RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#19 2018-19

[SlowPaced]

Only Norman Powell’s complete collapse prevented DeRozan from being 3rd team All Raptors Guard - he was definitely worse than Lowry, Wright, and VanVleet - and he was voted 2nd team All NBA.

[
This is slight hyperbole. I see that Lucas Noguiera played 24 minutes and was 1/1/1 with 3 turnovers and 6 fouls. The Raptors had a NetRtg of -48.9 with him on the floor. So he’d be the worst. Derozan’s legitimately been sub-starter caliber over his 5 postseasons though. I still can’t believe the Spurs gave up Kawhi for the chance to pay him $90 million.

Imagine being so arrogant that you think NBA players, coaches and analysts who rank DeRozan highly are out of their minds and you are the only one who gets that he's complete garbage and should actually sit on the bench.

I'm actually quite low on DeRozan myself but good god.

It's not arrogance - it's simply understanding which metrics better reflect a player's actual impact and evaluating them through then lens rather than using the tools of the past that have largely been mathematically proven not to be accurate reflections of value. I and people like me are far from the only ones holding that opinion - lots of analysts feel the same.

A quick baseball example - whether you follow the sport or not, you'll get it - for decades it was conventional wisdom that a team should bat a fast guy as their lead off hitter - whether that guy was much good at getting on base or not was often irrelevant - and if he did get on, you'd often use your #2 hitter to bunt him to 2nd base. Teams did it for decades - a huge majority of players, coaches, analysts, and fans would have sworn to you up and down that this was good baseball strategy for years and years, and many, many baseball games opened in exactly this fashion for years and years. Eventually the analytics guys proved mathematically that this was not only not good strategy, it was terrible strategy- pretty close to straight up baseball idiocy. It took a while - but nobody does this anymore ever at the major league level - because it's absolutely wrong. It was accepted conventional wisdom for a long time, but it was straight up incorrect.

This history of sports is littered with countless examples of the ways even professionals think about the game being later shown to be obviously wrong. This analysis of DeRozan is really no different. The tools by which we used to evaluate players like him in the past suggested that what he does is "good" for your team and that opinion is shared by many fans, coaches, analysts etc. But we now have a ton of analytical evidence that the conventional wisdom is wrong - his teams are always, always better without him, often way better - his impact on your overall defense is straight up catastrophic, he's generally an overall detriment. How big a detriment remains open for debate - but things like him making All-NBA teams or making the US Olympic team will pretty obviously be viewed as laughable in the pretty near future - even though it was highly respected people inside the game conveying him that status in the present.

Thanks for confirming my point.

[clyde21]

Just for fun, I averaged players RPM the last 3 years to build a list. Didn’t include last year for Kawhi, but other than that just did straight averages on the years not accounting for games played. Here’s the list:

1. Chris Paul 7.83
2. LeBron James 7.72
3. Kawhi Leonard 7.58
4. Stephen Curry 7.52
5. Draymond Green 6.72
6. Russell Westbrook 6.43
7. Nikola Jokic 6.24
8. Kyle Lowry 5.96
9. Jimmy Butler 5.67
10. James Harden 5.30
11. Kevin Durant 5.28

Interesting how the top guys are almost without exception all great playmakers. Kawhi Leonard’s the only top guy that doesn’t fit that mold and all he does is combine some of the best scoring ability in the entire league with some of he best defense.

To me that shows more of a systemic bias in RPM rather than the opposite.

Hey! Someone who understands statistics unlike 95% of the posters who live by them!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I mean, it's not a secret that RPM likes playmakers. It's why guys like DeRozan and Klay never do well in this stat, and for good reason. They can't create for anyone else.

The fact that Kawhi does really well in this stat is a testament to 1) how well he can create for himself and 2) how good his defense is.

[slothrop8]

Thanks for confirming my point.

Thank you for confirming my point.

[Duke4life831]

Only Norman Powell’s complete collapse prevented DeRozan from being 3rd team All Raptors Guard - he was definitely worse than Lowry, Wright, and VanVleet - and he was voted 2nd team All NBA.

[
This is slight hyperbole. I see that Lucas Noguiera played 24 minutes and was 1/1/1 with 3 turnovers and 6 fouls. The Raptors had a NetRtg of -48.9 with him on the floor. So he’d be the worst. Derozan’s legitimately been sub-starter caliber over his 5 postseasons though. I still can’t believe the Spurs gave up Kawhi for the chance to pay him $90 million.

Imagine being so arrogant that you think NBA players, coaches and analysts who rank DeRozan highly are out of their minds and you are the only one who gets that he's complete garbage and should actually sit on the bench.

I'm actually quite low on DeRozan myself but good god.

It's not arrogance - it's simply understanding which metrics better reflect a player's actual impact and evaluating them through then lens rather than using the tools of the past that have largely been mathematically proven not to be accurate reflections of value. I and people like me are far from the only ones holding that opinion - lots of analysts feel the same.

A quick baseball example - whether you follow the sport or not, you'll get it - for decades it was conventional wisdom that a team should bat a fast guy as their lead off hitter - whether that guy was much good at getting on base or not was often irrelevant - and if he did get on, you'd often use your #2 hitter to bunt him to 2nd base. Teams did it for decades - a huge majority of players, coaches, analysts, and fans would have sworn to you up and down that this was good baseball strategy for years and years, and many, many baseball games opened in exactly this fashion for years and years. Eventually the analytics guys proved mathematically that this was not only not good strategy, it was terrible strategy- pretty close to straight up baseball idiocy. It took a while - but nobody does this anymore ever at the major league level - because it's absolutely wrong. It was accepted conventional wisdom for a long time, but it was straight up incorrect.

This history of sports is littered with countless examples of the ways even professionals think about the game being later shown to be obviously wrong. This analysis of DeRozan is really no different. The tools by which we used to evaluate players like him in the past suggested that what he does is "good" for your team and that opinion is shared by many fans, coaches, analysts etc. But we now have a ton of analytical evidence that the conventional wisdom is wrong - his teams are always, always better without him, often way better - his impact on your overall defense is straight up catastrophic, he's generally an overall detriment. How big a detriment remains open for debate - but things like him making All-NBA teams or making the US Olympic team will pretty obviously be viewed as laughable in the pretty near future - even though it was highly respected people inside the game conveying him that status in the present.

Arent you kind of proving his point though with this. Youre basically saying you understand this data more so than the guys that vote for these awards and the coaches that play DeRozan heavy minutes (Casey and now soon to be Pop). Dont you think the Raps probably have an analytical team that know all of these numbers and more? If he is such a negative, why did Pop and Buford sign off on trading for him? Again by now I think all teams have an analytic department where you have math geniuses looking through these kind of stats.

[slothrop8]

Arent you kind of proving his point though with this. Youre basically saying you understand this data more so than the guys that vote for these awards and the coaches that play DeRozan heavy minutes (Casey and now soon to be Pop). Dont you think the Raps probably have an analytical team that know all of these numbers and more? If he is such a negative, why did Pop and Buford sign off on trading for him? Again by now I think all teams have an analytic department where you have math geniuses looking through these kind of stats.

Certainly they all have data teams, but sub-optimal decisions are still getting made all the time because the decisions aren't all being informed by what the data should be telling the decision makers. The conventional wisdom is still calcified in place, even though teams should and probably do know better. We're less than 5 years removed from Byron Scott actively discouraging his Lakers teams from taking 3 point shots. Phil Jackson - a basketball legend - was as GM of the Knicks initially actively criticizing teams taking more 3 pointers than he thought they should - although surely the Knicks had an analytics department of some kind at the time telling him different. As a Warriors fan I'm sure you remember the "how's it goink" tweet well.

The advanced data on DeRozan is clear and overwhelming. There would without question have been voices in the Raptors organization trying to persuade the franchise to go another way - and Casey riding DeMar even heavier in the playoffs despite his performance being beyond abysmal very likely ultimately cost him his job. Pop and Buford have very likely made a mistake - a mistake that probably lands the Spurs in the lottery for the first time in over 20 years - because they are going to ignore the preponderance of data and go with conventional wisdom.

Consider the Vegas over/under win total line for the Spurs being set at 43.5 despite them having won 47 games last year and added a 2nd Team All-NBA guard in DeRozan. For most NBA fans that's an easy number to pound the over on - Spurs haven't won that few games in 2 decades - money from serious NBA fans is going to pour in on the Over on that line. So why is the line so low? Because the sharp money - the big, big bets from analytical bettors is going to be on the Under. There is a small group out there that is going to suspect very strongly that the Spurs have made themselves much worse by adding DeRozan, his reputation as an All Star aside - and although there are going to be a lot of little bets on the Over- there's going to be some huge bets on the Under.

[Filthadelphia]

Bump for more votes since its close.

[Patsfan1081]

I've never seen a player get crapped on more(takentwise) after changing jerseys than I've had DeRozan. This was a guy that actually wanted to stay in Toronto too and was upset after being traded, yet he gets so disrespected. The guy was just named second team all NBA and certain fans are saying he doesn't even deserve the start in some cases. It's amazing.

[iggymcfrack]

Imagine being so arrogant that you think NBA players, coaches and analysts who rank DeRozan highly are out of their minds and you are the only one who gets that he's complete garbage and should actually sit on the bench.

I'm actually quite low on DeRozan myself but good god.

It's not arrogance - it's simply understanding which metrics better reflect a player's actual impact and evaluating them through then lens rather than using the tools of the past that have largely been mathematically proven not to be accurate reflections of value. I and people like me are far from the only ones holding that opinion - lots of analysts feel the same.

A quick baseball example - whether you follow the sport or not, you'll get it - for decades it was conventional wisdom that a team should bat a fast guy as their lead off hitter - whether that guy was much good at getting on base or not was often irrelevant - and if he did get on, you'd often use your #2 hitter to bunt him to 2nd base. Teams did it for decades - a huge majority of players, coaches, analysts, and fans would have sworn to you up and down that this was good baseball strategy for years and years, and many, many baseball games opened in exactly this fashion for years and years. Eventually the analytics guys proved mathematically that this was not only not good strategy, it was terrible strategy- pretty close to straight up baseball idiocy. It took a while - but nobody does this anymore ever at the major league level - because it's absolutely wrong. It was accepted conventional wisdom for a long time, but it was straight up incorrect.

This history of sports is littered with countless examples of the ways even professionals think about the game being later shown to be obviously wrong. This analysis of DeRozan is really no different. The tools by which we used to evaluate players like him in the past suggested that what he does is "good" for your team and that opinion is shared by many fans, coaches, analysts etc. But we now have a ton of analytical evidence that the conventional wisdom is wrong - his teams are always, always better without him, often way better - his impact on your overall defense is straight up catastrophic, he's generally an overall detriment. How big a detriment remains open for debate - but things like him making All-NBA teams or making the US Olympic team will pretty obviously be viewed as laughable in the pretty near future - even though it was highly respected people inside the game conveying him that status in the present.

Arent you kind of proving his point though with this. Youre basically saying you understand this data more so than the guys that vote for these awards and the coaches that play DeRozan heavy minutes (Casey and now soon to be Pop). Dont you think the Raps probably have an analytical team that know all of these numbers and more? If he is such a negative, why did Pop and Buford sign off on trading for him? Again by now I think all teams have an analytic department where you have math geniuses looking through these kind of stats.

I don’t think Derozan’s actually so bad that he shouldn’t be getting big minutes (at least until playoff choke mode’s fully engaged), but he’s certainly massively overrated and he’s nowhere near being worth his contract. Pop made a terrible desperation move to try to get the Spurs the 8 seed next year, and it’s really going to hurt the franchise down the line, but apparently he only cares about the short term.

Some of the points slothrop made are excellent. As recently as the 2008 NBA Finals, all-time great Phil Jackson was coaching his team to actively try to give up open corner 3s because he thought that those shots were easier to get rebounds off of and run in transition on (they’re not). A lot of smart high-level basketball minds have made a lot of terrible mistakes that fans can see objectively. 4th down strategy in football is another instance where coaches are consistently irrationally conservative when all sorts of evidence points the other way. I feel like as slothrop states, the Spurs over/under is great evidence for how large financial markets actually feel about Derozan, as the projections are much closer to say someone like Pelton’s model that says Derozan < Kyle Anderson than to someone thinking he’s actually an all-NBA caliber talent.

[mademan]

:noway: I've never seen a player get crapped on more(takentwise) after changing jerseys than I've had DeRozan. This was a guy that actually wanted to stay in Toronto too and was upset after being traded, yet he gets so disrespected. The guy was just named second team all NBA and certain fans are saying he doesn't even deserve the start in some cases. It's amazing.

Youre like 5th C's fans who's said the same thing, and all of you are oblivious to the way the majority feel/felt about Demar. He was very polarizing; a lot liked him and a lot really, really hated him. It's just that those who liked him have moved on and those who always hated him feel vindicated about their hate for him and continue to talk about it.

[Catchall]

I think you guys have this about right. I do think Marc Gasol should be added to the poll soon. I see him as a top 25 or so player, right there with Horford at a minimum.

[Filthadelphia]

:noway: I've never seen a player get crapped on more(takentwise) after changing jerseys than I've had DeRozan. This was a guy that actually wanted to stay in Toronto too and was upset after being traded, yet he gets so disrespected. The guy was just named second team all NBA and certain fans are saying he doesn't even deserve the start in some cases. It's amazing.

Raps fans are one of the wildest fanbases.
Not saying DeMar was some world beater is one thing but they blamed Casey for losing when every non-Raps fan KNEW they had no chance against LeBron or the Warriors.

Yet go back to Dec-January and DeMar was DeKobe and the Raps had an outside chance of beating the Warriors if they were injured...

Now its people saying Lowry is better than Simmons which is laughable, Nurse will be somehow an improvement over Casey, and that they have a chance of beating the Warriors...

[Patsfan1081]

Only Norman Powell’s complete collapse prevented DeRozan from being 3rd team All Raptors Guard - he was definitely worse than Lowry, Wright, and VanVleet - and he was voted 2nd team All NBA.

[
This is slight hyperbole. I see that Lucas Noguiera played 24 minutes and was 1/1/1 with 3 turnovers and 6 fouls. The Raptors had a NetRtg of -48.9 with him on the floor. So he’d be the worst. Derozan’s legitimately been sub-starter caliber over his 5 postseasons though. I still can’t believe the Spurs gave up Kawhi for the chance to pay him $90 million.

Imagine being so arrogant that you think NBA players, coaches and analysts who rank DeRozan highly are out of their minds and you are the only one who gets that he's complete garbage and should actually sit on the bench.

I'm actually quite low on DeRozan myself but good god.

It's not arrogance - it's simply understanding which metrics better reflect a player's actual impact and evaluating them through then lens rather than using the tools of the past that have largely been mathematically proven not to be accurate reflections of value. I and people like me are far from the only ones holding that opinion - lots of analysts feel the same.

A quick baseball example - whether you follow the sport or not, you'll get it - for decades it was conventional wisdom that a team should bat a fast guy as their lead off hitter - whether that guy was much good at getting on base or not was often irrelevant - and if he did get on, you'd often use your #2 hitter to bunt him to 2nd base. Teams did it for decades - a huge majority of players, coaches, analysts, and fans would have sworn to you up and down that this was good baseball strategy for years and years, and many, many baseball games opened in exactly this fashion for years and years. Eventually the analytics guys proved mathematically that this was not only not good strategy, it was terrible strategy- pretty close to straight up baseball idiocy. It took a while - but nobody does this anymore ever at the major league level - because it's absolutely wrong. It was accepted conventional wisdom for a long time, but it was straight up incorrect.

This history of sports is littered with countless examples of the ways even professionals think about the game being later shown to be obviously wrong. This analysis of DeRozan is really no different. The tools by which we used to evaluate players like him in the past suggested that what he does is "good" for your team and that opinion is shared by many fans, coaches, analysts etc. But we now have a ton of analytical evidence that the conventional wisdom is wrong - his teams are always, always better without him, often way better - his impact on your overall defense is straight up catastrophic, he's generally an overall detriment. How big a detriment remains open for debate - but things like him making All-NBA teams or making the US Olympic team will pretty obviously be viewed as laughable in the pretty near future - even though it was highly respected people inside the game conveying him that status in the present.

This is just a terrible analogy, what does speed represent in DD's case? Besides the fact that it isn't true, some of the best leadoff hitters off all time (Boggs, Rose, Brock, ect..) weren't the fastest but the guys who got on base the most. You also put two all stars together for a good amount of time and it's not common for one player to suffer in on/off as when he's off the court the other all star will be on in a different unit, this is especially true when the other all star is the main ball handler. It was the same with Lebron and Irving, Chris Paul's on/off sig drop when playing with Harden.

[Prez]

Derozan was legit good in the regular season but I don't think it's crazy at all to say he was straight up trash in the postseason.

[Asif16]

:noway: I've never seen a player get crapped on more(takentwise) after changing jerseys than I've had DeRozan. This was a guy that actually wanted to stay in Toronto too and was upset after being traded, yet he gets so disrespected. The guy was just named second team all NBA and certain fans are saying he doesn't even deserve the start in some cases. It's amazing.

Raps fans are one of the wildest fanbases.
Not saying DeMar was some world beater is one thing but they blamed Casey for losing when every non-Raps fan KNEW they had no chance against LeBron or the Warriors.

Yet go back to Dec-January and DeMar was DeKobe and the Raps had an outside chance of beating the Warriors if they were injured...

Now its people saying Lowry is better than Simmons which is laughable, Nurse will be somehow an improvement over Casey, and that they have a chance of beating the Warriors...

Damn where do I start with this post.

1. Demar will def have DeKobe like moments throughout the the regular season. See the 52 pt performance against the Bucks last season. He's automatic in getting you 20+ points in every game if he has too. But its flawed stats. And he never shows up when it matters (Playoffs)

2. Lowry is better than Simmons lol. Idk what to tell you. Simmons will undoubtedly be better than Lowry in the future due to age, but Lowry is better right now. His stats the last 5 seasons speak for itself. It's nowhere close to being "Laughable"

3. You think us saying Nurse will be an improvement over Casey is crazy to say? We've all been criticising Casey and wanted him gone ever since the 2014 sweep to the Wizards. Casey has a lot to do with us getting Spanked by the Cavs. Are you telling me you know more about Casey and Nurse than we do?

4. No raptor fan here has claimed we can beat the Warriors. Yes, I've seen some people claim that if the Raptors make it to the finals, they might put up a fight. Just like the Celtics might as well. I've seen many non-raptor fan claim that as well. But we all know no one is beating the warriors.

Honestly, your whole post just reeks of saliness of how Ben Simmons is losing in this poll to Lowry. Now your out making dumb accusations over raps fans

[Asif16]

:noway: I've never seen a player get crapped on more(takentwise) after changing jerseys than I've had DeRozan. This was a guy that actually wanted to stay in Toronto too and was upset after being traded, yet he gets so disrespected. The guy was just named second team all NBA and certain fans are saying he doesn't even deserve the start in some cases. It's amazing.

Youre like 5th C's fans who's said the same thing, and all of you are oblivious to the way the majority feel/felt about Demar. He was very polarizing; a lot liked him and a lot really, really hated him. It's just that those who liked him have moved on and those who always hated him feel vindicated about their hate for him and continue to talk about it.

All C's fans hated on Derozan, even when he was going ham in the Regular season. They were always the first fanbase to call Derozan "Overrated". Now all of a sudden, they all have empathy for Derozan now that he's gone

[iggymcfrack]

Imagine being so arrogant that you think NBA players, coaches and analysts who rank DeRozan highly are out of their minds and you are the only one who gets that he's complete garbage and should actually sit on the bench.

I'm actually quite low on DeRozan myself but good god.

It's not arrogance - it's simply understanding which metrics better reflect a player's actual impact and evaluating them through then lens rather than using the tools of the past that have largely been mathematically proven not to be accurate reflections of value. I and people like me are far from the only ones holding that opinion - lots of analysts feel the same.

A quick baseball example - whether you follow the sport or not, you'll get it - for decades it was conventional wisdom that a team should bat a fast guy as their lead off hitter - whether that guy was much good at getting on base or not was often irrelevant - and if he did get on, you'd often use your #2 hitter to bunt him to 2nd base. Teams did it for decades - a huge majority of players, coaches, analysts, and fans would have sworn to you up and down that this was good baseball strategy for years and years, and many, many baseball games opened in exactly this fashion for years and years. Eventually the analytics guys proved mathematically that this was not only not good strategy, it was terrible strategy- pretty close to straight up baseball idiocy. It took a while - but nobody does this anymore ever at the major league level - because it's absolutely wrong. It was accepted conventional wisdom for a long time, but it was straight up incorrect.

This history of sports is littered with countless examples of the ways even professionals think about the game being later shown to be obviously wrong. This analysis of DeRozan is really no different. The tools by which we used to evaluate players like him in the past suggested that what he does is "good" for your team and that opinion is shared by many fans, coaches, analysts etc. But we now have a ton of analytical evidence that the conventional wisdom is wrong - his teams are always, always better without him, often way better - his impact on your overall defense is straight up catastrophic, he's generally an overall detriment. How big a detriment remains open for debate - but things like him making All-NBA teams or making the US Olympic team will pretty obviously be viewed as laughable in the pretty near future - even though it was highly respected people inside the game conveying him that status in the present.

This is just a terrible analogy, what does speed represent in DD's case? Besides the fact that it isn't true, some of the best leadoff hitters off all time (Boggs, Rose, Brock, ect..) weren't the fastest but the guys who got on base the most. You also put two all stars together for a good amount of time and it's not common for one player to suffer in on/off as when he's off the court the other all star will be on in a different unit, this is especially true when the other all star is the main ball handler. It was the same with Lebron and Irving, Chris Paul's on/off sig drop when playing with Harden.

Kyrie’s on/off playing with LeBron: +9.2, -0.2, +7.2
LeBron on/off playing with Kyrie: +16.7, +16.5, +17.1

CP3’s on/off playing with Harden: +8.1

How is that in any way comparable to Derozan having a negative +/- every single year on great teams and then continually getting worse in the playoffs each year too?

[Patsfan1081]

:noway: I've never seen a player get crapped on more(takentwise) after changing jerseys than I've had DeRozan. This was a guy that actually wanted to stay in Toronto too and was upset after being traded, yet he gets so disrespected. The guy was just named second team all NBA and certain fans are saying he doesn't even deserve the start in some cases. It's amazing.

Raps fans are one of the wildest fanbases.
Not saying DeMar was some world beater is one thing but they blamed Casey for losing when every non-Raps fan KNEW they had no chance against LeBron or the Warriors.

Yet go back to Dec-January and DeMar was DeKobe and the Raps had an outside chance of beating the Warriors if they were injured...

Now its people saying Lowry is better than Simmons which is laughable, Nurse will be somehow an improvement over Casey, and that they have a chance of beating the Warriors...

Damn where do I start with this post.

1. Demar will def have DeKobe like moments throughout the the regular season. See the 52 pt performance against the Bucks last season. He's automatic in getting you 20+ points in every game if he has too. But its flawed stats. And he never shows up when it matters (Playoffs)

2. Lowry is better than Simmons lol. Idk what to tell you. Simmons will undoubtedly be better than Lowry in the future due to age, but Lowry is better right now. His stats the last 5 seasons speak for itself. It's nowhere close to being "Laughable"

3. You think us saying Nurse will be an improvement over Casey is crazy to say? We've all been criticising Casey and wanted him gone ever since the 2014 sweep to the Wizards. Casey has a lot to do with us getting Spanked by the Cavs. Are you telling me you know more about Casey and Nurse than we do?

4. No raptor fan here has claimed we can beat the Warriors. Yes, I've seen some people claim that if the Raptors make it to the finals, they might put up a fight. Just like the Celtics might as well. I've seen many non-raptor fan claim that as well. But we all know no one is beating the warriors.

Honestly, your whole post just reeks of saliness of how Ben Simmons is losing in this poll to Lowry. Now your out making dumb accusations over raps fans

Lowry hasn't been great in the playoffs either, has a .082 ws per, but he doesn't get crap for it. We're also talking about 18-19 in the poll, as much as it pains me because I hate Simmons their overall production/advanced stats were pretty similar last season and I expect Simmons to be the better player this upcoming season as they're trending in different directions. The hate DD is getting now is ridiculous though, there wasn't nearly close to this much talk about him when he was in a Raptors jersey, especially when they were the first seed heading into the playoffs.

[Filthadelphia]

:noway: I've never seen a player get crapped on more(takentwise) after changing jerseys than I've had DeRozan. This was a guy that actually wanted to stay in Toronto too and was upset after being traded, yet he gets so disrespected. The guy was just named second team all NBA and certain fans are saying he doesn't even deserve the start in some cases. It's amazing.

Raps fans are one of the wildest fanbases.
Not saying DeMar was some world beater is one thing but they blamed Casey for losing when every non-Raps fan KNEW they had no chance against LeBron or the Warriors.

Yet go back to Dec-January and DeMar was DeKobe and the Raps had an outside chance of beating the Warriors if they were injured...

Now its people saying Lowry is better than Simmons which is laughable, Nurse will be somehow an improvement over Casey, and that they have a chance of beating the Warriors...

Damn where do I start with this post.

1. Demar will def have DeKobe like moments throughout the the regular season. See the 52 pt performance against the Bucks last season. He's automatic in getting you 20+ points in every game if he has too. But its flawed stats. And he never shows up when it matters (Playoffs)

2. Lowry is better than Simmons lol. Idk what to tell you. Simmons will undoubtedly be better than Lowry in the future due to age, but Lowry is better right now. His stats the last 5 seasons speak for itself. It's nowhere close to being "Laughable"

3. You think us saying Nurse will be an improvement over Casey is crazy to say? We've all been criticising Casey and wanted him gone ever since the 2014 sweep to the Wizards. Casey has a lot to do with us getting Spanked by the Cavs. Are you telling me you know more about Casey and Nurse than we do?

4. No raptor fan here has claimed we can beat the Wizards. Yes, I've seen some people claim that if the Raptors make it to the finals, they might put up a fight. Just like the Celtics might as well. I've seen many non-raptor fan claim that as well. But we all know no one is beating the warriors.

Honestly, your whole post just reeks of saliness of how Ben Simmons is losing in this poll to Lowry. Now your out making dumb accusations over raps fans

Im not salty I made the poll itself and didnt mind that Lowry was added ahead of Simmons.

1. The fact that a large portion of your fanbase even called him DeKobe in the first place shows the hypocrisy.
For years non-Raps fan told yall DeRozan was fool's gold and it wasnt until he (and Lowry btw) choked in mutliple playoff runs and was traded in desperation that yall came around fully.

2. Lowry's not better than Simmons defensively, scores slightly more on worse efficiency, is 10 years older, has a history of choking in multiple playoff runs, and most of the last 5 seasons have been spent in the weakest division in the league.
Now that the Sixers and Boston have improved its plain to see those 50 win seasons in a more realistic light.

3. Someone explain to me the difference between Nurse and Casey as it pertains to the roster Casey actually coached?
Casey had DeRozan and Lowry vs LeBron. Every non-Raps was not surprised at the outcome considering the participants.
Yet Raps blame Casey for DeRozan and Lowry's shortcomings as players and Masai's inability to see that and fix it earlier.
Its reasonable to expect Nurse to be better simply because he's replacing DeRozan with a legit top 5 talent but that in no way makes Nurse a better coach than Casey in a vacuum. Casey wishes he had Kawhi on those Raps teams he coached.

4. There was a thread on the main board concerning the Raps chances against the Warriors during the 17-18 season.
Raps fans claimed that if the W's had injuries their team could take them. The revisionist history is nuts.

I get that you personally might not have believed or said these things but large chunks of your fanbase did.

[Asif16]

Raps fans are one of the wildest fanbases.
Not saying DeMar was some world beater is one thing but they blamed Casey for losing when every non-Raps fan KNEW they had no chance against LeBron or the Warriors.

Yet go back to Dec-January and DeMar was DeKobe and the Raps had an outside chance of beating the Warriors if they were injured...

Now its people saying Lowry is better than Simmons which is laughable, Nurse will be somehow an improvement over Casey, and that they have a chance of beating the Warriors...

Damn where do I start with this post.

1. Demar will def have DeKobe like moments throughout the the regular season. See the 52 pt performance against the Bucks last season. He's automatic in getting you 20+ points in every game if he has too. But its flawed stats. And he never shows up when it matters (Playoffs)

2. Lowry is better than Simmons lol. Idk what to tell you. Simmons will undoubtedly be better than Lowry in the future due to age, but Lowry is better right now. His stats the last 5 seasons speak for itself. It's nowhere close to being "Laughable"

3. You think us saying Nurse will be an improvement over Casey is crazy to say? We've all been criticising Casey and wanted him gone ever since the 2014 sweep to the Wizards. Casey has a lot to do with us getting Spanked by the Cavs. Are you telling me you know more about Casey and Nurse than we do?

4. No raptor fan here has claimed we can beat the Warriors. Yes, I've seen some people claim that if the Raptors make it to the finals, they might put up a fight. Just like the Celtics might as well. I've seen many non-raptor fan claim that as well. But we all know no one is beating the warriors.

Honestly, your whole post just reeks of saliness of how Ben Simmons is losing in this poll to Lowry. Now your out making dumb accusations over raps fans

Lowry hasn't been great in the playoffs either, has a .082 ws per, but he doesn't get crap for it. We're also talking about 18-19 in the poll, as much as it pains me because I hate Simmons their overall production/advanced stats were pretty similar last season and I expect Simmons to be the better player this upcoming season as they're trending in different directions. The hate DD is getting now is ridiculous though, there wasn't nearly close to this much talk about him when he was in a Raptors jersey, especially when they were the first seed heading into the playoffs.

I dont know how many times I will say this, Lowry has been significantly injured going into the playoffs for 3/5 years. He literally came of surgery for 2 of those years, a WEEK before the playoffs started.

When you compare that to Derozan...it doesnt compare. The hate for Derozan is solely on playoff performance. Like I said, I dont deny the fact that we have also hyped up Derozan but that was in the Regular season when he was putting up 20+pts on a nightly basis with ease.

[Asif16]

Raps fans are one of the wildest fanbases.
Not saying DeMar was some world beater is one thing but they blamed Casey for losing when every non-Raps fan KNEW they had no chance against LeBron or the Warriors.

Yet go back to Dec-January and DeMar was DeKobe and the Raps had an outside chance of beating the Warriors if they were injured...

Now its people saying Lowry is better than Simmons which is laughable, Nurse will be somehow an improvement over Casey, and that they have a chance of beating the Warriors...

Damn where do I start with this post.

1. Demar will def have DeKobe like moments throughout the the regular season. See the 52 pt performance against the Bucks last season. He's automatic in getting you 20+ points in every game if he has too. But its flawed stats. And he never shows up when it matters (Playoffs)

2. Lowry is better than Simmons lol. Idk what to tell you. Simmons will undoubtedly be better than Lowry in the future due to age, but Lowry is better right now. His stats the last 5 seasons speak for itself. It's nowhere close to being "Laughable"

3. You think us saying Nurse will be an improvement over Casey is crazy to say? We've all been criticising Casey and wanted him gone ever since the 2014 sweep to the Wizards. Casey has a lot to do with us getting Spanked by the Cavs. Are you telling me you know more about Casey and Nurse than we do?

4. No raptor fan here has claimed we can beat the Wizards. Yes, I've seen some people claim that if the Raptors make it to the finals, they might put up a fight. Just like the Celtics might as well. I've seen many non-raptor fan claim that as well. But we all know no one is beating the warriors.

Honestly, your whole post just reeks of saliness of how Ben Simmons is losing in this poll to Lowry. Now your out making dumb accusations over raps fans

Im not salty I made the poll itself and didnt mind that Lowry was added ahead of Simmons.

1. The fact that a large portion of your fanbase even called him DeKobe in the first place shows the hypocrisy.
For years non-Raps fan told yall DeRozan was fool's gold and it wasnt until he (and Lowry btw) choked in mutliple playoff runs and was traded in desperation that yall came around fully.

2. Lowry's not better than Simmons defensively, scores slightly more on worse efficiency, is 10 years older, has a history of choking in multiple playoff runs, and most of the last 5 seasons have been spent in the weakest division in the league.
Now that the Sixers and Boston have improved its plain to see those 50 win seasons in a more realistic light.

3. Someone explain to me the difference between Nurse and Casey as it pertains to the roster Casey actually coached?
Casey had DeRozan and Lowry vs LeBron. Every non-Raps was not surprised at the outcome considering the participants.
Yet Raps blame Casey for DeRozan and Lowry's shortcomings as players and Masai's inability to see that and fix it earlier.
Its reasonable to expect Nurse to be better simply because he's replacing DeRozan with a legit top 5 talent but that in no way makes Nurse a better coach than Casey in a vacuum. Casey wishes he had Kawhi on those Raps teams he coached.

4. There was a thread on the main board concerning the Raps chances against the Warriors during the 17-18 season.
Raps fans claimed that if the W's had injuries their team could take them. The revisionist history is nuts.

I get that you personally might not have believed or said these things but large chunks of your fanbase did.

1. Lol oh my god "DeKobe" is fun banter when he goes off in regular season games. You really mad about a term we made up. Every fan base hyped up their players. Just like you doing with Ben Simmons. How is it hypocrisy? Of course as raptor fans, we expect Derozan to carry into to playoff games, but for the most part he never did. You gonna put us on blast for having faith in one of our players? You realize how dumb that sounds?

2. Simmons, is slightly better at defense than Lowry, but Lowry is an incredible defender in his own right. He's a far better offensive player and shooter, where Simmons cant shoot to save his life. How are you bringing in "History of choking", when Ben simmons wasnt even in the league. Lowry had a better playoff than Simmons last year alone (im sorry, didnt he have a 1pt game??). How are you also bringing up weak divison and age arguments? Thats the dumbest argument you can have. What does age have to do with who is currently better right now. The thread isnt about, "who you would want to start a Franchise with" currently. It's liek your grasping for straws to discredit Lowry. Oh and btw, for all that choking you reffered too...raptors still have the 3rd highest Wins in the playoffs the last 5 years behind the Warriors/Cavs. Lowry led us to the ECF just 2 years ago.

3. Like I said, this topic is something you clearly dont know about, So I suggest you stop talking about it. Casey made numerous head scratching decisions, whether it was X's and O's, substitutions, matchups, etc...the last 5 years for us to warrant that Nurse is going to make a huge difference. Nurse was the sole reason why our offense last year changed so much, or else it would've stayed Casey's way. Casey is a stubborn old school type of coach. Nurse is the complete opposite (with what he's said publicly so far), but yes its to be determined whether or not he's going to be good next season. Even before the Kawhi/Derozan trade, our who system next season was going to change. This team needed a coaching change in the worst way. Wether or not a philly fan thinks Casey shouldve stayed, doesnt make a difference here

4. You referring to a thread last year? If the warriors actually had injuries, who knows what could happen. Lol you act like we were a 8th seed team making those claims. If you had the regular season we did, then yeah you would've been excited as well. It happens to every fanbase. Lol again it sounds like your just reaching