Wade Finals PER = 40.25, rest of team = 44.74

[ERRDAY3]

Mavs are not a good defensive team. Kobe in the finals went against Goat defenses.
Wade gets to play against the MAVS twice! Prime Kobe scored 62 points in three quarters against them. Prime kobe averaged 40 pts against them in the reg season!

Look what happened when Wade faced a defensive power house Kobe is use to facing in the finals.
He averages 18 pts on 40% shooting plus 5tovs!

Actually both Mav teams were good on defense. The notion that they aren't is largely just based on the idea that a team with only Dirk as star must be terrible on defense, but it's simply untrue.

Now, you can argue that Wade has faced weaker Finals defenses than Kobe, but if you adjust for that quantitatively it's pretty hard to imagine it would even come close to removing Wade's edge.

Re: How Kobe did against Dallas in '06.

Kobe destroyed teams by making shots. Shots that he could hit against anybody, but the vast majority of the time, he didn't, and he didn't become any more likely to do in the playoffs. It's not at all the same as Wade's approach.

so in 06 couldnt make those shot majority of the time but somehow averaged 35.4ppg with scrubs on his team and single handily embarrassed the entire league and the same maverick team.

wade in the Chicago series wasn't anything special. ronnie brewer locked him down. when wade faced a top 5 team he was killed. don't tell me he was tired the guy played 10 games before that. the phily series was a joke and the Celtics series both lebron and wade played their best.

Wade was tired you could see it he was winded by the first quarter was missing open dunks, lay ups, and shots his shoulder was hurting and he never plays good in Chicago anyways. I also heard he was sick and throwing up before the series started.

[Bladers]

Wade was tired you could see it he was winded by the first quarter was missing open dunks, lay ups, and shots his shoulder was hurting and he never plays good in Chicago anyways. I also heard he was sick and throwing up before the series started.

No he wasn't tired. That's an excuse and no he wasn't throwing up.

He had almost a week break from the boston series before they played chicago.
He was locked down simple. You just don't understand basketball to get it.
Wade only scores through pick and roll and drives. He has no jump shot.
So he depends on teams that play bad pick and roll with no or soft bigs.

He sucked against the sixers and was shut down against chicago because they knew how to play the pick and roll.

Whenever he drove he met, Asik, Noah, and Gibson.
When Wade drives in the Mavs series through the pick and roll, Chandler rolls out way OUT there.
So all Wade has to do is drive pass him and lay it up. Because dirk is soft and never comes over.

All wade is doing to the mavs is a layup drill but not in the clutch.
The reason Wade hasn't been clutch is because at the end of the 4th. Mavs go into a zone.
Clogging the paint, therefore wade can't drive and therefore is USELESS!

That's why he can dominate till the last 5 mins of the game!
The zone takes away his drive and he's completely USELESS!

[dn0774]

When it comes to legacies, Kobe's never had a special Finals series or even a truly great Finals game that I can recall. Duncan and Shaq were beasts back in the day and put up monster numbers and Duncan a near quadruple double. Wade's performances easily outclass Kobe here and imo Wade's the closest player to MJ we've seen in the Finals from a guard. Wade's determination and relentless attack on both ends of the court is the kind of winning drive that MJ was made out of.

Truly special stuff by Wade and there's also no question that he's the Finals MVP. Shame it'll all go to waste if they lose. However if Wade gets another Finals MVP and keeps winning rings then he'll close in on Kobe's rankings in the all time stuff.

And if Kobe fans start picking on the fact that its the Mavs that Wade's beasting on...well this is the Mavs team that embarrassed the Lakers and Kobe couldn't score a layup until 2.5 games into that series against them. And the Magic team the Lakers faced in the Finals had to be one of the worst Finals team ever and Kobe should have had a field day against their perimeter defenders imo.

Kobe was incredible vs. the Magic in '09. LeBron blew him out of the water statistically that season, but his skill level and fundamentals had people rightfully saying he was still the best in the world.

If you go by raw numbers Wade obviously has the advantage, albeit in a much smaller sample size, but I don't think he'll ever be able to show that level of skill and composure Kobe had in '09. He averaged 30/5.3/5.5/1.7 throughout the entire playoffs and dominated some good perimeter defenders in the Finals (Pietrus, Barnes, Lee).

Wade definitely has some great individual numbers though, and has proven himself as an all time great finals performer. If LeBron was even a third of the player he was in the conference finals the series would be over.

This is how it always seems to be with Kobe though, his stats, while impressive, consistently pale in comparison to his peers. This leaves his defenders to abandon all factual arguments (stats) and take up arms in the realm of subjective opinion ("he's more clutch/skilled/composed/better work ethic/focused/intense"), and frankly it has become so played out at this point. Even his "superior" defense (in his prime years) is still propped up by opinion more than anything as measuring defensive ability/value purely through stats (even advanced stats) is impossible.

At some point people need to admit that perhaps the reason Kobe consistently lags behind his most oft compared to rivals (MJ/Lebron and even Wade of late) in terms of actual in-game production is due to being an ever so slightly inferior basketball talent.

This is just something thats been bugging me since 2008 when Chris Paul clearly had a better individual season than Kobe yet lost out on MVP to him. Seeing his defenders coming out of the woodwork claiming Kobe deserved MVP over CP3 due to *insert immeasurable intangible here* was sickening. That just seems to be a recurring theme in every Kobe-related thread on this site...

[An Unbiased Fan]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Dallas was 11th in Drtg and 7th in points allowed.

Of course Wade didn't face top 5 defensive teams in the finals, because he faced them in his path to the finals.Either way you look at it, Wade plays better against better defensive teams and has proven to all out in the finals.

This is thread is about NBA FINALS performances, so why bring up earlier rounds. I could point out that Kobe had to face the best defensive team of the 00's in his own conference(Spurs), and perfomed great against them, but that wouldn't be relevent to this discussion.You seem to be cherry pick certain series of Wade while ignoring others(like the last series against Chicago).

The fact is that Wade has not had to face a tough defensive team in the Finals, and that Kobe has had to face the toughest defense in the FInals of any superstar outside of maybe Wilt against the 60's Celtics. Wade deserves credit for taking advantage of his opponents, but it's ridiculous to act like the two have had an equal playing field.

[ERRDAY3]

Wade was tired you could see it he was winded by the first quarter was missing open dunks, lay ups, and shots his shoulder was hurting and he never plays good in Chicago anyways. I also heard he was sick and throwing up before the series started.

No he wasn't tired. That's an excuse and no he wasn't throwing up.

He had almost a week break from the boston series before they played chicago.
He was locked down simple. You just don't understand basketball to get it.
Wade only scores through pick and roll and drives. He has no jump shot.
So he depends on teams that play bad pick and roll with no or soft bigs.

He sucked against the sixers and was shut down against chicago because they knew how to play the pick and roll.

Whenever he drove he met, Asik, Noah, and Gibson.
When Wade drives in the Mavs series through the pick and roll, Chandler rolls out way OUT there.
So all Wade has to do is drive pass him and lay it up. Because dirk is soft and never comes over.

All wade is doing to the mavs is a layup drill but not in the clutch.
The reason Wade hasn't been clutch is because at the end of the 4th. Mavs go into a zone.
Clogging the paint, therefore wade can't drive and therefore is USELESS!

That's why he can dominate till the last 5 mins of the game!
The zone takes away his drive and he's completely USELESS!

You could see it he was tired he was missing open dunks and layups

[JWiLL02]

This is how it always seems to be with Kobe though, his stats, while impressive, consistently pale in comparison to his peers. This leaves his defenders to abandon all factual arguments (stats) and take up arms in the realm of subjective opinion ("he's more clutch/skilled/composed/better work ethic/focused/intense"), and frankly it has become so played out at this point. Even his "superior" defense (in his prime years) is still propped up by opinion more than anything as measuring defensive ability/value purely through stats (even advanced stats) is impossible.

At some point people need to admit that perhaps the reason Kobe consistently lags behind his most oft compared to rivals (MJ/Lebron and even Wade of late) in terms of actual in-game production is due to being an ever so slightly inferior basketball talent.

This is just something thats been bugging me since 2008 when Chris Paul clearly had a better individual season than Kobe yet lost out on MVP to him. Seeing his defenders coming out of the woodwork claiming Kobe deserved MVP over CP3 due to *insert immeasurable intangible here* was sickening. That just seems to be a recurring theme in every Kobe-related thread on this site...

I'm not a Kobe defender, I was simply pointing out his one incredible all around playoff run including the Finals.

The way he was getting it done in those playoffs was amazing to watch. He worked the mid range and in between game to perfection and just seemed in control at all times. His jumper was automatic that year, as opposed to what we've seen in other playoff runs.

I was in the Paul for MVP camp as well in '08. One of the best seasons of all time for a PG.

[Chosen01]

Defenses Kobe & Wade have faced since 2001....

Kobe:
2001 76ers - 98.9 DRtg (#5)
2002 Nets - 99.5 DRtg (#1)
2004 Pistons - 94.1 DRtg (#2)
2008 Celtics - 98.9 (#1)
2009 Magic - 101.9 DRtg (#1)
2010 Celtics - 103.8 DRtg (#5)

Wade:
2006 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#12)
2011 Mavs - 105.0 DRtg (#7)

So basically, Kobe has had to face Top 5 defenses every year(including three #1 defenses), and all have been under 103.8 DRtg. In fact, 4 of them were sub 100 DRtg.. While Wade has never faced a Top 5 defense, nor a sub 105 DRtg defense.

Hard to compare the two when they have played under very different circumstances.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Dallas was 11th in Drtg and 7th in points allowed.

Of course Wade didn't face top 5 defensive teams in the finals, because he faced them in his path to the finals.Either way you look at it, Wade plays better against better defensive teams and has proven to all out in the finals.

This is thread is about NBA FINALS performances, so why bring up earlier rounds. I could point out that Kobe had to face the best defensive team of the 00's in his own conference(Spurs), and perfomed great against them, but that wouldn't be relevent to this discussion.You seem to be cherry pick certain series of Wade while ignoring others(like the last series against Chicago).

The fact is that Wade has not had to face a tough defensive team in the Finals, and that Kobe has had to face the toughest defense in the FInals of any superstar outside of maybe Wilt against the 60's Celtics. Wade deserves credit for taking advantage of his opponents, but it's ridiculous to act like the two have had an equal playing field.

Because you are basically penalizing Wade for not facing top 5 defensive teams like he can choose who he plays in THE FINALS.Wade played bad ONCE against a top defensive team which was last series what other am I ignoring?What you are ignoring is that Wade tore up Celtics last year by himself while Kobe struggled against the same team with more help.

[picc]

Dwade was fatigued vs Chicago in the 3rd round, but Kobe after 3 straight finals run, 14 seasons, and on a knee that required surgery right after the season, wasn't? Dwade was fatigued vs Chicago, but he's less fatigued now, after more games and more minutes? Kobe of this and last year vs Wade this year and last is a fair perspective, even though Wade is in his prime and Kobe is years removed from his?

Everyone here has an allegiance and wants to protect their guys, including Laker fans. But people don't even try to do any critical thinking. Everyone is so concerned with being right, no matter what.

These two have never played the same team under the same circumstances, so there are no apples to apples arguments to close a debate. There are certainly real arguments to be made that Wade is a better overall/playoff/finals player, but people are either too jaded or too lazy to make them. IMO.

[An Unbiased Fan]

This is thread is about NBA FINALS performances, so why bring up earlier rounds. I could point out that Kobe had to face the best defensive team of the 00's in his own conference(Spurs), and perfomed great against them, but that wouldn't be relevent to this discussion.You seem to be cherry pick certain series of Wade while ignoring others(like the last series against Chicago).

The fact is that Wade has not had to face a tough defensive team in the Finals, and that Kobe has had to face the toughest defense in the FInals of any superstar outside of maybe Wilt against the 60's Celtics. Wade deserves credit for taking advantage of his opponents, but it's ridiculous to act like the two have had an equal playing field.

Because you are basically penalizing Wade for not facing top 5 defensive teams like he can choose who he plays in THE FINALS.Wade played bad ONCE against a top defensive team which was last series what other am I ignoring?What you are ignoring is that Wade tore up Celtics last year by himself while Kobe struggled against the same team with more help.

I'm not penalizing Wade at all. I'm simply pointing out that the competition he has faced in the Finals, has been vastly different from what Kobe has faced. So when people compare stats, that's a big factor in the discussion.

[Gongxi]

If the Heat win, Kobe Vs Wade becomes an argument. Thats two rings that he won on his own as the best player on the team just like Kobe. And if the Heat win multiple titles as expected its going to be close. I mean Ive always felt like those two have been very very close. But even Kobe hasnt dominated in the finals like this.

No! Judging basketball players is not done by counting up how many rings and Finals MVPs or some **** they have. If you think Kobe and Wade are close, then it doesn't matter if the Heat win or not. If you think Kobe and Wade aren't close, it also doesn't matter if the Heat win or not.

JUDGE THEM BASED UPON HOW THEY PLAY BASKETBALL!

[Hon-essim]

Except for most of his careers, Kobe was judged based on his ring and then the rest were supplemented afterwards.

Sure he had regular season games where you can't help but think he is dominant but often times during those playoffs, you wonder how come he falls off so drastically.

He's kind of the Kareem of guards. He had flat out dominant games but he had games too where you just can't get pass the quality of his team versus his peers except for the longevity of his career but there's enough evidences of let downs there to liquify his case over someone who has actually won a ring as the main player while far out just dominating the Finals.

[Flynt Flossy]

See, Unbiased Fan, what I don't get is why you criticize LeBron's performance in the '07 Finals considering he faced the Spurs (who allowed the least points in the league that year) and then defend Kobe for having faced good defenses too....seems like a bit of a double standard to me, tbh..

[Catch]

in the last 16 years, here are the teams that made it to the finals with their defensive rating. Wade has played two of them. He has never played a team with a top 5 defense in the Finals. He has played the same soft Mavs who have no legit bigs twice.

1. 1998-99 San Antonio Spurs - 95.0
2. 2003-04 Detroit Pistons Roster - 95.4
3. 1998-99 New York Knickerbockers - 97.5
5. 2002-03 New Jersey Nets - 98.1
6. 1999-00 Los Angeles Lakers - 98.2
7. 2004-05 San Antonio Spurs - 98.8
8. 2000-01 Philadelphia 76ers - 98.9
9. 2007-08 Boston Celtics - 98.9
10. 2001-02 New Jersey - 99.5
11. 2002-03 San Antonio Spurs - 99.7
12. 1997-98 Chicago Bulls - 99.8
13. 2006-07 San Antonio Spurs - 99.9
14. 2004-05 Detroit Pistons - 101.2
15. 2003-04 Los Angeles Lakers - 101.3
16. 2006-07 Cleveland Cavaliers -101.3
17. 2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers - 101.7
18. 1995-96 Chicago Bulls - 101.8
19. 2008-09 Orlando Magic - 101.9
20. 1995-96 Seattle SuperSonics - 102.1
21. 1996-97 Chicago Bulls - 102.4
22. 2010-11 Miami Heat - 103.5
23. 1999-00 Indiana Pacers - 103.6
24. 2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers - 103.7
25. 2009-10 Boston Celtics - 103.8
26. 1996-97 Utah Jazz - 104.0
27. 2005-06 Miami Heat - 104.5
28. 2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers - 104.7
29. 2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers - 104.8
30. 2005-06 Dallas Mavericks - 105.0
31. 2010-11 Dallas Mavericks - 105.0
32. 1997-98 Utah Jazz - 105.4
33. 2007-08 Los Angeles Lakers - 105.5

wade has had the luxury to play against the worst defensive team in the last decade that has made the finals. and probably the worst interior defense that has made the finals EVER!

he''ll never surpass kobe. prime wade is essentially a worse version of kobe. kobe gives you everything wade does, but is much better at wade's weaknesses (FT shooting, Mid-range shooting, Three-point shooting).

[ERRDAY3]

Wade's already beaten the top defenses to get to the finals so it does not matter who he plays in finals

[dhh2h]

Wade's already beaten the top defenses to get to the finals so it does not matter who he plays in finals

Yes because he played so well getting past them
18 pts on 40% shooting with 5TO!

[Sedale Threatt]

He has played the same soft Mavs who have no legit bigs twice.

Tyson Chandler is one of the better defensive bigs in the league, and Dallas is a very solid defensive team. The point remains that Kobe has played much better defensive teams on the whole, but Wade is lighting up a pretty solid team. Credit where credit is due.

[The MVPlaya]

Hold up. Wade is down 3-2 in the Finals with the best player in the league by his side, and we're actually discussing him surpassing Kobe Bryant's CAREER?

[Shamizy]

PER? The John Hollinger line of thinking? Oh dear god.

[Doctor MJ]

Wade was tired you could see it he was winded by the first quarter was missing open dunks, lay ups, and shots his shoulder was hurting and he never plays good in Chicago anyways. I also heard he was sick and throwing up before the series started.

No he wasn't tired. That's an excuse and no he wasn't throwing up.

He had almost a week break from the boston series before they played chicago.
He was locked down simple. You just don't understand basketball to get it.
Wade only scores through pick and roll and drives. He has no jump shot.
So he depends on teams that play bad pick and roll with no or soft bigs.

No idea about Wade being sick, but the idea that there wasn't something wrong with Wade during the Chicago series is just bizarre. I hate when people say "Just watch the game!", but seriously, the most impressive thing about Wade in this series hasn't been the scoring, it's been the way he's been flying around the court on both offense and defense. Besides his stats are better across the board. He's more than doubled his assists and is tied for the lead among all players in blocks in this series (while popping up seemingly everywhere) for crying out loud.

[Mourning_Would]

Wade's already beaten the top defenses to get to the finals so it does not matter who he plays in finals

Yes because he played so well getting past them
18 pts on 40% shooting with 5TO!

Yeah, just ignore the Celtics series.

Im a Wade fan and i dont think Wade's better then Kobe carreer-wise, but its not as huge of a gap as Kobe-riders make it seem.