Harden is the best player in the NBA

[iggymcfrack]

He’s definitely playing the best this regular season. But considering how many different regular seasons we’d have someone like Curry or Durant playing better during the regular season only for LeBron to be clearly the best player in the playoffs, and considering that LeBron’s also putting up a historic season that’s incredibly, incredibly close to Harden’s just this regular season, I think we have to stick with the King at #1 until proven otherwise.

The people saying that Curry or Durant are better than Harden though are dead wrong IMO. Durant never impacts the game quite as much as his numbers would suggest since he doesn’t really playmake to get teammates open and for all the talk of Harden’s numbers falling off in the playoffs, Curry’s have really fallen off a similar amount with him just getting let off the hook for being on amazing teams that won 2/3 rings over that span.

[Tritodian]

Did you watch that series? Nobody else on the Rockets could do anything. Harden had amazing moments but he couldn't single handedly beat that Warriors team. They weren't going to allow one player to beat them. Even LeBron couldn't get over 40% shooting when it was just him versus that defense.

And yes, the offensive load is why he averaged that many turnovers. Nobody else on the team could create for others. Just go look at his turnovers this year compared to last year when CP3 plays. He's averaging 2 less a game.

There is some merit to this argument. The best teammate Harden has ever had before CP3 was declining Dwight Howard, which didn't help at all with the spacing and frequently messed up Houston's offensive rhythm by being exploited with Hack-A strategy.

It doesn't 100% excuse Harden, but man compared to other superstars Harden's supporting cast has been consistently subpar. And when you're the only driving engine of the team's entire offense, it gets that much easier to stop you.

Durant and Westbrook?

I'm talking about when Harden was the no.1 option on his team.

And what people forget is, while Harden had a poor Finals performance in OKC, Harden also had a massive WCF performance against the Spurs, to the point where Coach Popovich even admitted that they lost that series because of Harden. Go look it up.

[gmoney411]

Did that include the time where he played vs superstar players like Draymond and Klay when Curry was out to completely **** the bed? Or was the offensive load the reason why he averaged 8 turnovers per game in the last 3 games of the last 3 years he got eliminated by another team?

Did you watch that series? Nobody else on the Rockets could do anything. Harden had amazing moments but he couldn't single handedly beat that Warriors team. They weren't going to allow one player to beat them. Even LeBron couldn't get over 40% shooting when it was just him versus that defense.

And yes, the offensive load is why he averaged that many turnovers. Nobody else on the team could create for others. Just go look at his turnovers this year compared to last year when CP3 plays. He's averaging 2 less a game.

He's averaging 1.3TOs less per game, not 2. And it's at 4.4 which is still an incredibly awful amount. Lebron played vs that team and Curry. Curry was either injured or missing through most of that series, I can't believe you're giving excuses to him having too much of a burned going vs Klay and Draymond. And yes I did watch the series. It was pathetic watching a superstar being unable to do anything vs a top that lost its engine due to injury.

Let's do some math. Harden has played 11 games with CP3. He has 36 turnovers in those games. 36 divided by 11 is 3.27. Harden averaged 5.7 turnovers a game last year. 5.7 minus 3.3 (rounding up) is 2.4.

So now the Warriors defense is based on Curry? With him or not the Warriors are an elite defensive team. You aren't beating them with one player.

[Impuniti]

Did you watch that series? Nobody else on the Rockets could do anything. Harden had amazing moments but he couldn't single handedly beat that Warriors team. They weren't going to allow one player to beat them. Even LeBron couldn't get over 40% shooting when it was just him versus that defense.

And yes, the offensive load is why he averaged that many turnovers. Nobody else on the team could create for others. Just go look at his turnovers this year compared to last year when CP3 plays. He's averaging 2 less a game.

He's averaging 1.3TOs less per game, not 2. And it's at 4.4 which is still an incredibly awful amount. Lebron played vs that team and Curry. Curry was either injured or missing through most of that series, I can't believe you're giving excuses to him having too much of a burned going vs Klay and Draymond. And yes I did watch the series. It was pathetic watching a superstar being unable to do anything vs a top that lost its engine due to injury.

Let's do some math. Harden has played 11 games with CP3. He has 36 turnovers in those games. 36 divided by 11 is 3.27. Harden averaged 5.7 turnovers a game last year. 5.7 minus 3.3 (rounding up) is 2.4.

So now the Warriors defense is based on Curry? With him or not the Warriors are an elite defensive team. You aren't beating them with one player.

Jesus, I did not know people were counting his TOs to that degree, that's a fair point. And that excuse is just complete BS. The Warrior team sans Curry (and now KD) should be taken down by a team led by a superstar. And yes it is embarrassing if you can't do it. The Blazers were going to take the Warriors to at least 6 that year before he came back to salvage the series. The Blazers. His performance was pathetic and everyone at the time was rightfully ragging on him here and.. well everywhere really , except for Rockets fans like yourselves.

[CowboyBebop]

Did curry retire or something?

[Lauri_Legend]

Feel like this thread title is missing a question mark at the end

[Ballings7]

Harden may be the best offensive player in the league (LeBron still is to me and many others, then Durant), but there is another side of the floor he doesn't come close to exceling or focusing on with any real adequacy and consistency.

Aside from that, he doesn't get it done against solid defensive teams in the playoffs, and when it really counts. Year after year for years since 2012. He gets taken out of his rhythm, turns the ball over, and doesn't adapt that well. Becomes passive. Spurs in 2012 being an exception, but he matched up well against them (inexperienced and some smaller wings, and a relativley flawed enough defensive front-court; Splitter was not what he would become and didn't play enough).

I'd like to see him late in the game or for a whole quarter (not over a course of a series or game), contain an offensive star on the other team a few times. Take the challenge like other greats have done, when usually the better defensive wings on the team can't be or aren't in the game at that time. Prove himself and his worth defensively.

Harden will be a special offensive player, but is not cementing himself as a legend or an all-time "great" yet.

Best player in the NBA? No, he has some work to do.

[Tritodian]

Did that include the time where he played vs superstar players like Draymond and Klay when Curry was out to completely **** the bed? Or was the offensive load the reason why he averaged 8 turnovers per game in the last 3 games of the last 3 years he got eliminated by another team?

Did you watch that series? Nobody else on the Rockets could do anything. Harden had amazing moments but he couldn't single handedly beat that Warriors team. They weren't going to allow one player to beat them. Even LeBron couldn't get over 40% shooting when it was just him versus that defense.

And yes, the offensive load is why he averaged that many turnovers. Nobody else on the team could create for others. Just go look at his turnovers this year compared to last year when CP3 plays. He's averaging 2 less a game.

He's averaging 1.3TOs less per game, not 2. And it's at 4.4 which is still an incredibly awful amount. Lebron played vs that team and Curry. Curry was either injured or missing through most of that series, I can't believe you're giving excuses to him having too much of a burned going vs Klay and Draymond. And yes I did watch the series. It was pathetic watching a superstar being unable to do anything vs a top that lost its engine due to injury.

1. Harden's AST/TOV ratio is better than LeBron's, and Harden's usage rate and time of possession of the ball is also higher than LeBron's.

2. Are you seriously bringing up 15-16 playoffs, which would probably be the best evidence of Harden having no offensive help?



The second best player on that Rockets team was Dwight Howard who averaged 13 points in the playoffs while playing poor defense, and third was Micheal freakin' Beasly. Not to mention that Ariza, Beverly, Terry, Brewer all shot horrendously in that series.

It was basically Harden vs GSW, and I don't care that Curry was out, because the Warriors were the best defensive team that season, and the Rockets were doomed from the get-go.

[gmoney411]

He's averaging 1.3TOs less per game, not 2. And it's at 4.4 which is still an incredibly awful amount. Lebron played vs that team and Curry. Curry was either injured or missing through most of that series, I can't believe you're giving excuses to him having too much of a burned going vs Klay and Draymond. And yes I did watch the series. It was pathetic watching a superstar being unable to do anything vs a top that lost its engine due to injury.

Let's do some math. Harden has played 11 games with CP3. He has 36 turnovers in those games. 36 divided by 11 is 3.27. Harden averaged 5.7 turnovers a game last year. 5.7 minus 3.3 (rounding up) is 2.4.

So now the Warriors defense is based on Curry? With him or not the Warriors are an elite defensive team. You aren't beating them with one player.

Jesus, I did not know people were counting his TOs to that degree, that's a fair point. And that excuse is just complete BS. The Warrior team sans Curry (and now KD) should be taken down by a team led by a superstar. And yes it is embarrassing if you can't do it. The Blazers were going to take the Warriors to at least 6 that year before he came back to salvage the series. The Blazers. His performance was pathetic and everyone at the time was rightfully ragging on him here and.. well everywhere really , except for Rockets fans like yourselves.

To the degree that I said? I said games with CP3.

If you think the Warriors aren't an elite defensive team without Curry there is no point in continuing this discussion. The Rockets had an iso system that completely relied on Harden back then. You can't beat elite defenses with that. The Blazers had Dame and CJ which is much harder to defend and they we're the better team that year.

I don't remember people calling Harden's 15-16 performance pathetic. He wasn't terrible in that series. It was just obvious the Warriors were by far the better team with or without Curry that year.

[Impuniti]

There is absolutely no reason you should get angry for people rating those 4 above him. The level of homerism to even be offended is absurd. He's been a total embarrassment the last few years in the playoffs, especially in elimination games he's lost. Kawhi is debatable since he has a lot to prove himself, but there's nothing surprising with people putting him above Harden since it's quite debatable.

at least get your facts straight, buddy

pwnage

Must be nice when people get excited about pwning people online.

He's been a total embarrassment the last few years in the playoffs, especially in elimination games he's lost.

Lets look at Harden's elimination games the Rockets got taken down since he became a superstar.
17' vs Spurs - 2-11 18%, 10-3-7-1-1, 6TOs, -28
16' vs GSW - 12-23 52%, 35-6-6-2, 7TOs, -27
15' vs GSW - 2-11 18%, 14-6-5-3, 12TOs, -4

2 of those 3 games might be the worst games by a superstar in elimination in the last few years. Curry has his 16' finals, with Lebron the 11' finals, but they have far, far more plus than minus. Not to mention his team making a comeback before playing the Warriors with him on the bench earlier. You guys are getting defensive for no reason. He's been a terrible choker these last few years. He's 28 and primed to prove doubters wrong, but it's comical to think he hasn't been a failure in the playoffs these last few years when he's elevated his quality so much post OKC. I said last year when everyone was creaming over the trip dubs that Harden is a clearly superior player to WB and it's not close, and I called the Rockets in 5 happening. He has a lot to prove in the playoffs.

And to the woe is me and the lack of help, nobody but Rockets fans care that Harden didn't have enough help when he played like garbage. This time around he has an awesome team and is looking the most likely to take down the 4-headed GSW monster. But it's up to him to prove it. So far in his career, he's been underwhelming in the PS.

[Impuniti]

Let's do some math. Harden has played 11 games with CP3. He has 36 turnovers in those games. 36 divided by 11 is 3.27. Harden averaged 5.7 turnovers a game last year. 5.7 minus 3.3 (rounding up) is 2.4.

So now the Warriors defense is based on Curry? With him or not the Warriors are an elite defensive team. You aren't beating them with one player.

Jesus, I did not know people were counting his TOs to that degree, that's a fair point. And that excuse is just complete BS. The Warrior team sans Curry (and now KD) should be taken down by a team led by a superstar. And yes it is embarrassing if you can't do it. The Blazers were going to take the Warriors to at least 6 that year before he came back to salvage the series. The Blazers. His performance was pathetic and everyone at the time was rightfully ragging on him here and.. well everywhere really , except for Rockets fans like yourselves.

To the degree that I said? I said games with CP3.

If you think the Warriors aren't an elite defensive team without Curry there is no point in continuing this discussion. The Rockets had an iso system that completely relied on Harden back then. You can't beat elite defenses with that. The Blazers had Dame and CJ which is much harder to defend and they we're the better team that year.

I don't remember people calling Harden's 15-16 performance pathetic. He wasn't terrible in that series. It was just obvious the Warriors were by far the better team with or without Curry that year.

Harden was a laughing stock that year, and it only continued after they were bounced in 5 by a crocked Curry that didn't even show up for 1/2 a series. Nowhere did I imply that the Ws need Curry to be an elite team, just that I have standards of superstar to beat a Curry-less Warrior team in 2016. Rockets fans can come up with the poor squad excuse but to me it is embarrassing for a player of Harden's quality to get bounced in 5 by them. Your different standards to me sound like really bad excuses.

[Tritodian]

at least get your facts straight, buddy

pwnage

Must be nice when people get excited about pwning people online.

He's been a total embarrassment the last few years in the playoffs, especially in elimination games he's lost.

Lets look at Harden's elimination games the Rockets got taken down since he became a superstar.
17' vs Spurs - 2-11 18%, 10-3-7-1-1, 6TOs, -28
16' vs GSW - 12-23 52%, 35-6-6-2, 7TOs, -27
15' vs GSW - 2-11 18%, 14-6-5-3, 12TOs, -4

2 of those 3 games might be the worst games by a superstar in elimination in the last few years. Curry has his 16' finals, with Lebron the 11' finals, but they have far, far more plus than minus. Not to mention his team making a comeback before playing the Warriors with him on the bench earlier. You guys are getting defensive for no reason. He's been a terrible choker these last few years. He's 28 and primed to prove doubters wrong, but it's comical to think he hasn't been a failure in the playoffs these last few years when he's elevated his quality so much post OKC. I said last year when everyone was creaming over the trip dubs that Harden is a clearly superior player to WB and it's not close, and I called the Rockets in 5 happening. He has a lot to prove in the playoffs.

And to the woe is me and the lack of help, nobody but Rockets fans care that Harden didn't have enough help when he played like garbage. This time around he has an awesome team and is looking the most likely to take down the 4-headed GSW monster. But it's up to him to prove it. So far in his career, he's been underwhelming in the PS.

Do you even understand the meaning of elimination games? You seem to think that it's only when you lose it's called an elimination

15 vs GSW game 4 (elimination game) - 13-22 59.1%, 45-9-5, W

16 vs GSW game 5 (elimination game) - 12-23 52.2%, 35-6-6, L

Just because you win, it does NOT become an elimination game. You do know that, right?

You've already been exposed with your false narrative, better go find something else to harp on

[Impuniti]

pwnage

Must be nice when people get excited about pwning people online.

He's been a total embarrassment the last few years in the playoffs, especially in elimination games he's lost.

Lets look at Harden's elimination games the Rockets got taken down since he became a superstar.
17' vs Spurs - 2-11 18%, 10-3-7-1-1, 6TOs, -28
16' vs GSW - 12-23 52%, 35-6-6-2, 7TOs, -27
15' vs GSW - 2-11 18%, 14-6-5-3, 12TOs, -4

2 of those 3 games might be the worst games by a superstar in elimination in the last few years. Curry has his 16' finals, with Lebron the 11' finals, but they have far, far more plus than minus. Not to mention his team making a comeback before playing the Warriors with him on the bench earlier. You guys are getting defensive for no reason. He's been a terrible choker these last few years. He's 28 and primed to prove doubters wrong, but it's comical to think he hasn't been a failure in the playoffs these last few years when he's elevated his quality so much post OKC. I said last year when everyone was creaming over the trip dubs that Harden is a clearly superior player to WB and it's not close, and I called the Rockets in 5 happening. He has a lot to prove in the playoffs.

And to the woe is me and the lack of help, nobody but Rockets fans care that Harden didn't have enough help when he played like garbage. This time around he has an awesome team and is looking the most likely to take down the 4-headed GSW monster. But it's up to him to prove it. So far in his career, he's been underwhelming in the PS.

Do you even understand the meaning of elimination games? You seemed to think that it's only when you lose it's called an elimination

15 vs GSW game 4 (elimination game) - 13-22 59.1%, 45-9-5

16 vs GSW game 4 (elimination game) - 12-23 52.2%, 35-6-6


Just because you win, it does NOT become an elimination game. You do know that, right?

You've already been exposed with your false narrative, better go find something else to harp on

Welp. When you're right, you're right. And when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. No idea how this went over my head. I'm not going to bring something else up since for this particular point, it's wrong on my end.

[gmoney411]

Jesus, I did not know people were counting his TOs to that degree, that's a fair point. And that excuse is just complete BS. The Warrior team sans Curry (and now KD) should be taken down by a team led by a superstar. And yes it is embarrassing if you can't do it. The Blazers were going to take the Warriors to at least 6 that year before he came back to salvage the series. The Blazers. His performance was pathetic and everyone at the time was rightfully ragging on him here and.. well everywhere really , except for Rockets fans like yourselves.

To the degree that I said? I said games with CP3.

If you think the Warriors aren't an elite defensive team without Curry there is no point in continuing this discussion. The Rockets had an iso system that completely relied on Harden back then. You can't beat elite defenses with that. The Blazers had Dame and CJ which is much harder to defend and they we're the better team that year.

I don't remember people calling Harden's 15-16 performance pathetic. He wasn't terrible in that series. It was just obvious the Warriors were by far the better team with or without Curry that year.

Harden was a laughing stock that year, and it only continued after they were bounced in 5 by a crocked Curry that didn't even show up for 1/2 a series. Nowhere did I imply that the Ws need Curry to be an elite team, just that I have standards of superstar to beat a Curry-less Warrior team in 2016. Rockets fans can come up with the poor squad excuse but to me it is embarrassing for a player of Harden's quality to get bounced in 5 by them. Your different standards to me sound like really bad excuses.

The Warriors won 32 more games than the Rockets that year. This wasn't a small gap in teams. Nobody in their right mind should have thought the Rockets would challenge the Warriors with or without Curry.

The Rockets lost 3 of 4 against the Curry less Warriors and in two of those games Harden played great. And the game where he was the greatest it didn't even make a difference. Another Rockets player only scored 15 or more points in the series once. In 5 games. Just think about that.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Not by a long shot. Lebron, KD, Curry, Kawhi.

You forgot Westbrook, Paul George, Klay Thompson, Anthony Davis & Giannis.

he's way better than Klay and PG. come on now.

[Gil]

2. Are you seriously bringing up 15-16 playoffs, which would probably be the best evidence of Harden having no offensive help?

The amount of trash Harden has played with in his Rockets career until this season is crazy.

I forgot how bad those rosters were. Kinda crazy how people use that famous Clippers Game 6 (where he was playing with a flu) as a stick to beat him with because he finally got help in a Playoff game.

[PCProductions]

Honestly, he kinda has been this season. He's just been unfairly good.

[Arman_tanzarian]

Top 4 is really good.

Obv I am taking LeBron 1. After that, you can make a case for either Curry or Harden. I got KD 4th but there is very little separating these guys.

[WarriorGM]

To the degree that I said? I said games with CP3.

If you think the Warriors aren't an elite defensive team without Curry there is no point in continuing this discussion. The Rockets had an iso system that completely relied on Harden back then. You can't beat elite defenses with that. The Blazers had Dame and CJ which is much harder to defend and they we're the better team that year.

I don't remember people calling Harden's 15-16 performance pathetic. He wasn't terrible in that series. It was just obvious the Warriors were by far the better team with or without Curry that year.

Harden was a laughing stock that year, and it only continued after they were bounced in 5 by a crocked Curry that didn't even show up for 1/2 a series. Nowhere did I imply that the Ws need Curry to be an elite team, just that I have standards of superstar to beat a Curry-less Warrior team in 2016. Rockets fans can come up with the poor squad excuse but to me it is embarrassing for a player of Harden's quality to get bounced in 5 by them. Your different standards to me sound like really bad excuses.

The Warriors won 32 more games than the Rockets that year. This wasn't a small gap in teams. Nobody in their right mind should have thought the Rockets would challenge the Warriors with or without Curry.

The Rockets lost 3 of 4 against the Curry less Warriors and in two of those games Harden played great. And the game where he was the greatest it didn't even make a difference.

I accept the argument that Harden has had an inferior supporting cast for the most part and that is why he deserves people to keep an open mind and give him an opportunity to make his case now that he has a good team and system backing him.

But there is nothing in anything that has gone before that indicates Harden deserves more than that or consideration as a superior player in those earlier years. Unlike Harden, LeBron keeps going to the finals. Durant was the superior player when he and Harden were teammates. Curry may have had a better team when he has beaten Harden but he led that team to a championship and 73-9. If we were to mentally switch Harden for Curry on the Warriors does anyone seriously think Harden could have done a better job? Even with the team he has now I don't think 70 wins is achievable for Harden. Kawhi eliminated Harden last year. Harden can rack up obscene numbers but the others do so more efficiently and the only one who is not proven as prolific a scorer—Kawhi—is a much, much better defensive player.

[gmoney411]

Harden was a laughing stock that year, and it only continued after they were bounced in 5 by a crocked Curry that didn't even show up for 1/2 a series. Nowhere did I imply that the Ws need Curry to be an elite team, just that I have standards of superstar to beat a Curry-less Warrior team in 2016. Rockets fans can come up with the poor squad excuse but to me it is embarrassing for a player of Harden's quality to get bounced in 5 by them. Your different standards to me sound like really bad excuses.

The Warriors won 32 more games than the Rockets that year. This wasn't a small gap in teams. Nobody in their right mind should have thought the Rockets would challenge the Warriors with or without Curry.

The Rockets lost 3 of 4 against the Curry less Warriors and in two of those games Harden played great. And the game where he was the greatest it didn't even make a difference.

I accept the argument that Harden has had an inferior supporting cast for the most part and that is why he deserves people to keep an open mind and give him an opportunity to make his case now that he has a good team and system backing him.

But there is nothing in anything that has gone before that indicates Harden deserves more. Unlike Harden, LeBron keeps going to the finals. Durant was the superior player when he and Harden were teammates. Curry may have had a better team when he has beaten Harden but he led that team to a championship and 73-9. If we were to mentally switch Harden for Curry on the Warriors does anyone seriously think Harden could have done a better job? Even with the team he has now I don't think 70 wins is achievable for Harden. Kawhi eliminated Harden last year. Harden can rack up obscene numbers but the others do so more efficiently and the only one who is not proven as prolific a scorer—Kawhi—is a much, much better defensive player.

I don't think Harden is the best player in the league. That title still belongs to LeBron. I think I'd also lean to Durant and Curry being better but it's close this year. And I think Harden would have a similar level of success if you put him on the Warriors the last few years. I'm a huge Kawhi fan but I don't think he's on the level of Durant, Curry, or Harden. I have him one step below those guys but not very far behind.