Chicago Bulls = The Leagues Newest Treadmill Team?

[Cliff Levingston]

A lot of tenuous assumptions here. Perhaps even *brittle.*

There's really no concern for Rose not being able to come back healthy. That's a given. The problem is him staying healthy and not tearing another knee ligament which seems to become a trend. That's obviously a huge question mark but the Bulls are committed to him via the big contract they gave him. At the end of the day, it all depends on what he can do. Either he's a really good player or more and leads the Bulls to finals appearances and/or wins or weighs down the salary structure enough to prevent a contender from being put together.

So, if your point is to point out that the Bulls aren't going to win a title with this team, then wow, you're a brilliant guy. Again, no team is going to win a title without their best player on the floor.

[peralta]

i dont believe the Bulls is a treadmill team...there is nothing wrong with playing hard night in and night out despite your teams situation not having your best player available...at the end of the season whether they win or lose out in the post season theyll be content knowing they left it all on the court. Thats how teams should play...i hate the tanking mentality.

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[heatwillbeback]

It's weird

The are contenders IMO if Rose is healthy, but even with rose healthy they do cost cutting moves and don't like being in the luxury tax.

You are in fn Chicago, pay whatever is needed. That's what I don't get.

No they don't. They were in the luxury tax when he signed his new contract. We only now made a move (trade Deng) to get out of the tax this year (while Rose is out) because we will likely get back in it next year when he's playing while also avoiding the repeating tax.

The stigma that the Bulls are cheap is wrong...they're just smart and realistic with their current circumstances.

2012-2013 was the first year they did so.

It actually makes sense for them to drop it this year, IF they plan on using boozer money and deng money to get a big name like Melo. If not, shoulda resigned deng. We will see what they do. Also with the new Cba getting out for a year is good long term to avoid the repeater tax.

2010-2011 and 2011-2012 they were contenders and were not in the tax. That's after losing much of that great bench from 2010-2011 that they should of paid to keep IMO

Bulls have money, and yes they are smart with money. I don't deny that. But when you are contenders sometimes you just have to eat the bill. Thunder have an excuse because okc is not a real nba city, but Chicago is one of the best nba cities easily, with the biggest arena. They could afford to do what they please.

[dice]

another example of why you need to raise the maximum salary to 30 million. Melo, Rose, Noah, and Butler(All-Star player in the making), Mirotic look like a continuation of the Heat, once the Heat get old.

melo, noah, lebron, and bosh are all the same age. the heat won't be done until lebron and bosh are done, by which point melo and noah will be done as well

[mrcalzone]

How are the Mavs a treadmill team? They won a title..

[FreeChef]

A lot of tenuous assumptions here. Perhaps even *brittle.*

There's really no concern for Rose not being able to come back healthy. That's a given. The problem is him staying healthy and not tearing another knee ligament which seems to become a trend. That's obviously a huge question mark but the Bulls are committed to him via the big contract they gave him. At the end of the day, it all depends on what he can do. Either he's a really good player or more and leads the Bulls to finals appearances and/or wins or weighs down the salary structure enough to prevent a contender from being put together.

So, if your point is to point out that the Bulls aren't going to win a title with this team, then wow, you're a brilliant guy. Again, no team is going to win a title without their best player on the floor.

Yes, you're right--at some point in the future he will "come back healthy," if only for fleeting glimpses but seriously, there's debate over whether Rose's knee problems have become "a trend"? I've barely seen the guy play in several years.

Anyhow, some of the Bulls supporters in this thread try to make the case that the Bulls are somehow exempt from being labeled a "treadmill team" for whatever reason. Obviously they're not the same without Rose, but it is what it is. Many treadmill teams have fallen into this category for a variety of reasons; having a brittle "superstar" doesn't make the Bulls different than any other mediocre squad, or trying hard and playing with passion and energy (see Karl's Nuggets or some of those Boozer-Deron Jazz teams).

[dice]

2010-2011 and 2011-2012 they were contenders and were not in the tax. That's after losing much of that great bench from 2010-2011 that they should of paid to keep IMO

they had the same bench in 2011-2012, were again contenders and were again not in a position to pay the tax. derrick rose got injured at the end of that season, at which point asik and korver's services were not retained in order to avoid luxury tax. ironically they ended up paying the tax anyway when nobody would take rip's contract off their hands at the trade deadline

asik was not worth keeping around as a backup center at the money he got from the rockets. but it's fair to criticize the korver dump (even though belinelli was brought in as a replacement at a fraction of the price) because everyone expected rose to return well in advance of the playoffs

[dice]

there's debate over whether Rose's knee problems have become "a trend"? I've barely seen the guy play in several years.

2 = several?

different knee, different injury. we'll see

[FreeChef]

there's debate over whether Rose's knee problems have become "a trend"? I've barely seen the guy play in several years.

2 = several?

different knee, different injury. we'll see

Really, this is the case for hope?

"Oh, it would be much worse if only one knee was injured instead of both of them...Oh, he hasn't played meaningful basketball in TWO years, not THREE (let's ignore the pattern of small cumulative ailments when he did play...let's ignore that he hasn't really looked all that great...)"

I'm sure you'll understand my skepticism.

[HomoSapien]

I feel like you're a treadmill team if you're limping into the playoffs year after year and are an automatic first round exit.

Bulls aren't a treadmill team. They're not a guaranteed first round exit, so in my mind they're competing in a meaningful way. I think the OP mentioned the Hawks. I agree that they sort of were a treadmill team. Even if they were capable of winning a playoff series, they had maxed out. JJ's contract prevented them from improving. That's not the case with the Bulls as they have several obvious ways to potentially add potential key pieces:

- Rose becoming healthy
- Mirotic living up to his expectations (or coming close to them)
- Amnestying Boozer and signing a key free-agent
- Continuing to draft well with their multiple picks.

[mg]

Even an 80% Rose + Melo instantly lifts the Bulls back into the conversation for a future 'ship. I seriously doubt Melo would consider the Bulls if they missed the playoffs this year. Staying competitive is key to snagging top tier FA's.

[dice]

there's debate over whether Rose's knee problems have become "a trend"? I've barely seen the guy play in several years.

2 = several?

different knee, different injury. we'll see

Really, this is the case for hope?

it's not a case for despair...third time's the charm

[FreeChef]

I feel like you're a treadmill team if you're limping into the playoffs year after year and are an automatic first round exit.

Bulls aren't a treadmill team. They're not a guaranteed first round exit, so in my mind they're competing in a meaningful way. I think the OP mentioned the Hawks. I agree that they sort of were a treadmill team. Even if they were capable of winning a playoff series, they had maxed out. JJ's contract prevented them from improving. That's not the case with the Bulls as they have several obvious ways to potentially add potential key pieces:

- Rose becoming healthy
- Mirotic living up to his expectations (or coming close to them)
- Amnestying Boozer and signing a key free-agent
- Continuing to draft well with their multiple picks.

Arbitrary stipulations, this seems to me--"competing in a meaningful way...automatic first round exit."

Taking the Hawks for example. Those Josh Smith-led teams advanced to the second round (I know they beat the Wade-led Heat in 2009). The Hawks even took a great Celtics squad to 7 games in the first round.

All that said, the Hawks still stood/stand as a treadmill team, as do the current Bulls under the classic definition. Don't see the need to inject random qualifiers to make the Bulls look good. Many respectable teams have been treadmill teams.

EDIT: Key also, I think, in some treadmill teams and the rhetoric of their supporting fan bases is the repeated emphasis of the promise of "potential."

[I beg to differ]

How are the Mavs a treadmill team? They won a title..

It took the 50's/60's Celtics 13 long years to (fiiiinally) win 11 titles. Those 2 years when they didn't win were a total disgrace. Not worth it. Same with the '99 Bulls - like what was the point of winning championships if they're just gonna suddenly stop? A few years ago, the Spurs were a treadmill team every other year.

If you make a last second shot in a game 7 of the finals that would have won a championship, but the shot is ruled to have left your hands after the buzzer, your team is as treadmill as it gets. If that call is overturned, the other team's fans should stop buying tickets because they're just rewarding management for putting together hot garbage treadmill teams.

[Winsome Gerbil]

The difference is that the Bulls have been counting on Rose coming back to put them over the top, and they made a move to get a high draft pick with the Deng trade. I do think that this is largely coach related though. Management is willing and ready to take a dive for some talent, the coach is one of those old school stubborn bastards who's going to fight and claw for every point and doesn't care about big picture.

[defhalotones]

When healthy, they're arguably a top 5 team. In the entire league....
Get outta here with that treadmill crap.

[timdunkit]

Not sure how the Mavericks are a treadmill team.

Think about it, if people followed this tank or championship mantra, the Spurs would have been broken up way before they reached the finals last year. Same with the 11 Mavs. This years Portlands team would have been broken up as well.

There are 30 teams in the league.

Tanking isn't a viable option for every team, someone has to fill in the gaps between 2-29.

[kingofthecourt67]

I wish this "all or nothing" philosophy peddled by the quants could be driven out of sports and especially the NBA. Watching the Bulls compete season after season against all odds is one of the best things about today's league and I'd rather be them than 76ers no matter how much success their shameful plunge may or might not yield.

Shameful?

Before this season, we were the epitome of a treadmill team. Aside from the year we got Turner, we were on the fringe of making/missing the playoffs for the last decade. We swung for the fences with Bynum and that crippled our team. Our team was built so he would be our #1 option. Evan Turner, Jrue Holiday, Spencer Hawes were not capable of filling that void once we realized he would never wear a 76er jersey. Unfortunately our management was smart enough to realize that being somewhat relevant requires a #1 and #2 option--and we didn't have that. So there are 3 ways to get those type of top-end players. Draft, free agency, and trade. With current trends, no superstar free agent was walking through our door. So we had to resort to number 1 and 3. We blew up our team because those guys--aside from Jrue Holiday [2 things--I'm not saying he was a #1 and #2 and that Holiday trade was lauded around the league]--were not championship level starters. So why should we overpay for glorified back-ups?

In terms of success this season, while our management made certain choices, our players still go out there and play hard. We just don't have talent. Chicago does. And they truly are a remarkable story to watch--no disagreement from me. Thibs has done an absolutely amazing job and Noah is playing out of his mind. But let's not forget, their management has made things harder for them to succeed as well [i.e. trading Deng, being generally cheap, not retaining assistant coaches]. And I know the Sixers do it because we're thinking of long-term success. I feel absolutely no shame in what we're doing. Perhaps 31 years without a championship will do that to a team's fans.

[Slava]

I wish this "all or nothing" philosophy peddled by the quants could be driven out of sports and especially the NBA. Watching the Bulls compete season after season against all odds is one of the best things about today's league and I'd rather be them than 76ers no matter how much success their shameful plunge may or might not yield.

Shameful?

Before this season, we were the epitome of a treadmill team. Aside from the year we got Turner, we were on the fringe of making/missing the playoffs for the last decade. We swung for the fences with Bynum and that crippled our team. Our team was built so he would be our #1 option. Evan Turner, Jrue Holiday, Spencer Hawes were not capable of filling that void once we realized he would never wear a 76er jersey. Unfortunately our management was smart enough to realize that being somewhat relevant requires a #1 and #2 option--and we didn't have that. So there are 3 ways to get those type of top-end players. Draft, free agency, and trade. With current trends, no superstar free agent was walking through our door. So we had to resort to number 1 and 3. We blew up our team because those guys--aside from Jrue Holiday [2 things--I'm not saying he was a #1 and #2 and that Holiday trade was lauded around the league]--were not championship level starters. So why should we overpay for glorified back-ups?

In terms of success this season, while our management made certain choices, our players still go out there and play hard. We just don't have talent. Chicago does. And they truly are a remarkable story to watch--no disagreement from me. Thibs has done an absolutely amazing job and Noah is playing out of his mind. But let's not forget, their management has made things harder for them to succeed as well [i.e. trading Deng, being generally cheap, not retaining assistant coaches]. And I know the Sixers do it because we're thinking of long-term success. I feel absolutely no shame in what we're doing. Perhaps 31 years without a championship will do that to a team's fans.

The Bulls did not tank to get where they are now. They drafted much smarter, got a head coach that's making the sum of the parts much greater than the team itself and showed grit and determination, which is respected by their fans and by players/coaches around the league.

Now if a free agent hits the market, don't you think he'd find Chicago more appealing as a franchise? Bulls traded Deng but they are still at or close to the tax apron, they are not below the league minimum pay roll, they never were.

In NBA like in real life, if you build a good culture you will attract free agents. If you don't you'll end up being caught up in a cycle of irrelevance.

Even Sam Hinkie's mentor, Morey always maintained a team that was good enough to challenge for the playoff spot, they only missed once in their rebuild. They eventually accumulated assets to build their team. I can't generally recall a team that willingly gutted their roster and succeeded as a result.

[reignfire]

A treadmill team is a team playing for seed 5-9 at their max potential.

The Bulls at their max potential is a 3-4 seed talent wise.