RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#21 2018-19

[iggymcfrack]

Box score stats comparison for Klay and Simmons:

Klay Thompson: 20.0/3.8/2.5, 16.1 PER, .094 WS/48, -0.6 BPM

Ben Simmons: 15.8/8.1/8.2, 20.0 PER, .162 WS/48, 4.6 BPM

Don’t know how you look at that and conclude that Ben Simmons who’s also an amazing defender was not only worse than Klay Thompson last year, but will continue to be worse next year.

[iggymcfrack]

Also, if you think Simmons isn’t going to be any better next year, here’s his +/- by month last season:

October: -4.2
November: +5.5
December: -2.0
January: +6.7
February: +9.2
March: +18.3
April: +12.9

[mtron929]

I just feel like in general, young players (e.g. Simmons, Tatum, Mitchell) should get more benefit of a doubt compared to old players in this type of a poll. Why? Because everyone knows that players make great jump between 1st and 2nd year. Everyone also knows that veterans rarely make any jumps or in all likelihood declines. So even if you evaluate Klay to be better than Simmons, for the 2018-19, you should extrapolate that Simmons will close the gap (if there exists one) drastically. And as such, these types of comparisons should be biased for the young player(s).

[Atmanne]

nominating Hayward

[ITYSL]

And what preconceived biases would those be exactly? I don't even really have a favorite team. I was betting on the Celtics all through the playoffs last year. I certainly don't have anything against them. I was even arguing that Horford was the Celtics' best player before Kyrie went down last year. Sorry I can't hold up to the standard of Mr. Objective with 4 Boston teams next to his name who's vehemently arguing for a Celtic over a Sixer.

Oh, I don't care a whit if Horford gets in next. I'm not arguing for him, and my first post in this thread didn't even mention him. It mentioned Jrue and Kemba as being better candidates than Simmons and Klay. I see strong arguments for everyone on this list except for Cousins (b/c of injury), DeRozan (repeated playoff woes) and Simmons (PG who shot 0 threes in a shooter's league, horrible on/off in last playoff series, bascially still an unproven rookie). I don't just look at RPM and make my decision on that, like you have basically done for 20 threads except this one.

This is how the thread went:
- I said how odd it was that people who argued almost exclusively with advanced stats like RPM seemed to be ignoring them in this thread
- You said we should compare Simmons' one-year RPM to other players' averages over the last few years
- I pointed out how that's not like-to-like and a bad comparison. Different sample sizes, etc.
- You replied and wrote, among other things, that Brad Stevens was the GOAT coach

On second thought, I should have stopped replying to you after you posted that last bullet point.

[ITYSL]

Also, if you think Simmons isn’t going to be any better next year, here’s his +/- by month last season:

October: -4.2
November: +5.5
December: -2.0
January: +6.7
February: +9.2
March: +18.3
April: +12.9
May -10.5

ftfy

[iggymcfrack]

You really can’t win bringing up stats in this kind of thread. It’s either “all you do is parrot a bunch of numbers while ignoring context!” or “how dare you bring up context instead of rigidly comparing one year’s numbers side-by-side”.

[iggymcfrack]

Also, if you think Simmons isn’t going to be any better next year, here’s his +/- by month last season:

October: -4.2
November: +5.5
December: -2.0
January: +6.7
February: +9.2
March: +18.3
April: +12.9
May -10.5

ftfy

Yeah, yeah, everyone knows the GOAT tripped him up with a genius new scheme that his own dunderheaded coach had no answer for. I’m thinking with a year to work on it, they should be able to figure something out.

[brackdan70]

Box score stats comparison for Klay and Simmons:

Klay Thompson: 20.0/3.8/2.5, 16.1 PER, .094 WS/48, -0.6 BPM

Ben Simmons: 15.8/8.1/8.2, 20.0 PER, .162 WS/48, 4.6 BPM

Don’t know how you look at that and conclude that Ben Simmons who’s also an amazing defender was not only worse than Klay Thompson last year, but will continue to be worse next year.

Did you notice how useless he Simmons was in the playoffs? Numbers never lie but you have to know the story they tell.

[clyde21]

Ben Simmons is a better player than Klay. Even Mitchell is and will be a better player next year.

[bondom34]

Box score stats comparison for Klay and Simmons:

Klay Thompson: 20.0/3.8/2.5, 16.1 PER, .094 WS/48, -0.6 BPM

Ben Simmons: 15.8/8.1/8.2, 20.0 PER, .162 WS/48, 4.6 BPM

Don’t know how you look at that and conclude that Ben Simmons who’s also an amazing defender was not only worse than Klay Thompson last year, but will continue to be worse next year.

Did you notice how useless he Simmons was in the playoffs? Numbers never lie but you have to know the story they tell.

16/9/8 with a 16.6 PER and 3 BPM is useless?

[Homerclease]

Box score stats comparison for Klay and Simmons:

Klay Thompson: 20.0/3.8/2.5, 16.1 PER, .094 WS/48, -0.6 BPM

Ben Simmons: 15.8/8.1/8.2, 20.0 PER, .162 WS/48, 4.6 BPM

Don’t know how you look at that and conclude that Ben Simmons who’s also an amazing defender was not only worse than Klay Thompson last year, but will continue to be worse next year.

Did you notice how useless he Simmons was in the playoffs? Numbers never lie but you have to know the story they tell.

16/9/8 with a 16.6 PER and 3 BPM is useless?

Yes. Philly was leagues better with him off the court in the Celtics series despite impressive box score numbers. They were much more effective with McConnel in the game. Simmons complete lack of an outside shot or the willingness to even take one was completely exposed and the primary reason that Philly got beat so handily

[bondom34]

Did you notice how useless he Simmons was in the playoffs? Numbers never lie but you have to know the story they tell.

16/9/8 with a 16.6 PER and 3 BPM is useless?

Yes. Philly was leagues better with him off the court in the Celtics series despite impressive box score numbers. They were much more effective with McConnel in the game. Simmons complete lack of an outside shot or the willingness to even take one was completely exposed and the primary reason that Philly got beat so handily

Ignoring the entire Heat series, where he dominated and nearly averaged a triple double, and ignoring that among players already listed/voted for include these playoff performances:

Embiid: Played out against Boston
Gobert: Played out against Houston
Lillard: Played out against NOLA
Irving: Literally didn't play
Jokic: Literally didn't play
Westbrook/George: Both relatively underwhelming against Utah
KAT: Played out against Houston

Heck, even AD vs Houston was pretty meh.

Comparing playoff numbers for Klay and Simmons leans Simmons. He had a poor series against a really good team. He should be higher than this on the list, especially projecting forward.

[Homerclease]

16/9/8 with a 16.6 PER and 3 BPM is useless?

Yes. Philly was leagues better with him off the court in the Celtics series despite impressive box score numbers. They were much more effective with McConnel in the game. Simmons complete lack of an outside shot or the willingness to even take one was completely exposed and the primary reason that Philly got beat so handily

Ignoring the entire Heat series, where he dominated and nearly averaged a triple double, and ignoring that among players already listed/voted for include these playoff performances:

Embiid: Played out against Boston
Gobert: Played out against Houston
Lillard: Played out against NOLA
Irving: Literally didn't play
Jokic: Literally didn't play
Westbrook/George: Both relatively underwhelming against Utah
KAT: Played out against Houston

Comparing playoff numbers for Klay and Simmons leans Simmons. He had a poor series against a really good team. He should be higher than this on the list, especially projecting forward.

He shouldn’t be on this list period. Certainly not over guys like Horford, Hayward, Klay and many, many others

[bondom34]

Yes. Philly was leagues better with him off the court in the Celtics series despite impressive box score numbers. They were much more effective with McConnel in the game. Simmons complete lack of an outside shot or the willingness to even take one was completely exposed and the primary reason that Philly got beat so handily

Ignoring the entire Heat series, where he dominated and nearly averaged a triple double, and ignoring that among players already listed/voted for include these playoff performances:

Embiid: Played out against Boston
Gobert: Played out against Houston
Lillard: Played out against NOLA
Irving: Literally didn't play
Jokic: Literally didn't play
Westbrook/George: Both relatively underwhelming against Utah
KAT: Played out against Houston

Comparing playoff numbers for Klay and Simmons leans Simmons. He had a poor series against a really good team. He should be higher than this on the list, especially projecting forward.

He shouldn’t be on this list period. Certainly not over guys like Horford, Hayward, Klay and many, many others

Yeah, he pretty well should. Unless your gauge is "PPG is good". Simmons was an elite playmaker with all NBA defense on a great team who still scored with above average efficiency. Unless you literally only saw him for the Boston series, it's kinda ridiculous to say he doesn't. And putting him behind a guy who snapped his leg seems like a risky take either way.

But he was as good or better than them last year, and younger, so yeah he does.

[Homerclease]

Ignoring the entire Heat series, where he dominated and nearly averaged a triple double, and ignoring that among players already listed/voted for include these playoff performances:

Embiid: Played out against Boston
Gobert: Played out against Houston
Lillard: Played out against NOLA
Irving: Literally didn't play
Jokic: Literally didn't play
Westbrook/George: Both relatively underwhelming against Utah
KAT: Played out against Houston

Comparing playoff numbers for Klay and Simmons leans Simmons. He had a poor series against a really good team. He should be higher than this on the list, especially projecting forward.

He shouldn’t be on this list period. Certainly not over guys like Horford, Hayward, Klay and many, many others

Yeah, he pretty well should. Unless your gauge is "PPG is good". Simmons was an elite playmaker with all NBA defense on a great team who still scored with above average efficiency. Unless you literally only saw him for the Boston series, it's kinda ridiculous to say he doesn't. And putting him behind a guy who snapped his leg seems like a risky take either way.

But he was as good or better than them last year, and younger, so yeah he does.

Couldn’t disagree more. He’s an extremely talented yet extremely flawed player with a very real ceiling right now until he learns how to shoot a jumper. Even Rondo would at least take one here and there to try to keep a defense honest. Simmons is terrified to shoot. Saying he’s better than Al Horford or Klay Thompson is laughable

[bondom34]

He shouldn’t be on this list period. Certainly not over guys like Horford, Hayward, Klay and many, many others

Yeah, he pretty well should. Unless your gauge is "PPG is good". Simmons was an elite playmaker with all NBA defense on a great team who still scored with above average efficiency. Unless you literally only saw him for the Boston series, it's kinda ridiculous to say he doesn't. And putting him behind a guy who snapped his leg seems like a risky take either way.

But he was as good or better than them last year, and younger, so yeah he does.

Couldn’t disagree more. He’s an extremely talented yet extremely flawed player with a very real ceiling right now until he learns how to shoot a jumper. Even Rondo would at least take one here and there to try to keep a defense honest. Simmons is terrified to shoot. Saying he’s better than Al Horford or Klay Thompson is laughable

http://bkref.com/tiny/Xohfh

Care to make an objective case? Because that sounds like Giannis mostly, who was doing similar at age 21. At age 22 he was entering MVP level play.

Sounds like someone who didn't notice what Simmons did for 82 plus games, and focused on a series. He's better on both ends of the court than Klay and plays a bigger role offensively. He's younger than Horford and had as much impact last year. Hayward was marginally if at all better when healthy and snapped a leg. Guys over him have worse flaws than this.

Its actually laughable to dismiss him like this, but I'm reasonably sure this is a "PPG" take. Because scoring is the way to measure playing ability for many.

[Homerclease]

Yeah, he pretty well should. Unless your gauge is "PPG is good". Simmons was an elite playmaker with all NBA defense on a great team who still scored with above average efficiency. Unless you literally only saw him for the Boston series, it's kinda ridiculous to say he doesn't. And putting him behind a guy who snapped his leg seems like a risky take either way.

But he was as good or better than them last year, and younger, so yeah he does.

Couldn’t disagree more. He’s an extremely talented yet extremely flawed player with a very real ceiling right now until he learns how to shoot a jumper. Even Rondo would at least take one here and there to try to keep a defense honest. Simmons is terrified to shoot. Saying he’s better than Al Horford or Klay Thompson is laughable

http://bkref.com/tiny/Xohfh

Care to make an objective case? Because that sounds like Giannis mostly, who was doing similar at age 21. At age 22 he was entering MVP level play.

Sounds like someone who didn't notice what Simmons did for 82 plus games, and focused on a series. He's better on both ends of the court than Klay and plays a bigger role offensively. He's younger than Horford and had as much impact last year. Hayward was marginally if at all better when healthy and snapped a leg. Guys over him have worse flaws than this.

Its actually laughable to dismiss him like this, but I'm reasonably sure this is a "PPG" take. Because scoring is the way to measure playing ability for many.

If it was a ppg take I wouldn’t be citing Al Horford as a superior player. I’d be talking about guys like Wall and Boogie Cousins. This is just another one of the long line of bad basketball takes by you and the same snobbish attitude when anyone disagrees with you.

[bondom34]

Couldn’t disagree more. He’s an extremely talented yet extremely flawed player with a very real ceiling right now until he learns how to shoot a jumper. Even Rondo would at least take one here and there to try to keep a defense honest. Simmons is terrified to shoot. Saying he’s better than Al Horford or Klay Thompson is laughable

http://bkref.com/tiny/Xohfh

Care to make an objective case? Because that sounds like Giannis mostly, who was doing similar at age 21. At age 22 he was entering MVP level play.

Sounds like someone who didn't notice what Simmons did for 82 plus games, and focused on a series. He's better on both ends of the court than Klay and plays a bigger role offensively. He's younger than Horford and had as much impact last year. Hayward was marginally if at all better when healthy and snapped a leg. Guys over him have worse flaws than this.

Its actually laughable to dismiss him like this, but I'm reasonably sure this is a "PPG" take. Because scoring is the way to measure playing ability for many.

If it was a ppg take I wouldn’t be citing Al Horford as a superior player. I’d be talking about guys like Wall and Boogie Cousins. This is just another one of the long line of bad basketball takes by you and the same snobbish attitude when anyone disagrees with you.

1. Not being snobbish, but saying he has no place when by literally every measure he does is....odd?
2. Wouldn't be calling people for bad takes if I were you.

3. Him averaging over 3X the assists and double rebounds with better defense than Klay would tell me not only does he belong, he's probably better. And Hayward again, leg. If you want to take Horford I wouldn't kill that choice but the others are a no. And saying he "doesn't belong" isn't a reasonable thing to say in the least. That's what's a "PPG take".



Yep, thats a good case.

[Homerclease]

http://bkref.com/tiny/Xohfh

Care to make an objective case? Because that sounds like Giannis mostly, who was doing similar at age 21. At age 22 he was entering MVP level play.

Sounds like someone who didn't notice what Simmons did for 82 plus games, and focused on a series. He's better on both ends of the court than Klay and plays a bigger role offensively. He's younger than Horford and had as much impact last year. Hayward was marginally if at all better when healthy and snapped a leg. Guys over him have worse flaws than this.

Its actually laughable to dismiss him like this, but I'm reasonably sure this is a "PPG" take. Because scoring is the way to measure playing ability for many.

If it was a ppg take I wouldn’t be citing Al Horford as a superior player. I’d be talking about guys like Wall and Boogie Cousins. This is just another one of the long line of bad basketball takes by you and the same snobbish attitude when anyone disagrees with you.

1. Not being snobbish, but saying he has no place when by literally every measure he does is....odd?
2. Wouldn't be calling people for bad takes if I were you.

3. Him averaging over 3X the assists and double rebounds with better defense than Klay would tell me not only does he belong, he's probably better. And Hayward again, leg. If you want to take Horford I wouldn't kill that choice but the others are a no. And saying he "doesn't belong" isn't a reasonable thing to say in the least. That's what's a "PPG take".

1. Yes you are.
2. Your list of #freezingcoldtakes is much longer and worse than mine.
3. Of course he has better stats. He plays on a significantly worse team and has the ball in his hands a lot more. Simmons belongs closer to top 50 than top 25.