Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player?

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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#61 » by 50CalClips » Wed Sep 4, 2019 10:14 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:Blake was never the guy with the *will to win*, to put a team on his back. At his best, Blake was the "number 2" guy on a Championship Contending-caliber team.

He was a Top 10 player at one point or another, but he was never the "Number 1" guy on any elite team, never a killer.


Fool's Gold "Max" Players:
Blake Griffin
Carmelo Anthony
Jimmy Butler
Dwight Howard
...


This is false. He is a CAREER 22 ppg player who was a far more dependable go to player than CP3 pretty much every year. At his peak such as 13, 14 seasons and 15 playoffs.. he was a legit #1 guy in every sense of the word. Sounds more like newer fan who didn't watch younger Blake probably. Not to say he wasn't mentally weak or lacking in killer instinct at times, but to say he was "never the number 1 guy" is wrong. The Clippers had a top 5 all time offense, surprisingly up there with the juggernaut dynasty Warriors efficiency/lineup wise.. and Blake was the main horse for getting consistent offense.


Hindsight... Chris and Blake were both "Number 2" guys.

PLAYOFFS CAREER with Clippers:

Blake: +2 NetRating (109 Off / 107 Def)
Chris: +12 NetRating (120 Off / 108 Def)

Blake: 5.0 WinShare (.133 WS-per48)
Chris: 8.5 WinShare (.210 WS-per48)

P.S.
Watched the Clippers since Mark Jackson
Fan of the Clippers since Lamar Odom
You're not talking to a "newer fan"
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#62 » by Soulcatcher33 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 10:18 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:Blake was never the guy with the *will to win*, to put a team on his back. At his best, Blake was the "number 2" guy on a Championship Contending-caliber team.

He was a Top 10 player at one point or another, but he was never the "Number 1" guy on any elite team, never a killer.


Fool's Gold "Max" Players:
Blake Griffin
Carmelo Anthony
Jimmy Butler
Dwight Howard
...


This is false. He is a CAREER 22 ppg player who was a far more dependable go to player than CP3 pretty much every year


haha no. Blake ALWAYS disappeared in 4th quarters. There's a reason why CP3 had to take so much on down the stretch and that's because of Griffin's disappearing acts. Paul could have been putting up 20-22ppg every single year on great efficiency on the Clippers if he was inclined, too. He was more about the overall offense, though, and not just getting his numbers. You go on about the Clippers being a top 5 all time offense and that has way more to do with basically having the best PG ever after Magic Johnson and not Blake Griffin.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#63 » by OkcSinceSGA » Wed Sep 4, 2019 10:58 pm

50CalClips wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:Blake was never the guy with the *will to win*, to put a team on his back. At his best, Blake was the "number 2" guy on a Championship Contending-caliber team.

He was a Top 10 player at one point or another, but he was never the "Number 1" guy on any elite team, never a killer.


Fool's Gold "Max" Players:
Blake Griffin
Carmelo Anthony
Jimmy Butler
Dwight Howard
...


This is false. He is a CAREER 22 ppg player who was a far more dependable go to player than CP3 pretty much every year. At his peak such as 13, 14 seasons and 15 playoffs.. he was a legit #1 guy in every sense of the word. Sounds more like newer fan who didn't watch younger Blake probably. Not to say he wasn't mentally weak or lacking in killer instinct at times, but to say he was "never the number 1 guy" is wrong. The Clippers had a top 5 all time offense, surprisingly up there with the juggernaut dynasty Warriors efficiency/lineup wise.. and Blake was the main horse for getting consistent offense.


Hindsight... Chris and Blake were both "Number 2" guys.

PLAYOFFS CAREER with Clippers:

Blake: +2 NetRating (109 Off / 107 Def)
Chris: +12 NetRating (120 Off / 108 Def)

Blake: 5.0 WinShare (.133 WS-per48)
Chris: 8.5 WinShare (.210 WS-per48)

P.S.
Watched the Clippers since Mark Jackson
Fan of the Clippers since Lamar Odom
You're not talking to a "newer fan"


Now you're moving the goal posts. CP3's overall impact on a team's offense is FAR greater, nobody was arguing otherwise. I'm referring purely to being the #1 scoring option on an elite team. Griffin was that guy far more than CP3 and was the main scoring linchpin of a couple of the best offensive seasons in NBA history.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#64 » by jbk1234 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:01 pm

He was injured too much to ever get there. But he could've been.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#65 » by OkcSinceSGA » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:07 pm

Soulcatcher33 wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:Blake was never the guy with the *will to win*, to put a team on his back. At his best, Blake was the "number 2" guy on a Championship Contending-caliber team.

He was a Top 10 player at one point or another, but he was never the "Number 1" guy on any elite team, never a killer.


Fool's Gold "Max" Players:
Blake Griffin
Carmelo Anthony
Jimmy Butler
Dwight Howard
...


This is false. He is a CAREER 22 ppg player who was a far more dependable go to player than CP3 pretty much every year


haha no. Blake ALWAYS disappeared in 4th quarters. There's a reason why CP3 had to take so much on down the stretch and that's because of Griffin's disappearing acts. Paul could have been putting up 20-22ppg every single year on great efficiency on the Clippers if he was inclined, too. He was more about the overall offense, though, and not just getting his numbers. You go on about the Clippers being a top 5 all time offense and that has way more to do with basically having the best PG ever after Magic Johnson and not Blake Griffin.


Good Lord people just can't objectively discuss the Clippers. CP3 was more important, but Blake's value to the team was every bit as important in specific seasons/series. As I mentioned prior Blake as valuable to the team arguably in 13 and 14. When CP3 went down in the year he went 3rd in MVP to prime Durant/Lebron. A lot of Blake's gifts such as running an offense as a Point Forward were suppressed by CP3's playstyle. How many back to the basket bigs are the primary closers on their team when they have an all timer PG who's known to get buckets in the clutch? It wasn't just "disappearing", it was that CP3's role was to close games because he was far better naturally as an ELITE iso guard at getting his in those moments. Blake has shown in Detroit when he's THE undisputed go to option that he can close games in the clutch.

CP3's offensive impact overall was greater, which again nobody was arguing. The whole thing I commented on had to do with being a "number 1" scorer. CP3 closed games, Blake carried us the first 3 quarters usually. Same thing happened with Elton Brand and Sam Cassell. Sam was our guy to get a clutch bucket a lot of times, but EB did most of the scoring damage all game. As for what CP3 COULD have done if "inclined" sounds like an excuse to me. The Clippers were at their peak when Paul was aggressive and scoring. Doc regularly yelled at him to shoot more. The problem with CP3 is he was constantly conserving himself and wasn't cut out to handle that workload obviously. That's to me what makes him a tier below his HOF/Superstar peers. He was prone to disappearing time and time again on the biggest stage/moments as well. He's called a choke for a reason. He has these inexplicable 1-9 shooting duds and won't attempt a shot until the 2nd half etc.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#66 » by 50CalClips » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:09 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
This is false. He is a CAREER 22 ppg player who was a far more dependable go to player than CP3 pretty much every year. At his peak such as 13, 14 seasons and 15 playoffs.. he was a legit #1 guy in every sense of the word. Sounds more like newer fan who didn't watch younger Blake probably. Not to say he wasn't mentally weak or lacking in killer instinct at times, but to say he was "never the number 1 guy" is wrong. The Clippers had a top 5 all time offense, surprisingly up there with the juggernaut dynasty Warriors efficiency/lineup wise.. and Blake was the main horse for getting consistent offense.


Hindsight... Chris and Blake were both "Number 2" guys.

PLAYOFFS CAREER with Clippers:

Blake: +2 NetRating (109 Off / 107 Def)
Chris: +12 NetRating (120 Off / 108 Def)

Blake: 5.0 WinShare (.133 WS-per48)
Chris: 8.5 WinShare (.210 WS-per48)

P.S.
Watched the Clippers since Mark Jackson
Fan of the Clippers since Lamar Odom
You're not talking to a "newer fan"


Now you're moving the goal posts. CP3's overall impact on a team's offense is FAR greater, nobody was arguing otherwise. I'm referring purely to being the #1 scoring option on an elite team. Griffin was that guy far more than CP3 and was the main scoring linchpin of a couple of the best offensive seasons in NBA history.


No, that's my entire premise. Blake may have been a "Top 10 Player" at one point, but he was NEVER a *Put the Team on Your Back/Will them to Win*(when it counts) type of Player.

Who made "scoring" the goal posts, anyway?
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#67 » by OkcSinceSGA » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:15 pm

50CalClips wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:
Hindsight... Chris and Blake were both "Number 2" guys.

PLAYOFFS CAREER with Clippers:

Blake: +2 NetRating (109 Off / 107 Def)
Chris: +12 NetRating (120 Off / 108 Def)

Blake: 5.0 WinShare (.133 WS-per48)
Chris: 8.5 WinShare (.210 WS-per48)

P.S.
Watched the Clippers since Mark Jackson
Fan of the Clippers since Lamar Odom
You're not talking to a "newer fan"


Now you're moving the goal posts. CP3's overall impact on a team's offense is FAR greater, nobody was arguing otherwise. I'm referring purely to being the #1 scoring option on an elite team. Griffin was that guy far more than CP3 and was the main scoring linchpin of a couple of the best offensive seasons in NBA history.


No, that's my entire premise. Blake may have been a "Top 10 Player" at one point, but he was NEVER a *Put the Team on Your Back/Will them to Win*(when it counts) type of Player.

Who made "scoring" the goal posts, anyway?


The person who posted that Blake wasn't a legit "number 1 option" made scoring the goal post. That's what I addressed specifically. Blake is a legit #1 in every sense of the word. You can be a legit go to guy for a contender and not be the most clutch guy on the team. These aren't mutually exclusive things. Blake was a 23 ppg guy over his 4 peak seasons in LA with an elite PNR/Post/Passing/Ballhandling skillset. He was unassisted on a large percentage of his buckets and was far better than contemporaries such as say Kevin Love at creating his own offense. He then developed a very good midrange and 3.

I would actually argue outside of Anthony Davis he's got an argument as the best scoring big of his era. He was WAY WAY WAY more efficient than Cousins. He's #1 offensive PF for me in the period between KG/Dirk/Duncan/Stoudemire primes and AD's emergence as a superstar in year 3 ish. Unfortunately his pairing with CP3 wasn't ideal (on paper we were expecting Malone/Stockton), his health was **** and mentally he never developed the right mindset.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#68 » by In SVG We Trust » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:17 pm

Joerezz7 wrote:Blake Griffin was always trash. Chris Paul made him look like an all star. All that athleticism and only averaging 7-8 rebounds a game, and it’s not like he was some dominate scorer either. He’s trash. I put him in the same category as Dwight Howard. Overrated bum

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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#69 » by 50CalClips » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:51 pm

ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:No, that's my entire premise. Blake may have been a "Top 10 Player" at one point, but he was NEVER a *Put the Team on Your Back/Will them to Win*(when it counts) type of Player.

Who made "scoring" the goal posts, anyway?


The person who posted that Blake wasn't a legit "number 1 option" made scoring the goal post. That's what I addressed specifically. Blake is a legit #1 in every sense of the word. You can be a legit go to guy for a contender and not be the most clutch guy on the team. These aren't mutually exclusive things. Blake was a 23 ppg guy over his 4 peak seasons in LA with an elite PNR/Post/Passing/Ballhandling skillset. He was unassisted on a large percentage of his buckets and was far better than contemporaries such as say Kevin Love at creating his own offense. He then developed a very good midrange and 3.

I would actually argue outside of Anthony Davis he's got an argument as the best scoring big of his era. He was WAY WAY WAY more efficient than Cousins. He's #1 offensive PF for me in the period between KG/Dirk/Duncan/Stoudemire primes and AD's emergence as a superstar in year 3 ish. Unfortunately his pairing with CP3 wasn't ideal (on paper we were expecting Malone/Stockton), his health was **** and mentally he never developed the right mindset.


There's a nuanced difference between being a team's "number 1 option"... and being a "a Number 1".

Between Blake and Chris... someone had to be the higher scoring option, but that doesn't mean that guy was "a Number 1"
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#70 » by OkcSinceSGA » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:55 pm

50CalClips wrote:
ClipsFanSince98 wrote:
50CalClips wrote:No, that's my entire premise. Blake may have been a "Top 10 Player" at one point, but he was NEVER a *Put the Team on Your Back/Will them to Win*(when it counts) type of Player.

Who made "scoring" the goal posts, anyway?


The person who posted that Blake wasn't a legit "number 1 option" made scoring the goal post. That's what I addressed specifically. Blake is a legit #1 in every sense of the word. You can be a legit go to guy for a contender and not be the most clutch guy on the team. These aren't mutually exclusive things. Blake was a 23 ppg guy over his 4 peak seasons in LA with an elite PNR/Post/Passing/Ballhandling skillset. He was unassisted on a large percentage of his buckets and was far better than contemporaries such as say Kevin Love at creating his own offense. He then developed a very good midrange and 3.

I would actually argue outside of Anthony Davis he's got an argument as the best scoring big of his era. He was WAY WAY WAY more efficient than Cousins. He's #1 offensive PF for me in the period between KG/Dirk/Duncan/Stoudemire primes and AD's emergence as a superstar in year 3 ish. Unfortunately his pairing with CP3 wasn't ideal (on paper we were expecting Malone/Stockton), his health was **** and mentally he never developed the right mindset.


There's a nuanced difference between being a team's "number 1 option"... and being a "a Number 1".

Between Blake and Chris... someone had to be the higher scoring option, but that doesn't mean that guy was "a Number 1"
In this case it does. Blake was the better scoring option and carried a much bigger scoring load. Also I'm not arguing relative to the team. Blake was an objectively worthy #1 on a contender. If the Warriors dynasty didn't rise combined with untimely injuries to Blake and CP3, the context would be totally different.

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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#71 » by MemphisX » Thu Sep 5, 2019 12:57 am

One of the most underrated players in the league...
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#72 » by Ballerhogger » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:13 am

His 12,13 were great so yes he was . He’s still very good
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#73 » by e83pw2oa9hl5f » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:18 am

In SVG We Trust wrote:
Joerezz7 wrote:Blake Griffin was always trash. Chris Paul made him look like an all star. All that athleticism and only averaging 7-8 rebounds a game, and it’s not like he was some dominate scorer either. He’s trash. I put him in the same category as Dwight Howard. Overrated bum

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I think just a troll. Every subject its the same. Trash bum no hope blah blah blah.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#74 » by Wammy Giveaway » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:31 am

Bayside wrote:
Forte IV wrote:Can we ban everyone who STILL calls him just a dunker? Seriously. If he's just a dunker to you in the year 2019 you don't belong on realgm. Blake has 100% been a top 10 player in the league before. He's a work horse and has changed his game so much over his career.


I second this ....

Same people come out calling players or teams trash, bums etc. and have outlandish trolling behavior.Thing is they might actually be serious, just a bit of a personality issue. But it takes away from the board in total when about 5 people go on like this. Take the time to make a reasonable statement.

No fan of that team that kept bumping the Warriors out, but they were skilled, and I give respect. Not trash, not bums, not one dimensional dunker.


Forte, you might want to put me in with the rest of the trolls who called Griffin just a dunker. It was the fact that his posters on Mozgov in his rookie year, followed by Perkins in the lockout season, had us expecting some sort of a showstopping number every game, in addition to winning. Keep in mind they were still being run by the evil Donald Sterling, and in his watch he wanted to be loved. How do you get that: by dunking on people, hard. Embarrass your opponents in such a way that, even if you lose, you'll still feel like a winner for emotionally scarring a defender's manhood. That kind of fame did go to Griffin's head, he sometimes forgot his original mission of proving to the world "the Clippers are not a joke," his words. But then the 3-1 collapse happened, and his buddy DeAndre Jordan joined the Mavericks. He got ejected twice in the 2015-16 season. Then, in a fit of anger, exposing Griffin as an evil person, he punched his ex-friend Matias Testi.

I felt that, as long as he was a Clipper, he would forever be known as a highlight reel machine. Sure, he was working on his mid-range game, 3-point shot, and becoming more of a facilitator, but those dunks and lob-jams were his identity. Take that away, he's just Antawn Jamison 2.0 without the Good Samaritan personality. It was only when Griffin was traded to the Pistons we finally noticed his evolved all-around game. No more dunks, no more posters, no more lob-jams, none of this Hollywood, Shawn Michaels showstopping number plays. The Pistons were such a horrid playoff team in the tank, the other parts of Griffin's game became more of a Darwinistic necessity. Griffin finally had some kind of responsibility other than catering to the crowd. He had to prove to the world he could help the team win games, and he did so to the risk of his own health.

Griffin was one of those players who you saw only for one thing when he was on the Clippers, but a completely different player when he was somewhere else. That's how I felt about him.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#75 » by flow » Thu Sep 5, 2019 6:50 pm

50CalClips wrote:Blake was never the guy with the *will to win*, to put a team on his back.
...


No one who saw him play at OU has stopped laughing at this yet.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#76 » by madmaxmedia » Thu Sep 5, 2019 7:16 pm

The argument for him would be easier IMO had they gotten out of the 2nd round one of those years. And certainly if his skills peak (right around now) had ever overlapped more with his physical peak (5-6 years ago), he would have been a consistent Top-10 player. But certainly its easy to argue he was Top-10 in 2013. FWIW, he was 6th in Win-Shares in 2013/4 (actually tied with CP3.)

Regardless, he's had a great career and has always been a hard worker. Its too bad his arms weren't a few inches longer- those short arms reduced his effective on-court size, at least in the half-court game.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#77 » by OkcSinceSGA » Thu Sep 5, 2019 8:18 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:The argument for him would be easier IMO had they gotten out of the 2nd round one of those years. And certainly if his skills peak (right around now) had ever overlapped more with his physical peak (5-6 years ago), he would have been a consistent Top-10 player. But certainly its easy to argue he was Top-10 in 2013. FWIW, he was 6th in Win-Shares in 2013/4 (actually tied with CP3.)

Regardless, he's had a great career and has always been a hard worker. Its too bad his arms weren't a few inches longer- those short arms reduced his effective on-court size, at least in the half-court game.


Blake was top 10 in 13, 14 for sure and a few other debatable years where you could argue either way. People are definitely underrating him now.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#78 » by Catchall » Thu Sep 5, 2019 8:22 pm

Yes, in 2013-15 he was arguably a top 8-10 player.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#79 » by GOATTatum » Thu Sep 5, 2019 8:30 pm

Early in his career (not including his injured year) he was one of top 3 most exciting players because of his dunks. Other than that I would say he's always been just out of the top 10.
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Re: Was Blake Griffin ever a top-10 player? 

Post#80 » by og15 » Thu Sep 5, 2019 10:53 pm

madmaxmedia wrote:The argument for him would be easier IMO had they gotten out of the 2nd round one of those years. And certainly if his skills peak (right around now) had ever overlapped more with his physical peak (5-6 years ago), he would have been a consistent Top-10 player. But certainly its easy to argue he was Top-10 in 2013. FWIW, he was 6th in Win-Shares in 2013/4 (actually tied with CP3.)

Regardless, he's had a great career and has always been a hard worker. Its too bad his arms weren't a few inches longer- those short arms reduced his effective on-court size, at least in the half-court game.
Longer arms would have really benefitted him, as well as less injury, but Blake with his current perimeter skills back in 2013 would also have been great. I remember debating with other Clippers fans how developing his face up game and his shot was much more important than "getting more post moves" because at his size and length, it just wasn't realistic for him to be a primarily back to the basket guy, especially when the playoffs rolled around. Definitely good for him that Doc and crew helped direct him in the face up direction early enough in his career.


I think what people are mixing up like I mentioned earlier is that currently there are more upper level star players than back in 12-13, 13-14 etc. Back then, you had some older guys slowing down and younger guys just coming in. So some people seem to be approaching this as "if Blake doesn't make my current top 10, then he was never a top 10 player". Good thing is that it does seem like most people acknowledge that he was for at least a year or two and the effect of injuries too.

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