Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[Yoshun]

What I learned on the game board today:
1. MJ had it easy
2. I should be afraid of deer
3. Booker's 70 points don't count
4. Westbrook's TDs don't help his team
5. The Earth is flat

[Mbrahv0528]

The Utah Jazz were the best teams MJ faced and they scored 54 in Game 3 of the 98 Finals. 54 freaking points. They never eclipsed 90 that entire Finals. They wouldn't be better than a healthy Clippers team in the league right now. The competition Lebron faced was on another level compared to what MJ had to go through. The league was watered down in the 90s for 3 main reasons:

1) unusually weak late 80s drafts
2) expansion
3) foreign play hadn't taken off

There's not a chance in hell MJ wins 6 rings in today's nba. He might have won 2011 vs the Mavs but he could never provide the 2 way play Lebron played in 2016 to bring the Cavs back from the brink. LeBron produced GOAT wing defensive impact last finals. MJ is not rattling off Games 5 and 6 and leading every player in every counting stat category no matter how much you lionize him.

What in the ****? A team with 2 of the greatest players of all time wouldn't be a good as a decent LAC squad based on a few arbitrarily picked games? Please stop this nonsense. It's embarrassing.

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[Mbrahv0528]

What I learned on the game board today:
1. MJ had it easy
2. I should be afraid of deer
3. Booker's 70 points don't count
4. Westbrook's TDs don't help his team
5. The Earth is flat

Oh add to this list that the Utah Jazz of Stockton and Malone greatness would not be as good as the LAC this year. My brain hurts.

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[Ballings7]

Ahhhh,

All these people who never really watched Mike.

As someone who grew up watching 90s 'Ball, stopped after Jordan's second retirement, and got back into following the NBA in 2002 (didn't miss much) any one of Jordan's Bulls teams would of beat the Warriors, Heat, and Cavs. Especially the 1996 and 1993 teams. Not so sure about Duncan/Pop Spur's due to the defense and Duncan. 2003 Spurs, yeah, they would of beat them.

Jordan's competition is greater than LeBron's, as well. Just higher quality and tougher defenses. A more balanced league without soft foul calls to parade guys to the line every other game.

~ MJGOAT ~

[Duke4life831]

The Utah Jazz were the best teams MJ faced and they scored 54 in Game 3 of the 98 Finals. 54 freaking points. They never eclipsed 90 that entire Finals. They wouldn't be better than a healthy Clippers team in the league right now. The competition Lebron faced was on another level compared to what MJ had to go through. The league was watered down in the 90s for 3 main reasons:

1) unusually weak late 80s drafts
2) expansion
3) foreign play hadn't taken off

There's not a chance in hell MJ wins 6 rings in today's nba. He might have won 2011 vs the Mavs but he could never provide the 2 way play Lebron played in 2016 to bring the Cavs back from the brink. LeBron produced GOAT wing defensive impact last finals. MJ is not rattling off Games 5 and 6 and leading every player in every counting stat category no matter how much you lionize him.

What in the ****? A team with 2 of the greatest players of all time wouldn't be a good as a decent LAC squad based on a few arbitrarily picked games? Please stop this nonsense. It's embarrassing.

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Haha the Utah Jazz is basically the Clips but just a lot better. PnR combo of Stockton and Malone vs CP3 and Blake. A defensive big that blocked shots left and right in Ostertag vs Jordan. And then a veteran sharp shooting SG in Hornacek vs Redick. That Jazz team would roll over this Clips team.

[og15]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

Dirk was great, but if the Heat as a whole were equally as great they wouldn't have lost. They went to 6 games with Lebron averaging 18/7/7 and scoring 20 points or less in 4/6 games despite playing 39-46 mins in every game. In game 6 they lost by 11 points and were -24 when Lebron was on the floor. That was just a tough series for him, and he didn't have enough confidence in his own abilities / Dallas had a very solid defensive game plan against him that if just shook up the whole outcome. Dirk's performances alone was not going to win that series without Dallas' defense on Lebron. Dirk actually had his least efficient series (41.6% FG / 36.8% 3PT / .537 TS% / 105 Ortg). He hit some big shots, but having the long view picture, if the Heat had played better earlier in those games they wouldn't have landed in situations where Dirk could close out games with big shots in the first place.

Of course Terry was also big, can't neglect his performances too.

[TheDavinciCHODE]

Ahhhh,

All these people who never really watched Mike.

As someone who grew up watching 90s 'Ball, stopped after Jordan's second retirement, and got back into following the NBA in 2002 (didn't miss much) any one of Jordan's Bulls teams would of beat the Warriors, Heat, and Cavs. Especially the 1996 and 1993 teams. Not so sure about Duncan/Pop Spur's due to the defense and Duncan. 2003 Spurs, yeah, they would of beat them.

Jordan's competition is greater than LeBron's, as well. Just higher quality and tougher defenses. A more balanced league without soft foul calls to parade guys to the line every other game.

~ MJGOAT ~

Pretty populist sounding post without much basis in fact. What's the basis that backs up these claims? I think MJ's teams could have win as well, not sure who would be the fave to be honest. But saying things like "higher-quality" and "tougher defense" are pretty nebulous and without any real substance. Defense might not be as physical now as back then, but it is no doubt more taxing. Defenses are so much more sophisticated now and have to cover far more of the court.

LOL "all those people who never watched Mike". Did you watch 90's basketball? Don't you remember the point guards backing down from half court with the defender forearm in their back and then dumping it into the post as just standing and watching the big go for a backdown hook?

Don't you remember Scottie bringing the ball up and dishing to Mike in an iso at the elbow as the rest of the team watched?

Don't you remember teams playing 3 non-shooting forwards or centers, crowding everyone in the middle around the basket as a guard took a pull up long two off of the dribble?

That was 90's ball my man. you know it as well as I do. More physical? Yes, of course? Tougher? Well, define that. Did it mean you had to hit and push more? Yes. Did you have to move as much and cover the whole floor? No, and it's not even close. Everyone from the point guard to the big now is expected to guard out to the perimeter, switch everything, get under the basket, get to the corners, etc.

There are tons of dudes who would just be played out of the league with ease in this day and age from back then. So many guys who were bruisers, enforcers, tough guys, and generally unskilled specialists that would really struggle.

Defenses might not be as tough physically but they are without a doubt more sophisticated, and, without a doubt, playing defense in the NBA these days is much harder than it ever was back then. Maybe not in terms of the bumps and bruises you took, but definitely in terms of trying to stop the other team from scoring, moving your feet, switching, rotating, covering the floor, closing out, rebounding, etc. The game is MUCH more sophisticated, and there's no argument.

And as for the parade to the free throw line...are you aware how much MJ's contemporaries hated him for preferential treatment?

BTW, that "parade to the free throw line" seems to be without basis in fact......free throw attempted per field goal attempted are lower these days than when MJ played. A product of the free flowing, switching nature of the game. Obviously the game is called tighter in terms of arm contact and hand checking than it used to, but in terms of relative free throws taken within the flow of the game, there are fewer now than ever before in recent memory.

Jordan went to the line equally or maybe even more in his prime than Lebron did, despite Lebron playing in your "parade to the free throw line" era.

The nature of free throws taken certainly has changed in that the nature of why a player goes to the line is different than it used to be, but in reality, players actually go to the line less frequently per possession than players from other eras.

[Pg81]

Jordan is overrated to everyone that never seen him play. The people that did watch him know we saw the Babe Ruth of basketball in our lifetime.

Um no. That would be players like Wilt or Russell or Kareem or heck even Mikan. Also no, there are a few people who have seen him play and do believe he is overrated:

Watch on YouTube

Yeah I'm tired of hearing this argument.

Jordan beat:

Magic's Lakers
Barkley's Suns
Stockton-Malone's Jazz
Payton's Supersonics
Drexler's Blazers

These were all great teams. The reason we don't think of them as truly great teams (excluding the Lakers) is because Jordan stopped all of them from winning championships.

Except for the fact that:

He beat the Lakers without Kareem, Worthy and Cooper, lacking interior defense, it was essentially Magic vs MJ and Pippen. Wow so impressive winning there!

The Suns had Barkley and KJ, nothing else, and we all know that Barkley was not the most "enthusiastic" defender, making them a soft team under the basket.

Stockton and Malone with Postertag on center instead of Eaton who was leaps and bounds better on D and Russel was inferior to Thurl Bailey(Spelling?), again a soft team under the basket.

Paytons Supersonic again had no real interior defense, Payton was able to bother MJ but without a sold presence like Grant in 95 when he was on the Magic and the Bulls lost they had no chance of winning.

Drexler's Blazers? Really? What did they have outside of Drexler? Nothing.

None of these teams would have been even remotely as good without their respective superstars, meanwhile the Bulls who had to handle MJs bitch move getting a scrub as replacement at the sg spot in Myers managed to nearly get to the finals if not for that bogus call by Hollins.

[Jkam31]

You guys run away from mental asylum

Yes they did
Lebrun runs to the finals are murders row going through Toronto is no joke


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[Mbrahv0528]

Jordan is overrated to everyone that never seen him play. The people that did watch him know we saw the Babe Ruth of basketball in our lifetime.

Um no. That would be players like Wilt or Russell or Kareem or heck even Mikan. Also no, there are a few people who have seen him play and do believe he is overrated:

Watch on YouTube

So are we expected to gloss over the fact that you posted a random ass video to somehow validate your point? I'm confused..

[Pg81]

Jordan is overrated to everyone that never seen him play. The people that did watch him know we saw the Babe Ruth of basketball in our lifetime.

Um no. That would be players like Wilt or Russell or Kareem or heck even Mikan. Also no, there are a few people who have seen him play and do believe he is overrated:

Watch on YouTube

So are we expected to gloss over the fact that you posted a random ass video to somehow validate your point? I'm confused..

Do you believe I care?

[The_Hater]

Defenses were definitely tougher in the 90's, but that's because of the NBA rules and how uncreative and controlling head coaches were on offense.

Jordan would put up even more incredible numbers in today's NBA but this shouldn't be confused with the competition being weaker. It's not.

[KingDavid]

Um no. That would be players like Wilt or Russell or Kareem or heck even Mikan. Also no, there are a few people who have seen him play and do believe he is overrated:

Watch on YouTube

So are we expected to gloss over the fact that you posted a random ass video to somehow validate your point? I'm confused..

Do you believe I care?

You cared enough to post your opinion, so, yes.

[meekrab]

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

You're kidding, right? Jason Terry outscored LeBron in that series.

[Pg81]

So are we expected to gloss over the fact that you posted a random ass video to somehow validate your point? I'm confused..

Do you believe I care?

You cared enough to post your opinion, so, yes.

I care to post my opinion, I do not care what you think about it. Learn the difference.

LeBron has faced tougher competition no doubt. Spurs in 2007, 2013, and 2014, and Warriors in 2015 and 2016 were probably better than any team Jordan faced in the finals.

Jordan wouldn't have lost to the 2011 Mavericks though!

Credit where it's due... Dirk was unstoppable in the 2011 Finals... a performance for the ages. Can't fault Lebron for loosing to that.

You're kidding, right? Jason Terry outscored LeBron in that series.

Yeah I am sure the Miami Heat gave Terry the same amount of defensive attention which the Mavs gave to Lebron.

[The_Hater]

Jordan is overrated to everyone that never seen him play. The people that did watch him know we saw the Babe Ruth of basketball in our lifetime.

Um no. That would be players like Wilt or Russell or Kareem or heck even Mikan. Also no, there are a few people who have seen him play and do believe he is overrated:

Watch on YouTube

Yeah I'm tired of hearing this argument.

Jordan beat:

Magic's Lakers
Barkley's Suns
Stockton-Malone's Jazz
Payton's Supersonics
Drexler's Blazers

These were all great teams. The reason we don't think of them as truly great teams (excluding the Lakers) is because Jordan stopped all of them from winning championships.

Except for the fact that:

He beat the Lakers without Kareem, Worthy and Cooper, lacking interior defense, it was essentially Magic vs MJ and Pippen. Wow so impressive winning there!

The Suns had Barkley and KJ, nothing else, and we all know that Barkley was not the most "enthusiastic" defender, making them a soft team under the basket.

Stockton and Malone with Postertag on center instead of Eaton who was leaps and bounds better on D and Russel was inferior to Thurl Bailey(Spelling?), again a soft team under the basket.

Paytons Supersonic again had no real interior defense, Payton was able to bother MJ but without a sold presence like Grant in 95 when he was on the Magic and the Bulls lost they had no chance of winning.

Drexler's Blazers? Really? What did they have outside of Drexler? Nothing.

None of these teams would have been even remotely as good without their respective superstars, meanwhile the Bulls who had to handle MJs bitch move getting a scrub as replacement at the sg spot in Myers managed to nearly get to the finals if not for that bogus call by Hollins.

All this is nice but MJ is still widely considered the greatest player of all time. You'll always find people that disagree, 100% consensus on any subject is impossible including something is simple as 'is the world round?'

[KingDavid]

Do you believe I care?

You cared enough to post your opinion, so, yes.

I care to post my opinion, I do not care what you think about it. Learn the difference.

If you care enough to post it, you cared enough for a reply or else you'd just ignore everyone that replied to it. Why else would you post on a forum if not for having discussions? "Learn the difference"; what in the hell?

[Pg81]

You cared enough to post your opinion, so, yes.

I care to post my opinion, I do not care what you think about it. Learn the difference.

If you care enough to post it, you cared enough for a reply or else you'd just ignore everyone that replied to it. Why else would you post on a forum if not for having discussions? "Learn the difference"; what in the hell?

No, I don't.

[KingDavid]

I care to post my opinion, I do not care what you think about it. Learn the difference.

If you care enough to post it, you cared enough for a reply or else you'd just ignore everyone that replied to it. Why else would you post on a forum if not for having discussions? "Learn the difference"; what in the hell?

No, I don't.

Read the rest of that line and keep replying.

Should have just left everyone confused at your initial post if you really didn't care.

[Furinkazan]

You guys run away from mental asylum

Yes they did
Lebrun runs to the finals are murders row going through Toronto is no joke


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