe being on a slightly better team with worse individual performance gives him a sizeable lead. Both you and LJ are making some pretty stupid points.

When you attempt to compare statistics for purposes of determining the MVP, what you have is a tangible element that looks appealing on the surface, but at the end of the day favors players on worse teams. Steve Nash will never put up Lebron number, neither will Kobe. Lebron is forced to produce what he does in order to keep his team in the hunt, this means his numbers will be inflated, and it does not preclude the demonstrated fact that Kobe and Wade can put up similar numbers. When Gasol was out, and they were playing out of sync still trying to acclimate to the addition of Ron Artest, Kobe was averaging 35 ppg and winning games by himself the same way Lebron is now. I don't think he should be penalized because his PER isn't above 30.0, since the system in which he plays does not allow it. Furthermore, his team does not require it, and him playing for that is counter productive to the ultimate team goal of winning a championship.

Everyone knows that "Lebron stats are inflated because of how much he dominates the ball" arguments, and I'm not going to repeat them here other than to say they are correct. The fact of the matter is that if Kobe wanted to play for stats, his numbers would be just as impressive as Lebrons with two exceptions, assists, and rebounds. It's impossible to be an assist hog in the triangle offense (I'm sure you've heard that before), and he's on the court with two 7 footers at all times; it's not realistic to project Kobe to average any more rebounds than he already is (not to mention he's a guard). I know that's not what Lebron fan boys want to hear, but it's truth.

Statistics are slave to the systems they evaluate. If player A plays in a superior offensive system that demands a strict set of attributes, player A's statistical output will be limited by what the system allows. If you give player B the ball and tell everyone else to get out of his way, there are no limits other than time constraints. Everyone knows Mike Brown is an idiot, I don't need to explain that one to you.

[JimMurray]

As for the rest of your statement, it's really not possible to have kobe ahead by a sizable margin using objective measure as your basis.

Sure it is...wins and losses while playing in a much tougher conference. If Steve Nash played a lick of defense I'd have him above Kobe and Lebron, and his numbers are nowhere close to either of the two. It's pretty obvious why he's an MVP candidate, and he doesn't need eye popping numbers to do it.

[JimMurray]

Even if the Cavs do win as many or more games than the Lakers Kobe could still win.
A lot of people don't like giving the MVP award to what they see as a "pretender". Last years performance against the Magic is probably on the mind of everyone thinking about voting for Lebron this year.

This is basically the point I've been making from the beginning. People are less curious about Lebron James and he has drawn a label from last years post season failure. Add to that the fact that the Cavs are performing worse than last year after making their team much better on paper and those labels solidify themselves. It's not about Lebron putting up numbers this year.

[JimMurray]

what people dont understand is LeBron needs those stats for the cavs to have a chance to win.

I disagree...the Cavs play better when Lebron does less. Kobe learned this around 05-06, Jordan had to learn it, now it's Lebron's turn. More importantly he has to find that steady balance between knowing when to take over, and knowing how to best make his teammates successful.

[Benedict_Boozer]

^The only qualm I have with what you posted JimMurray is that

#1 - you assume Lebron produces big numbers because of Mike Brown's (Please Use More Appropriate Word) offense. But actually I think he produces in spite of the system for the most part. For example alot of times you and everyone else sees Lebron go 1 on 5 from the top of the key and still score over and over again. Against ORL in 1 game we basically just gave him the ball at the FT line and he had to score or create every single play the entire quarter against a set defense. Lebron gets VERY FEW easy baskets and yet his efficiency is still among the best in the NBA.

I actually think operating in a system like the Triangle in a Scottie Pippen role, or a system where he shared the load with another great player like Gasol, Lebron would probably be MORE efficient and that's saying something considering he is already shooting 52% going 1 on 5 all game.

#2 You assume Kobe could replicate Lebron's numbers in a similar system but I'm not so sure. Certainly I don't think he could replicate his efficiency. Kobe was in a similar "Lebron ball" system under Rudy T I believe where he dominated the ball and his turnover rate skyrocketed. Lebron I think is just flat out a better passer, just like Kobe is a flat out better shooter, it is what it is. I think in any system his assists woudl be higher due to this. I think Lebron is also a better rebounder no matter who he plays with because of his size/athleticism. CLE historically has always been near the top in terms of rebounding in prior years yet Lebron has always been around 7+ rebs. That is a physical attribute, simple as that.

[HouMac]

Even if the Cavs do win as many or more games than the Lakers Kobe could still win.

@ anyone who believes this. If the records are similar, everybody eyes will jump towards statistics and the help around 'em...and those are 2 areas where Kobe will always lose to LeBron.

A lot of people don't like giving the MVP award to what they see as a "pretender".

Who sees LeBron as a "pretender"? He is widely considered the game's best player(especially in the media), and his image as far as value to his team is concerned is much better than Kobe's.

Last years performance against the Magic is probably on the mind of everyone thinking about voting for Lebron this year.

That series being on everyone's mind should help LeBron, if anything, considering he averaged 38/8/8/49%. The talk all ECF and even when the series ended was how little help LeBron had.

[Dat Pass]

For those supporting LeBron right now.. You guys do realize that the Cavs are on pace for a 59-23 record right? Likely a 3rd seed in the East (Maybe even 4th)? And the Cavs schedule only gets harder. If the Cavs dont start playing better, I can promise you LeBron will not win MVP if the Cavs lose 6-7 more games than last season. Whether you think its fair or not, he wouldnt win it in that scenario.

Thats why I thought it would be so tough for him to win it this season. They overahcieved big time last year, and they added some solid depth while not giving anything up. They have to come at least within 2-3 games of that 66-16 mark in order for LeBron to win it.

[Dat Pass]

Who sees LeBron as a "pretender"? He is widely considered the game's best player(especially in the media)

Where do you people come up with this?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=t ... &type=lgns

Out of 107 Hall of Famers, major award winners, executives, current players, coaches and other basketball experts, Kobe won the voting 62-34. It wasnt even close.

I would love to know where you got your information..