Dame Lillard is Not Here for the Kyrie Comp's

[Duke4life831]

Honestly I don't blame him. Kyrie is even more one dimensional than Dame. On offense, where they both thrive Dame is also quite a bit better. Basically Kyrie is a poor man's Damien Lillard.

How is Kyrie more one dimensional than Lillard? They average the same amount of assists even though Lillard is the primary facilitator and Kyrie is the secondary on his team. Kyrie has a better FG%, 3pt%, FT%, eFG%, better FG% from every distance on the court. What dimension is Lillard bringing that Kyrie isnt? Both take 26% of their shots at the rim so they both drive the same amount so its not like Lillard is attacking the defense more.

Im not trying to down play Lillard at all, I think the dude is a stud. I just dont see what element he brings that Kyrie doesnt that makes Kyrie more one dimensional.

[Revived]

All Kyrie would have to do is tweet a pic of his championship ring and its over.

Kyrie would never do that because he knows Lillard would just tweet back a pic of LeBron.

[mattao313]

Honestly I don't blame him. Kyrie is even more one dimensional than Dame. On offense, where they both thrive Dame is also quite a bit better. Basically Kyrie is a poor man's Damien Lillard.

I disagree I feel neither are good passers and Kyrie has a much more diverse scoring game he can post up and best handle in the league which makes him damn near ungaurdable. Lillard is in love with the 3pt shot and settles a lot.

[DusterBuster]

I wish twitter would just go away.

Agreed.

[Duke4life831]

I recall the Blazers being jilted by Aldridge and we didn't get jack in return. Damian lead the team to the playoffs without any other all-stars. Last season, who was the other all-star?

At 26 Lillard just won 41 games with CJ as his #2 averaging 23 ppg on 48/42/91, 58 TS%.
At 21 Kyrie won 33 games with Dion as his #2 averaging 15 ppg on 43/36/68.

The person who took the 3rd most shots for Portland this past year was Crabbe who had shooting numbers of 46/44/84, 60 TS%.
The person who took the 3rd most shots for Cleveland in 2014 was TT who shot 47% from the field and had a 52 TS%. Im not sure what hand he was using to shot back then either.

And then Kyrie never had a guy like Nurkic (even though just for 20 games) who averaged 18/12/4. While yes Lillard hasnt played with another all star the past 2 years, having a #2 who averaged 23 points a game while flirting with a 50/40/90 season and a beast like Nurkic for the last quarter of the season is a hell of a lot more than Kyrie ever had while winning 33 games at 21.

And who, besides Aldridge, has Lillard played with who was an all-star?

Wasn't Varejao a lot like Nurkic? Wasn't Jamison a lot like Aldridge? Andrew Bynum? Luol Deng? seems like Kyrie had some decent teammates.

Varejao never came close to having the impact that Nurkic had for Portland. Are you really comparing a 35 year old Jamison to Aldridge in his prime? Really Andrew Bynum? Do you not remember that year and the side show that was Bynum? Bynum was horrific that year and only played 24 games and hasnt played an NBA game since. And they got Luol Deng for 40 games right at the start of his fall off a cliff of production. Jamison, Bynum and Deng were not decent teammates. Those are some prime examples of the horrific talent that Kyrie was surrounded by. Thats like saying, he played with Anthony Bennett, he was a #1 overall pick.

[BasketballFan7]

Cleveland would still be a lotto team, and under 500 in the East if LeBron didn't come back and Kyrie was at the helm. LeBron is the main reason Kyrie is known to be who he is, and could get a playoff win, let alone make the playoffs.

Sent from my LG-H901 using RealGM mobile app

How do we know this? Kyrie and Cleveland had a better record his first 3 years in the league than John WAll and the Wizards. Why arent the Wizards still under 500? CP3 at 21 playing alongside David West and Tyson Chandler in their primes didnt make the playoffs. How did Dallas look the first 2.5 years with Jason Kidd? IT had a worse record his first 3 years than Kyrie and IT played with Cousins every year. Kyle Lowry wasnt a legit part of a playoff team till he was 27. Steph Curry and GS didnt make the playoffs his first 3 years, Curry didnt play his first playoff game till he was 26 (Kyrie just turned 25). Heck if you go over to the Crabbe to Nets thread, there are many people over there saying Brooklyn has a shot to make the playoffs with DLO and Lin as their starting backcourt yet when Kyrie's name comes up, the best he can be is a leader on a lotto team, even in the East.

For some reason when it comes to Kyrie, since he wasnt a winner by the age of 21 with Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson taking the 2nd and 3rd most shots on his team. You officially can never win with Kyrie as your main guy. Yet tons of these other stud guards didnt win in their first 3 years (with better talent) and we just forget about those early struggles.

This is actually a very insightful and factually supported post. I don't usually change my perception of a player from one post, but you did it. Well done, I'm genuinely impressed.

It shouldn't change anything because we have a large enough sample of Kyrie + Love (LeBron off of the court) to see that Kyrie is an ineffective floor general and decision maker. He has no concept of pace or teamwork and he is a horrendous defender.

And I don't want to hear how the Cavs are built for LeBron's skill set and not Kyrie's. The goal of every team now with a premier PG, OKC being something or an exception, is to surround them with floor spacers. I can buy the overall team being bad when LeBron is off of the court, but the offensive shouldn't become so anemic. Not only is the Cavs's record without LeBron atrocious, their offense has scored more than 101 points only twice in all such games (Kyrie in, LeBron out).

[Duke4life831]

How do we know this? Kyrie and Cleveland had a better record his first 3 years in the league than John WAll and the Wizards. Why arent the Wizards still under 500? CP3 at 21 playing alongside David West and Tyson Chandler in their primes didnt make the playoffs. How did Dallas look the first 2.5 years with Jason Kidd? IT had a worse record his first 3 years than Kyrie and IT played with Cousins every year. Kyle Lowry wasnt a legit part of a playoff team till he was 27. Steph Curry and GS didnt make the playoffs his first 3 years, Curry didnt play his first playoff game till he was 26 (Kyrie just turned 25). Heck if you go over to the Crabbe to Nets thread, there are many people over there saying Brooklyn has a shot to make the playoffs with DLO and Lin as their starting backcourt yet when Kyrie's name comes up, the best he can be is a leader on a lotto team, even in the East.

For some reason when it comes to Kyrie, since he wasnt a winner by the age of 21 with Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson taking the 2nd and 3rd most shots on his team. You officially can never win with Kyrie as your main guy. Yet tons of these other stud guards didnt win in their first 3 years (with better talent) and we just forget about those early struggles.

This is actually a very insightful and factually supported post. I don't usually change my perception of a player from one post, but you did it. Well done, I'm genuinely impressed.

It shouldn't change anything because we have a large enough sample of Kyrie + Love (LeBron off of the court) to see that Kyrie is an ineffective floor general and decision maker. He has no concept of pace or teamwork and he is a horrendous defender.

And I don't want to hear how the Cavs are built for LeBron's skill set and not Kyrie's. The goal of every team now with a premier PG, OKC being something or an exception, is to surround them with floor spacers. I can buy the overall team being bad when LeBron is off of the court, but the offensive shouldn't become so anemic. Not only is the Cavs's record without LeBron atrocious, their offense has scored more than 101 points only twice in all such games (Kyrie in, LeBron out).

We have a 17 game sample size from the past 3 years, so we are talking a few random games here and there every year. And it seems like youre saying the team is built around Kyrie, this team is clearly built around Lebron. And its not just who the team was built around, its the offensive system they practice day in day out. There is no denying Cleveland's system is built 100% around Lebron, so when you practice that day in and day out and then all of a sudden take Lebron out of it for just a game or 2, the team is kind of flying blind and basically just playing pickup ball because their offensive system is sitting on the sideline. If they had a more team oriented system, the offense wouldnt look so anemic when Lebron doesnt play.

[flintsky21]

Kyrie over Dame any day.

[ItsThatEasy]

This is actually a very insightful and factually supported post. I don't usually change my perception of a player from one post, but you did it. Well done, I'm genuinely impressed.

Do you guys give Blake Griffin the same benefit of the doubt? As a rookie he led the Clippers to 32 wins despite major injury woes with Baron Davis, Chris Kaman and Eric Gordon. Yet all I hear people talk about is how 20 year old Blake didn't win much and couldn't win until CP3 came to the team etc. Bottom line is Kyrie needs help, as do all stars. But Kyrie in particular hasn't really worked on his game much. If you take his season by season from rookie till now he's added essentially nothing to his game. His PER 36+metrics are nearly identical year by year. Only reason he had a couple more ppg this year is he upped his shot attempts by 3 per game.

I do. If you go back and look at any posts of mine when it comes to Blake I think the dude is a stud. There have been many times (I believe even with you) where I have brought up what Blake did in 2015 in the playoffs as to why I think he can be the main guy on a team. Ive said many time Im actually excited to see what Blake can do with a full year without CP3.

I think it is extremely dumb to judge if someone is a winner or not from his first 3 years in the league. The Bulls finished under 500 in MJs first 3 years (I know he missed the majority of his 2nd year) and MJ came into the league at 21 (which is the age of Kyrie's last year before Lebron).

The selective memory with Blake is astounding.

He's proven himself to be an elite player when healthy but for whatever reason people choose to ignore it.

[The4thHorseman]

In defense of Haberstroh,(the article's author) Lillard's name comes up first out of 10 current and past players using FiveThirtyEight comparison.


CARMELO NBA Player Projections

"FiveThirtyEight’s CARMELO* identifies similar players throughout NBA history and uses them to develop a probabilistic forecast of what a current NBA player’s future might look like.

After he (or whoever) put in Kyrie's numbers, here's what the projections and comparisons look like.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/kyrie-irving/

[stilldropin20]

lillard is holding the blazer back. CJ mccollum is th ebst player on that team and should play PG in the steph role.

Blazers should trade Lillard and Harkless for Avery Bradley, leuer, and Harris.

Portland:

CJ
Avery
tobias
leuer
Jokic

3 pt shooting juggernaut that can defend and rebound. poor man's GSW right there. then get in the PG13 sweepstakes next year.

[Ambrose]

Im confused, Lillard hasnt made the playoffs every year. His first year Portland missed the playoffs and they went 33-49. I mean Portland didnt even finish OVER 500 this year at 41-41. He also has a horrible record in the playoffs. Kyrie has more playoff victories this past year than Dame has in his entire career. All Kyrie would have to do is tweet a pic of his championship ring and its over.

Cleveland would still be a lotto team, and under 500 in the East if LeBron didn't come back and Kyrie was at the helm. LeBron is the main reason Kyrie is known to be who he is, and could get a playoff win, let alone make the playoffs.

Sent from my LG-H901 using RealGM mobile app

How do we know this? Kyrie and Cleveland had a better record his first 3 years in the league than John WAll and the Wizards. Why arent the Wizards still under 500? CP3 at 21 playing alongside David West and Tyson Chandler in their primes didnt make the playoffs. How did Dallas look the first 2.5 years with Jason Kidd? IT had a worse record his first 3 years than Kyrie and IT played with Cousins every year. Kyle Lowry wasnt a legit part of a playoff team till he was 27. Steph Curry and GS didnt make the playoffs his first 3 years, Curry didnt play his first playoff game till he was 26 (Kyrie just turned 25). Heck if you go over to the Crabbe to Nets thread, there are many people over there saying Brooklyn has a shot to make the playoffs with DLO and Lin as their starting backcourt yet when Kyrie's name comes up, the best he can be is a leader on a lotto team, even in the East.

For some reason when it comes to Kyrie, since he wasnt a winner by the age of 21 with Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson taking the 2nd and 3rd most shots on his team. You officially can never win with Kyrie as your main guy. Yet tons of these other stud guards didnt win in their first 3 years (with better talent) and we just forget about those early struggles.

First three seasons

Cavs w/Kyrie Irving 64-117 (.354)
Cavs w/o Kyrie Irving 14-35 (.286)

Wizards w/John Wall: 63-119 (.346)
Wizards w/o John Wall: 9-39 (.188)

One appears to have lifted their team more.

[YaBoyKD]

lillard is holding the blazer back. CJ mccollum is th ebst player on that team and should play PG in the steph role.

Blazers should trade Lillard and Harkless for Avery Bradley, leuer, and Harris.

Portland:

CJ
Avery
tobias
leuer
Jokic

3 pt shooting juggernaut that can defend and rebound. poor man's GSW right there. then get in the PG13 sweepstakes next year.

Stick to realgm please for the Blazers sake

[stilldropin20]

lillard is holding the blazer back. CJ mccollum is th ebst player on that team and should play PG in the steph role.

Blazers should trade Lillard and Harkless for Avery Bradley, leuer, and Harris.

Portland:

CJ
Avery
tobias
leuer
Jokic

3 pt shooting juggernaut that can defend and rebound. poor man's GSW right there. then get in the PG13 sweepstakes next year.

Stick to realgm please for the Blazers sake

detroit should throw in next year's #1 pick unprotected. do it then? if not you are just a lillard fan. no harm in that but you should disclose it.

[TrillyandTruly]

Tom Haberstroh is a clown.

Watch on YouTube

[keynote]

How do we know this? Kyrie and Cleveland had a better record his first 3 years in the league than John WAll and the Wizards. Why arent the Wizards still under 500? CP3 at 21 playing alongside David West and Tyson Chandler in their primes didnt make the playoffs. How did Dallas look the first 2.5 years with Jason Kidd? IT had a worse record his first 3 years than Kyrie and IT played with Cousins every year. Kyle Lowry wasnt a legit part of a playoff team till he was 27. Steph Curry and GS didnt make the playoffs his first 3 years, Curry didnt play his first playoff game till he was 26 (Kyrie just turned 25). Heck if you go over to the Crabbe to Nets thread, there are many people over there saying Brooklyn has a shot to make the playoffs with DLO and Lin as their starting backcourt yet when Kyrie's name comes up, the best he can be is a leader on a lotto team, even in the East.

For some reason when it comes to Kyrie, since he wasnt a winner by the age of 21 with Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson taking the 2nd and 3rd most shots on his team. You officially can never win with Kyrie as your main guy. Yet tons of these other stud guards didnt win in their first 3 years (with better talent) and we just forget about those early struggles.

The knock on pre-LeBron Kyrie wasn't just about his lack of wins, it was about his attitude and lack of leadership. Rewind back to 2014. It was *not* a guarantee that he would accept the Cavs' extension. Kyrie and Dion were beefing. Kyrie's camp was rumored to want out of Cleveland. Etc. Etc.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/4/7/5591220/kyrie-irving-dion-waiters-josh-gordon-cavaliers

It's hard to know just how bad things are or were between Irving and Waiters, but there's been constant negativity surrounding them and the team all season. Until Irving signs an extension in Cleveland, people are going to both report on and speculate about his future.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2095520-cleveland-cavaliers-must-take-lesson-from-john-wall-give-kyrie-irving-max-deal

While it's not fair to hold Irving accountable for Cleveland's failures to compete in a weak Eastern Conference, he's certainly not innocent, either. Irving's defensive efforts have been consistently lackluster, and Cleveland's locker room issues and shuttling of coaches don't speak all that well to his leadership.

https://www.fearthesword.com/2014/2/2/5370192/nba-rumors-luol-deng-and-others-express-frustration-with-cleveland

- Most problems center around Kyrie and Dion Waiters, and both have attitudes that rub the team the wrong way.

- One teammate said that Irving "acts like he doesn't care"

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1924068-why-toxic-kyrie-irving-dion-waiters-pairing-is-doomed-to-fail-for-cleveland-cavs

Waiters and Irving are not close. Waiters believes the Cavaliers have a double standard when it comes to Irving, sources said. Waiters feels that while Irving is allowed to get away with loafing defensively, making turnovers and taking bad shots, he is taken out of games for such things.

Look in the comment section of this Cleveland.com article:

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/04/kyrie_irving_on_contract_exten.html

Cavs fans were tired of him, and thought of him as a malcontent. He wasn't the bright spot on an under-talented, rebuilding team, he was a moody star who was part of the drama.

And, let's not forget: Kyrie enjoyed a ridiculously good honeymoon period, shine-wise. He received national ad campaigns (when's the last time a rookie got a major soda deal?), All-Star appearances (he was named a starter before LeBron arrived), a reserved spot on Coach K's Olympic team (as I've said before, he was doing Jeep ads for Team USA before tryouts began), etc. And yet, despite all of that, Cavs bloggers were openly assessing his trade value. If his early struggles had been drama-free, I'd be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt that he would've eventually grown into a leadership role on perennial playoff team. But I can't ignore the drama.

[Optms]

Dame is what Kyrie should hope to aim for. A top tier scorer on a playoff team in a respectable conference. Lillard has all the right to feel a certain way to the comparisons. He's the superior player.

Lillard = Kyrie Irving's ceiling

[OkcSinceSGA]

Honestly I don't blame him. Kyrie is even more one dimensional than Dame. On offense, where they both thrive Dame is also quite a bit better. Basically Kyrie is a poor man's Damien Lillard.

How is Kyrie more one dimensional than Lillard? They average the same amount of assists even though Lillard is the primary facilitator and Kyrie is the secondary on his team. Kyrie has a better FG%, 3pt%, FT%, eFG%, better FG% from every distance on the court. What dimension is Lillard bringing that Kyrie isnt? Both take 26% of their shots at the rim so they both drive the same amount so its not like Lillard is attacking the defense more.

Im not trying to down play Lillard at all, I think the dude is a stud. I just dont see what element he brings that Kyrie doesnt that makes Kyrie more one dimensional.

So it's not that they aren't strong or weak in similar areas, I should clarify. They are both offensive, explosive scoring guards who aren't particularly good at playmaking and poor at defense. Offensively in terms of efficiency, rather than looking at each individually, it's easier to just use TS% which combines them all, yet weighs them differently. Damien Lillard has a better TS% by a small margin because he's WAY better at getting to the FT line, which is really important. He literally gets double the FT attempts that Kyrie does. Passing/playmaking wise they are pretty similar, Kyrie produces a bit more assists with far superior talent around him, but skill wise they are in the same tier passing.

Defense both are mediocre at best, Lillard less so than Kyrie. Here's the thing though. Kyrie has inferior metrics across the board that measure overall impact and or wins.

WS/48: Lillard- .185, Irving- .170
RPM: Lillard- 3.14, nearly 11 wins added. Kyrie doesn't even qualify for top 40, therefor isn't on list.
VORP: Lillard- 4.3, Irving- 2.9

So I'll take the guy who has a bigger impact on winning more basketball games, is slightly less horrid on defense, gets to the line twice as much, is less injury prone, and has proven he can carry a team as the undisputed go to guy when defenses are actually gunning for him. Lebron takes so much pressure off Kyrie that he has nowhere near the load or defensive focus Lillard does.

[OkcSinceSGA]

The one edge Kyrie gets from me is in the playoffs he's been flat out dominant. Lillard isn't to be taken lightly, but probably in part due to the western conference, he hasn't been as consistently dominant in the playoffs. Kyrie is basically all star level in the regular season, then goes top 5 player, superstar level a lot of the time in the playoffs.

[cucad8]

lillard is holding the blazer back. CJ mccollum is th ebst player on that team and should play PG in the steph role.

Blazers should trade Lillard and Harkless for Avery Bradley, leuer, and Harris.

Portland:

CJ
Avery
tobias
leuer
Jokic

3 pt shooting juggernaut that can defend and rebound. poor man's GSW right there. then get in the PG13 sweepstakes next year.

Stick to realgm please for the Blazers sake

detroit should throw in next year's #1 pick unprotected. do it then? if not you are just a lillard fan. no harm in that but you should disclose it.

That's atrocious, just stop.