Why do the stats hate on Kobe Bryant?

Don Draper · Post #61 » by **Don Draper** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:29 pm

Why are you only using Win Shares Ruhiel?

NZB2323 · Post #62 » by **NZB2323** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:44 pm

I don't think that Kobe Bryant is top 10 all time, but that's no knock.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russel
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Big O
10. Moses Malone
11. Shaq
12. Kobe

That's my list.

And I have a question for all those arguing about stats/watching games and being pro-kobe/anti-kobe. If you believe that Kobe is underrated/overrated do you feel the same way about Derrick Rose? It seems like a lot of arguments in this thread could be used for Drose as well as Kobe.

MrBigShot · Post #63 » by **MrBigShot** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:59 pm

I agree 100%. People say Kobe is an unbelievable scorer, but he really isn't. He never scored 81, 50+ 4 straight times, 62 in 3 quarters or took one of the worst teams in recent memory and nearly beat the Suns averaging 35 a game. His stats suck.

Post #64 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:14 pm

NZB2323 wrote:
And I have a question for all those arguing about stats/watching games and being pro-kobe/anti-kobe. If you believe that Kobe is underrated/overrated do you feel the same way about Derrick Rose? It seems like a lot of arguments in this thread could be used for Drose as well as Kobe.

Meh, not so much. Rose is a meh scorer who was over-reliant on a three that abandoned him pretty fast for his peak ability, and when it failed in the playoffs in particular it burned him.

Kobe is legitimately one of the best perimeter scorers we've seen. Not quite as good as Jordan, but that's really more of a compliment than anything, because Jordan was other-worldly. Depending on whether or not you consider Oscar a 2-guard, Kobe's one of the top 3 or 4 best shooting guards the league has seen, perhaps even #2. I've been consistently ranking him at the bottom of my top 10 for a year or two now; not that my personal ranking is some deciding factor, I mean just to add my thoughts to the situation. Given his overall ability and his career achievements, it gets harder and harder to fashion an argument to keep him out. I have Shaq a couple of spots above him for the moment, and I think it'll stay that way unless Kobe summons something up to get another title run going. We'll see what happens post-Phil, but Kobe's definitely had an exceptional career. Hard to match, really, only a special few can.

Love him or hate him, it's really hard to look at his resume, and even his advanced stats, and fail to come to the conclusion that he's one of the best to ever lace 'em up. You can argue about jockeying for specific position, but just on career resume and achievements as the central player of his franchise alone, he's a top 15 player.

Prolific Scorer · Post #65 » by **Prolific Scorer** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:14 pm

Because Kobe has always been more hype/flash than substance.

Post #66 » by **tsherkin** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:17 pm

Prolific Scorer wrote:Because Kobe has always been more hype/flash than substance.

You mean because he didn't lead a team to back-to-back titles, or because he didn't win back-to-back scoring titles? Or because he didn't set the record for consecutive threes made? Or because he doesn't hold the record for highest single-game points total scored after 1962?

He isn't an MVP? His Lakers haven't won 57+ games for the last 4 years straight? Actually, 57, 65, 57 and 57. They didn't make three consecutive trips to the Finals and don't have 4 straight division titles?

That's that lack of substance we're talking about, right?

RandomKnight · Post #67 » by **RandomKnight** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:19 pm

NZB2323 wrote:I don't think that Kobe Bryant is top 10 all time, but that's no knock.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russel
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Big O
10. Moses Malone
11. Shaq
12. Kobe

That's my list.

And I have a question for all those arguing about stats/watching games and being pro-kobe/anti-kobe. If you believe that Kobe is underrated/overrated do you feel the same way about Derrick Rose? It seems like a lot of arguments in this thread could be used for Drose as well as Kobe.

There is no argument for Moses or Oscar over Kobe in the goat list-just paper thin one dimensional attacks that any rational and objective person could see through. Kobe is one of the eight or so players that there is no argument for keeping him out of the top ten.

I have him in one group that is not ranked that fills the four through eight spots on the list.

Also Shaq is in the top ten for sure too.

Ruhiel · Post #68 » by **Ruhiel** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:08 am

The prototype for big guards. Oscar Robertson has a case. Rings no. More of a Mismatch and contributing wins and cross-generational talent. I believe so. : )

And thats were stats start hating. Robertson was an obvious mismatch but as a PG he got the ball more than Bryant. Rebounded more. You control the ball control the game.

Robertson dominated the ball more than Bryant and available stats say he produced more than Kobe.

Post #69 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:13 am

Ruhiel wrote:Oscar Robertson has a case. Rings no. More of a Mismatch? yes. : )

Unprecedented statistical achievement, too.

RandomKnight · Post #70 » by **RandomKnight** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:19 am

Ruhiel wrote:Oscar Robertson has a case. Rings no. More of a Mismatch? yes. : )

There is a generally accepted set of criteria that is used to formulate the goat status. How you weight them is what decides placement. In the context of those criteria, some players have achieved too much and peaked too high for you to find ten players above them. Kobe is one of those players. Good as he was, Oscar is not. I can see arguing him in the 9-15 range though. I'd have him twelvish.

Ruhiel · Post #71 » by **Ruhiel** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:43 am

RandomKnight wrote:
Ruhiel wrote:Oscar Robertson has a case. Rings no. More of a Mismatch? yes. : )

There is a generally accepted set of criteria that is used to formulate the goat status. How you weight them is what decides placement. In the context of those criteria, some players have achieved too much and peaked too high for you to find ten players above them. Kobe is one of the players. Good as he was, Oscar is definitively not. I can see arguing him in the 9-15 range though. I'd have him twelvish.

There's another criteria that says you take Oscar Robertson facilitating Shaq's Lakers over Kobe + Shaq's Lakers.

You take
"Generally accepted"= popular opinion. Doesn't mean opinion is correct. Just means its popular and leads to sad threads like "Why do Stats hate on Kobe Bryant?"

Post #72 » by **semi-sentient** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:19 am

lalball81 wrote:Great article done on this a couple years ago:

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2009 ... stics-hate

That was a good read. I've always suspected that assists and defense were the reasons for his lower PER, and that article pretty much confirms it. The reasoning is sound, although not entirely ground-breaking. His points on Wade's defense, are, well, on point.

Anyway, to use two other great players in the PER debate, it's always struck me as incredibly odd that CP3's PER was so much higher than Magic's (even at his peak). I don't think anyone in their right mind would subscribe to the notion that CP3 was better than Magic, yet he's busted Magic's best PER twice in his short 6-year career, and both times it was when he was a young buck and clearly not in his prime yet.

Then you have a guy like Tim Duncan, whose PER has always been rather Kobe-like. Is it fair to even consider that Wade and CP3, among others, are superior based on PER? I think not.

The other advanced stats such as TS% actually do favor Kobe, but there's a lot more to it than just comparing raw TS%. You really have to look at the league average to get a better picture of how efficient a player is, and in Kobe's early days the league average TS% was WAY lower than it is now. The league average TS% in Kobe's first 6 years as a starter was .517, which is considerably lower than the .540+ that we've seen the past 5 or so seasons. Kobe's during that time frame was .549, which is pretty damn good all things considered (volume, eagerness to shoot difficult shots, etc.).

I don't even take WS seriously.

Clutch stats? Kobe's been phenomenal in the post-season (you know, when it matters), up there with some of the best. He built his clutch reputation early on and in recent years those numbers have declined, but you'd be crazy to think he hasn't been great in crunch time throughout his career. His regular season clutch stats aren't that great though. In fact, they're pretty bad. No one judges great clutch players on what they do in the regular season though, so I tend to discount that for the most part.

SideshowBob · Post #73 » by **SideshowBob** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:27 am

Ehh, I'd argue he's been great in regular season clutch stats the past few years as well. He was the leading per minute clutch scorer back in 09 (albeit by a very small margin) on 60%TS, and second in '10 at about 57.8% TS, and back up to first again last year, though his efficiency dropped.

hourockman · Post #74 » by **hourockman** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:31 am

lalball81 wrote:Also, goldenstateofmind definitely seems to have a bit of a bias against Kobe. Since when do Warrior fans hate Kobe so much? I was reading their comments on the top 10 players in the league one time, and the bitterness of some of the posts was astounding. Pretty much the consensus of the commenters was that it was laughable for Kobe to be considered a top 10 current player.

The bitterness is so tangible on their board after Laker gms that I read it for enjoyment. I actually like them as a group in a warped way.

Post #75 » by **semi-sentient** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:39 am

SideshowBob wrote:Ehh, I'd argue he's been great in regular season clutch stats the past few years as well. He was the leading per minute clutch scorer back in 09 (albeit by a very small margin) on 60%TS, and second in '10 at about 57.8% TS, and back up to first again last year, though his efficiency dropped.

Yeah, you're right. I guess I was thinking about his poor shooting "in the last 24 seconds" when I made that comment, but I typically like to use the last 5 minutes when looking at how well a player performs in pressure situations, so my mistake.

Doormatt · Post #76 » by **Doormatt** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:48 am

KV20 wrote:
c rasheed wrote:Most valuable scorer

What other arbitrary statistic have they come up with over the years.

http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2011/1 ... le-scorers

I certainly hope you know that this only includes last year.

Doormatt · Post #77 » by **Doormatt** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:51 am

Kobe is in the top 5 of most +/- studies, and he does pretty well in win shares as well, 21st all time. For reference, Hakeem is 17th and Duncan is 15th.

Post #78 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:17 am

KV20 wrote:By this title i mean why the fact he is the best doesn't translate on his stats?

Well obviously it should be noted that stats absolutely consider Kobe a Tier 1 superstar, so it's hard to say they hate him.

Why doesn't his game translate to stats better? I would rather "Why does his phenomenal set of skills not help his team quite as much as people think it does?", and to me the answer is pretty clearly: Because he tends to fall in love with stuff that doesn't translate to highest team efficiency. This is due to a combination of factors, but probably the two biggies are: 1) Relative weakness at being able to accurately gauge his own scoring position compared to teammates (Overrates self), 2) A reluctance to go inside like Wade which reduces his impact in the moment but will probably result in him having a significantly better longevity.

The other component to the confusion is the inability of fans to recognize that the ability to play great defense, and actually playing great defense are two different things. Legitimately, Kobe has great defensive talent, but for many years now he's conserved energy on the defensive end in a typical game.This is actually imho his biggest current weakness vs LeBron, who is simply younger with more stamina.

Ruhiel · Post #79 » by **Ruhiel** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:19 am

Don Draper wrote:Why are you only using Win Shares Ruhiel?

Because every player has a role and WS/48 rewards role players more than PER.

Code: Select all

PER   ORtg   DRtg   WS/48
23.6   110   107   0.159
23.5   113   103   0.208

One is D Rose and 1 is Westbrook.
WS/48 says Rose is a top player and more versatile than Westbrook. WS/48 is a function of minutes reveals super subs and shows how you can use bench players to try to compete with superstars.

And its a percentage. Ten players on the floor a neutral/average talent ie Tyrus Thomas or Jason Terry that a neutral talent player is 10% ie Derrick Rose is 20% so he does twice as much as those guys.

WS/48, defensive wins, offensive wins just makes more sense and is easier to break down and separate and form strategies from minutes played than PER.

italianleather · Post #80 » by **italianleather** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:32 am

tsherkin wrote:
Prolific Scorer wrote:Because Kobe has always been more hype/flash than substance.

You mean because he didn't lead a team to back-to-back titles, or because he didn't win back-to-back scoring titles? Or because he didn't set the record for consecutive threes made? Or because he doesn't hold the record for highest single-game points total scored after 1962?

He isn't an MVP? His Lakers haven't won 57+ games for the last 4 years straight? Actually, 57, 65, 57 and 57. They didn't make three consecutive trips to the Finals and don't have 4 straight division titles?

That's that lack of substance we're talking about, right?

Epic Fail.

Greatest supporting cast in NBA history laughs at you.