RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#12 2019-20

[scrabbarista]

Vote Gobert.

Nominate NIKOLA VUCEVIC.

[KrazyP]

This poll shows how much of a dropoff there is after the top 10ish players.

Westbrook - tunnel vision
Durant - injured
Simmons - guard with no jump shot
Green - limited offensively
Irving - chemistry killer, suspect D, iso heavy
Towns - soft
Beal - weak D, hasnt really accomplished anything
Gobert - i like him, but is he really top 12?

All of these guys would have a tough time winning anything significant as the best player on their respective teams.

[sixerswillrule]

This poll shows how much of a dropoff there is after the top 10ish players.

Westbrook - tunnel vision
Durant - injured
Simmons - guard with no jump shot
Green - limited offensively
Irving - chemistry killer, suspect D, iso heavy
Towns - soft
Beal - weak D, hasnt really accomplished anything
Gobert - i like him, but is he really top 12?

All of these guys would have a tough time winning anything significant as the best player on their respective teams.

Isn't that normally the case every season?

[ropjhk]

Lowry really needs to start making the poll. The Raps won the title and didn't have two top 20 players? C'mon people...

I had him as a Top 12 or 13 player last season, but he did decline some last season and he’s 33 right now. Like is he really better than Chris Paul? They’re less than a year apart in age and CP3 was clearly better every season until last year. Is he better than Siakam for the upcoming year? Some people (not me) thought Pascal was better last year and he’s improving faster than anyone in the league while Siakam is declining. I mean, sure he’s better than Westbrook, a lot of guys are, but I still can’t quite see him as a slam dunk at this point.

His raw stats took a hit by switching to a facilitator behind Kawhi and Siakam.

But in terms of who helps you win the most? Lowry has to be on the list with the guys in this poll. Yeah, helps you win more than Chris Paul at this point.

I thought people after the playoffs would realize the little things Lowry does that gets the W.

Watch on YouTube

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The little things Lowry does on the court is what makes him valuable and it's what makes him an advanced stats darling. These traits used to be called 'intangibles' but they are becoming more tangible with advanced metrics. That said, players generally don't get a top 15 rating on the strength of intangibles. Lowry is a pretty good playmaker, good defender and a decent scorer but it's hard to rate him in the top 15 when he doesn't have the ability to take over a game as the centrepiece.

I also would rate Siakam ahead of Lowry for next season. Siakam is already an elite defender (at least top 10 in my book) and one of the more efficient scorers in the NBA (though we'll see how he deals with the loss of Kawhi). With the rapid growth he's showed every year so far it's not unreasonable to expect that he will add yet another dimension to his game this offseason.

[iggymcfrack]

Lowry really needs to start making the poll. The Raps won the title and didn't have two top 20 players? C'mon people...

I had him as a Top 12 or 13 player last season, but he did decline some last season and he’s 33 right now. Like is he really better than Chris Paul? They’re less than a year apart in age and CP3 was clearly better every season until last year. Is he better than Siakam for the upcoming year? Some people (not me) thought Pascal was better last year and he’s improving faster than anyone in the league while Siakam is declining. I mean, sure he’s better than Westbrook, a lot of guys are, but I still can’t quite see him as a slam dunk at this point.

His raw stats took a hit by switching to a facilitator behind Kawhi and Siakam.

But in terms of who helps you win the most? Lowry has to be on the list with the guys in this poll. Yeah, helps you win more than Chris Paul at this point.

I thought people after the playoffs would realize the little things Lowry does that gets the W.

Watch on YouTube

;feature=share

Hey don’t get me wrong, I’ve been on the Lowry train for years. He’s obviously very good. I’d have him ahead of most of the players currently nominated. Maybe for the upcoming season he’s clearly behind the people voted in so far plus Draymond Green. Somewhat on the same level as Towns, CP3, Siakam, Simmons, and Jrue. So somewhere between 14 and 19 for the upcoming season. I think that’s fair. Probably #18 if I were to pick one spot. You have to expect at least a minor dropoff for the coming season though. He’s 100 some days older than Chris Paul was last year and we all saw what happened to him.

[iggymcfrack]

For now I’m still gonna have to nominate Pascal Siakam

[Duffman100]

I had him as a Top 12 or 13 player last season, but he did decline some last season and he’s 33 right now. Like is he really better than Chris Paul? They’re less than a year apart in age and CP3 was clearly better every season until last year. Is he better than Siakam for the upcoming year? Some people (not me) thought Pascal was better last year and he’s improving faster than anyone in the league while Siakam is declining. I mean, sure he’s better than Westbrook, a lot of guys are, but I still can’t quite see him as a slam dunk at this point.

His raw stats took a hit by switching to a facilitator behind Kawhi and Siakam.

But in terms of who helps you win the most? Lowry has to be on the list with the guys in this poll. Yeah, helps you win more than Chris Paul at this point.

I thought people after the playoffs would realize the little things Lowry does that gets the W.

Watch on YouTube

;feature=share

The little things Lowry does on the court is what makes him valuable and it's what makes him an advanced stats darling. These traits used to be called 'intangibles' but they are becoming more tangible with advanced metrics. That said, players generally don't get a top 15 rating on the strength of intangibles. Lowry is a pretty good playmaker, good defender and a decent scorer but it's hard to rate him in the top 15 when he doesn't have the ability to take over a game as the centrepiece.

I also would rate Siakam ahead of Lowry for next season. Siakam is already an elite defender (at least top 10 in my book) and one of the more efficient scorers in the NBA (though we'll see how he deals with the loss of Kawhi). With the rapid growth he's showed every year so far it's not unreasonable to expect that he will add yet another dimension to his game this offseason.

For sure, but if he's going to be top 20, he should be on the list now. We're starting to get to that point.

[iggymcfrack]

His raw stats took a hit by switching to a facilitator behind Kawhi and Siakam.

But in terms of who helps you win the most? Lowry has to be on the list with the guys in this poll. Yeah, helps you win more than Chris Paul at this point.

I thought people after the playoffs would realize the little things Lowry does that gets the W.

Watch on YouTube

;feature=share

The little things Lowry does on the court is what makes him valuable and it's what makes him an advanced stats darling. These traits used to be called 'intangibles' but they are becoming more tangible with advanced metrics. That said, players generally don't get a top 15 rating on the strength of intangibles. Lowry is a pretty good playmaker, good defender and a decent scorer but it's hard to rate him in the top 15 when he doesn't have the ability to take over a game as the centrepiece.

I also would rate Siakam ahead of Lowry for next season. Siakam is already an elite defender (at least top 10 in my book) and one of the more efficient scorers in the NBA (though we'll see how he deals with the loss of Kawhi). With the rapid growth he's showed every year so far it's not unreasonable to expect that he will add yet another dimension to his game this offseason.

For sure, but if he's going to be top 20, he should be on the list now. We're starting to get to that point.

Yeah, my point is that there are a lot of players who should go top 20 who haven’t been nominated yet, because a lot of the players who were nominated are pretty far off. KD doesn’t belong in the top 60, and none of Westbrook, Kyrie, Beal, Walker, or Griffin belongs in the top 25. Gobert’s actually one of the better candidates left and I don’t think he belongs in the top 20 either. I think a proper list right now in order is something like:

Draymond
Towns
Siakam
Jrue
CP3
Lowry
Simmons
Oladipo
Doncic
Gobert

[niQ]

Vote: Westbrook
Nominate: Lowry

[jjscap]

Voted Gobert
Add Jrue

[iggymcfrack]

It's not too late to get on the Towns train. Remember, we're trying to project for 2019-20, not trying to look at previous season's production. Here are the RPMs by year for the top 3 candidates:

Westbrook
Age 25: +5.05
Age 26: +7.08
Age 27: +7.85
Age 28: +6.27
Age 29: +5.16
Age 30: +2.51
Age 31: ?????

Gobert
Age 21: -2.26
Age 22: +1.97
Age 23: +2.34
Age 24: +6.37
Age 25: +3.82
Age 26: +4.64
Age 27: ?????

Towns
Age 21: +2.13
Age 22: +4.24
Age 23: +3.86
Age 24: ?????

I feel like Westbrook's the easiest to eliminate. He's at an age where even typical players are starting to hit serious decline, let alone a player who has relied more on speed, jumping ability, athleticism, and throwing his body around than possibly anyone in the league. And the decline has been clear. It's not hypothetical, it's something we're seeing year after year. He was the worst of the three last year and that gap should only widen going forward. Gobert's been good, but he doesn't seem to be trending up any more and has 3 consecutive playoff failures on his hands while Towns only has one. Meanwhile Towns is hitting an age right where centers start to really hit their prime and is also a full season removed from the Jimmy Butler drama that tore the team apart last season. He's ready to make a major leap.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Vote Draymond

Nominate Oladipo

[Memgrizz0]

Vote Russell Westbrook
Nominate Brandon Clarke

Brandon Clarke will be a top 50 player his rookie year. Book it.

[Metallikid]

I’ll usually stick to my guns with a player even when they don’t have much of a chance to win, but I really have Dray and KAT pretty close to a tossup here, and Westbrook and Gobert would both be such awful choices I feel like I have to do something to fight against them. So switching my vote to KAT for now.

Like everyone voting has done such a good job so far. I thought AD maybe went 2 spots too low and everyone else has been voted in within one rank of where I’d put them. But this would be at least 20 spots too early for Westbrook. He ranked outside the top 30 in most comprehensive stats last year, and he’s in the middle of a car crash steep decline. Expecting him to bounce back would be like expecting Derrick Rose to be a Top 10 player in Cleveland. Or like expecting Melo to bounce back to form in OKC. Or expecting T-Mac to be a top 10 player after a couple years in Houston. Or expecting Vince Carter to be a top 10 player in Orlando. In the NBA, once you lose that much you don’t get it back. That’s just not how this league works. And statistically Westbrook has absolutely lost as much from his peak as those players. He’s just not that guy that he used to be.

I would vote for Chris Paul over Westbrook but people felt Ben Simmons is the better player.

I think it’s reasonable to project some decent growth for Simmons in Year 3. He had a difficult situation last year with Butler sharing the lead playmaker role that made it difficult for him to really make a leap, but I think you’ll see more of it this season. Simmons 2018 season had a better RPM than Westbrook’s 2019. If you wanna say Paul’s better I won’t argue with you, but I’d say Simmons, Green, and Towns are all clearly ahead of Westbrook this season.

RPM is great and all but I don't think Towns is a winning player. It's just like AD. Fantastic stats, but it doesn't translate. Simmons isn't even in this conversation from my perspective. For me a young player would have to blow my mind for me to put them ahead of long established, consistently productive players. And separate of that I'd rather have Trae Young, Doncic, Fox, Hield and a couple other people before Simmons and I'm not even considering nominating those guys yet. So that shows you what I think about Ben Simmons. Earlier in the season I thought he was better than Pascal but looking back at it I think I was wrong. Simmons could still be better than the people I just mentioned but I think he's had too much hype now and I don't see him reaching his full potential.

[baldur]

Why is Durant still here for the 12th straight time?

op doesnt read this thread, he just opens it and disappears.

[baldur]

voted westbrook
remove durant
add oladipo and lowry.

[cellphonecamera]

Why is Durant still here for the 12th straight time?

op doesnt read this thread, he just opens it and disappears.

He has to read it to see the nominations.

[baldur]

Why is Durant still here for the 12th straight time?

op doesnt read this thread, he just opens it and disappears.

He has to read it to see the nominations.

then he doesnt give a ****.

[iggymcfrack]

I would vote for Chris Paul over Westbrook but people felt Ben Simmons is the better player.

I think it’s reasonable to project some decent growth for Simmons in Year 3. He had a difficult situation last year with Butler sharing the lead playmaker role that made it difficult for him to really make a leap, but I think you’ll see more of it this season. Simmons 2018 season had a better RPM than Westbrook’s 2019. If you wanna say Paul’s better I won’t argue with you, but I’d say Simmons, Green, and Towns are all clearly ahead of Westbrook this season.

RPM is great and all but I don't think Towns is a winning player. It's just like AD. Fantastic stats, but it doesn't translate. Simmons isn't even in this conversation from my perspective. For me a young player would have to blow my mind for me to put them ahead of long established, consistently productive players. And separate of that I'd rather have Trae Young, Doncic, Fox, Hield and a couple other people before Simmons and I'm not even considering nominating those guys yet. So that shows you what I think about Ben Simmons. Earlier in the season I thought he was better than Pascal but looking back at it I think I was wrong. Simmons could still be better than the people I just mentioned but I think he's had too much hype now and I don't see him reaching his full potential.

Career on/off of +5.8 from ages 20-23 without really playing with starters who complement his game at all. He’s still at an age where he’s learning how to play at an elite level. Makes sense he should take another big step forward this year.

If you really want to go with an established guy though, Draymond’s your best bet by far. He was still a top 5 player in the playoffs last year while Westbrook was absolutely awful. Could argue he’s been the 2nd best player in the postseason overall the last 5 years behind LeBron.

[Metallikid]

I think it’s reasonable to project some decent growth for Simmons in Year 3. He had a difficult situation last year with Butler sharing the lead playmaker role that made it difficult for him to really make a leap, but I think you’ll see more of it this season. Simmons 2018 season had a better RPM than Westbrook’s 2019. If you wanna say Paul’s better I won’t argue with you, but I’d say Simmons, Green, and Towns are all clearly ahead of Westbrook this season.

RPM is great and all but I don't think Towns is a winning player. It's just like AD. Fantastic stats, but it doesn't translate. Simmons isn't even in this conversation from my perspective. For me a young player would have to blow my mind for me to put them ahead of long established, consistently productive players. And separate of that I'd rather have Trae Young, Doncic, Fox, Hield and a couple other people before Simmons and I'm not even considering nominating those guys yet. So that shows you what I think about Ben Simmons. Earlier in the season I thought he was better than Pascal but looking back at it I think I was wrong. Simmons could still be better than the people I just mentioned but I think he's had too much hype now and I don't see him reaching his full potential.

Career on/off of +5.8 from ages 20-23 without really playing with starters who complement his game at all. He’s still at an age where he’s learning how to play at an elite level. Makes sense he should take another big step forward this year.

If you really want to go with an established guy though, Draymond’s your best bet by far. He was still a top 5 player in the playoffs last year while Westbrook was absolutely awful. Could argue he’s been the 2nd best player in the postseason overall the last 5 years behind LeBron.

Is Towns better than AD? AD had those extra seasons of 'learning how to play at an elite level' with a #2 as good as Jrue Holiday (who is great and perennially underrated) and still couldn't find any success. In basketball single players can have an inordinate impact on winning and AD and Towns don't do that from my perspective.

I definitely considered Draymond for my vote. I was choosing between Westbrook, Draymond, Kemba and Blake. I'm just not as down on Westbrook as you are. I feel like playing more off the ball will help him efficiency-wise.