How good was Giannis' MVP season?

[RRyder823]

To answer the OPs question a topic like this is just so subjective and is/will be tainted by the fact the Bucks didnt win a championship.

How do you rank one of the most efficient volume scoring seasons ever coupled with DPoY level defense when it ends in the conference finals when it's so easy in the NBA to conflate individual accolades with championships?

The main annoyance for me is when I see posters who would have their entire argument shift based on a couple of extra FTs going in. If the argument isn't strong enough to to withstand that kind of variance it isnt a argument that should be used

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[Adam Stern]

The only narrative here is the bogus "he was exposed" bull you're pushing. You don't live in reality.

Don't get emotional and please don't make it personal.
It is what it is. Everyone who watched the series saw what happened.

By the way, you can cheer for your guy and still be honest about his limitations.
Denying the obvious just makes you look lost.

I'm not being personal, read the rest of my post above which I'd edited. I just don't think you watched the series. It's you who's very much lost, because when Giannis continues to dominate in 2019-2020 as he did in 2018-2019, that whole "exposed" thing doesn't amount to much.

Clearly there's a failure in communication. You keep talking about what you hope will happen while I'm strictly talking about what is.

The fact that you resorted to whataboutism says a lot. You know Giannis' game has legitimate flaws and they were on display the moment he faced a really good playoff team.

By the way I can't believe you actually mentioned beating Detroit (without Blake Griffin) as an accomplishment

Sorry you seem to be taking my words as a diss to your guy. It's not, I'm just a realist.

[skones]

Don't get emotional and please don't make it personal.
It is what it is. Everyone who watched the series saw what happened.

By the way, you can cheer for your guy and still be honest about his limitations.
Denying the obvious just makes you look lost.

I'm not being personal, read the rest of my post above which I'd edited. I just don't think you watched the series. It's you who's very much lost, because when Giannis continues to dominate in 2019-2020 as he did in 2018-2019, that whole "exposed" thing doesn't amount to much.

Clearly there's a failure in communication. You keep talking about what you hope will happen while I'm strictly talking about what is.

The fact that you resorted to whataboutism says a lot. You know Giannis' game has legitimate flaws and they were on display the moment he faced a really good playoff team.

By the way I can't believe you actually mentioned beating Detroit (without Blake Griffin) as an accomplishment

Sorry you seem to be taking my words as a diss to your guy. It's not, I'm just a realist.

I don't think you get to dismiss someone's argument as "narrative and hype," and then boil down someone's disagreement as "taking it personally" when winning an MVP award (and breaking initial shoe release records) generally qualifies you as "the current big thing," not the next. I mean, the knock on Giannis goes from "He's never made it out of the first round!" to "He's only done it once!" That's ridiculous, and it's spun narrative. If it looks like a reach, smells like a reach, it probably is a reach.

I didn't talk about what I hope will happen. I, quite literally, told you exactly what happened which you either neglected to read, or just ignored. Either way, that's on you, as is your assertion that he was "exposed in the playoffs" and there being 9 games IN THE PLAYOFFS (which is what I was pointing out and clearly went over your head) where he dominated just as he had during the regular season. It wasn't until they met a true defensive juggernaut in Toronto that he had problems, the same one that held an all time great offensive player in Steph Curry to 40.8% shooting from the field and 33.8% from distance.

But again, none of this matters because you're going to continue to push a narrative without merit. A realist, as you so claim, wouldn't have the entire crux of an argument rest on 6 games, 4 of which came down to the margins and could have swung either way based on a lucky bounce or two. I don't know why you feel you have to state that "GA's game has legitimate flaws" as if someone is denying that. Every single player has "legitimate flaws," and gasp, they tend to be on display when players face really good teams.

Live look at you being a "realist":

[Vladimir777]

There are 6 people that thought Giannis had the best season of all time last season? 6?!

Better than anything Michael Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Larry Bird, Hakeem, Duncan, Bill Russell, Magic, LeBron, or Kareem ever accomplished?

Damn....

[scrabbarista]

The more stats you add to your parameters, the fewer players you'll end up with. It's not surprising that the PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP of an MVP have been matched only ten times in NBA history (going back to 1974, anyway, when some of those numbers first show up).

Heck, using a PER of 30, WS/48 of .250, BPM of 11 and a VORP of 9.9, all thresholds that James Harden hit last season, we get these results:

Jordan in 1988 and 1989
LeBron in 2009, 2010, and 2013
Curry in 2016

and Harden in 2019.

That's 7 seasons. Apparently even more special than Giannis' 10. And that's just for stats that were hand-picked to favor Giannis.

I didn't really intend to make this about Giannis/Harden, though, because I'm fine with Giannis winning last season.

More to the point that I actually want to make, stats get used all the time by people who just want to confirm their bias. For example, I could pick another stat, maybe something really obscure that no one's every heard of, something really outside of the mainstream, something without any credibility or general acceptance among basketball fans, something like, say, win shares, and I could use it to make Giannis look really bad. His 2019 rank all-time? 149th. His 2019 was not among the 30 best seasons. It was great. MVP-worthy. I don't know where, exactly, it falls, but it's definitely not top 30.

[theFireBlanket]

The more stats you add to your parameters, the fewer players you'll end up with. It's not surprising that the PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP of an MVP have been matched only ten times in NBA history (going back to 1974, anyway, when some of those numbers first show up).

Heck, using a PER of 30, WS/48 of .250, BPM of 11 and a VORP of 9.9, all thresholds that James Harden hit last season, we get these results:

Jordan in 1988 and 1989
LeBron in 2009, 2010, and 2013
Curry in 2016

and Harden in 2019.

That's 7 seasons. Apparently even more special than Giannis' 10. And that's just for stats that were hand-picked to favor Giannis.

I didn't really intend to make this about Giannis/Harden, though, because I'm fine with Giannis winning last season.

More to the point that I actually want to make, stats get used all the time by people who just want to confirm their bias. For example, I could pick another stat, maybe something really obscure that no one's every heard of, something really outside of the mainstream, something without any credibility or general acceptance among basketball fans, something like, say, win shares, and I could use it to make Giannis look really bad. His 2019 rank all-time? 149th. His 2019 was not among the 30 best seasons. It was great. MVP-worthy. I don't know where, exactly, it falls, but it's definitely not top 30.

Yet his WS/48 was ahead of Harden's. Given that's a stat you used to prop up Harden, while cherry picking VORP & BPM. Giannis played 32 mpg, Harden 36.

Giannis is the only player to set a PER over 30, while playing less than 33 mpg, besides a small sample size from David Robinson, of something like 6 games.

He's going to be the MVP again & the dominance will only expand this season.

[NO-KG-AI]

It was an amazing season. He’s come so far as a player, and I’m happy to eat crow because he far exceeded my expectations of his scoring ability,

I think he’s not a lock top 2 player though, and it wasn’t a lock all season, and there have been too many seasons in NBA history where there is a clear dominant number 1 guy to really rank it TOO high.


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[XxIronChainzxX]

It was an amazing season. He’s come so far as a player, and I’m happy to eat crow because he far exceeded my expectations of his scoring ability,

I think he’s not a lock top 2 player though, and it wasn’t a lock all season, and there have been too many seasons in NBA history where there is a clear dominant number 1 guy to really rank it TOO high.


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With LeBron declining to human levels, were getting close to that post-Jordan era. Though maybe a more accurate comparison is the era when Wilt was old and (based on people's views of Zion) Kareem came into the league.

[dhsilv2]

The more stats you add to your parameters, the fewer players you'll end up with. It's not surprising that the PER, WS/48, BPM, and VORP of an MVP have been matched only ten times in NBA history (going back to 1974, anyway, when some of those numbers first show up).

Heck, using a PER of 30, WS/48 of .250, BPM of 11 and a VORP of 9.9, all thresholds that James Harden hit last season, we get these results:

Jordan in 1988 and 1989
LeBron in 2009, 2010, and 2013
Curry in 2016

and Harden in 2019.

That's 7 seasons. Apparently even more special than Giannis' 10. And that's just for stats that were hand-picked to favor Giannis.

I didn't really intend to make this about Giannis/Harden, though, because I'm fine with Giannis winning last season.

More to the point that I actually want to make, stats get used all the time by people who just want to confirm their bias. For example, I could pick another stat, maybe something really obscure that no one's every heard of, something really outside of the mainstream, something without any credibility or general acceptance among basketball fans, something like, say, win shares, and I could use it to make Giannis look really bad. His 2019 rank all-time? 149th. His 2019 was not among the 30 best seasons. It was great. MVP-worthy. I don't know where, exactly, it falls, but it's definitely not top 30.

Yet his WS/48 was ahead of Harden's. Given that's a stat you used to prop up Harden, while cherry picking VORP & BPM. Giannis played 32 mpg, Harden 36.

Giannis is the only player to set a PER over 30, while playing less than 33 mpg, besides a small sample size from David Robinson, of something like 6 games.

He's going to be the MVP again & the dominance will only expand this season.

scrabbarista is a great poster and I think he's lost his mind if last year wasn't a top 30 MVP season (I think I said earlier it's a top 20 so I guess I might be splitting hairs to call him crazy but I'll stand by it). That said what in the hell does playing 32 minutes have to do with anything? That would be a counter against Gianis as it's easier in theory to play at a higher level in less minutes as you should be less tired. It also is just the result of the current nba world where players get more rest.

[scrabbarista]

scrabbarista is a great poster and I think he's lost his mind if last year wasn't a top 30 MVP season (I think I said earlier it's a top 20 so I guess I might be splitting hairs to call him crazy but I'll stand by it). That said what in the hell does playing 32 minutes have to do with anything? That would be a counter against Gianis as it's easier in theory to play at a higher level in less minutes as you should be less tired. It also is just the result of the current nba world where players get more rest.

You could've picked out more inconsistencies in that response than just that. Sometimes a post is such a mess that I don't even respond.

In the case of your post, too, I can't really engage with you earnestly if I'm defending a position you see as insane. So I'm not going to get deep into Giannis' season. And to be honest, as you probably remember, I had more than enough of that during the MVP debate as the season was ongoing. I'll just go ahead and remind you, again, that his 2019 rank in win shares is 149th. Not exactly a great way to start a case for top 20. But Imma chill.

[dhsilv2]

scrabbarista is a great poster and I think he's lost his mind if last year wasn't a top 30 MVP season (I think I said earlier it's a top 20 so I guess I might be splitting hairs to call him crazy but I'll stand by it). That said what in the hell does playing 32 minutes have to do with anything? That would be a counter against Gianis as it's easier in theory to play at a higher level in less minutes as you should be less tired. It also is just the result of the current nba world where players get more rest.

You could've picked out more inconsistencies in that response than just that. Sometimes a post is such a mess that I don't even respond.

In the case of your post, too, I can't really engage with you earnestly if I'm defending a position you see as insane. So I'm not going to get deep into Giannis' season. And to be honest, as you probably remember, I had more than enough of that during the MVP debate as the season was ongoing. I'll just go ahead and remind you, again, that his 2019 rank in win shares is 149th. Not exactly a great way to start a case for top 20. But Imma chill.

There's bad arguments and then there's making a case for the other person. The 32 minute thing is bizzaro world.

As for WS, it's a nice metric. I wouldn't put that much weight on it myself. That said he was 17th all time in WS/48...can't really think of a reason to use WS over WS/48 to compare historically given minute loads today. So yes by winshare Giannis is only the 17th best season.

Sorry 16t in nba history, 17th with ABA.

[BallerTalk]

scrabbarista is a great poster and I think he's lost his mind if last year wasn't a top 30 MVP season (I think I said earlier it's a top 20 so I guess I might be splitting hairs to call him crazy but I'll stand by it). That said what in the hell does playing 32 minutes have to do with anything? That would be a counter against Gianis as it's easier in theory to play at a higher level in less minutes as you should be less tired. It also is just the result of the current nba world where players get more rest.

You could've picked out more inconsistencies in that response than just that. Sometimes a post is such a mess that I don't even respond.

In the case of your post, too, I can't really engage with you earnestly if I'm defending a position you see as insane. So I'm not going to get deep into Giannis' season. And to be honest, as you probably remember, I had more than enough of that during the MVP debate as the season was ongoing. I'll just go ahead and remind you, again, that his 2019 rank in win shares is 149th. Not exactly a great way to start a case for top 20. But Imma chill.

There's bad arguments and then there's making a case for the other person. The 32 minute thing is bizzaro world.

As for WS, it's a nice metric. I wouldn't put that much weight on it myself. That said he was 17th all time in WS/48...can't really think of a reason to use WS over WS/48 to compare historically given minute loads today. So yes by winshare Giannis is only the 17th best season.

Sorry 16t in nba history, 17th with ABA.

Seems like you're being a bit disingenuous here.
One number (WS) represents what actually happened in games while the other (WS per 48) is a numerical construct.

[Ballerhogger]

I think he had typical mvp season it doesn’t stand out to me like others but it good top 50

[dhsilv2]

You could've picked out more inconsistencies in that response than just that. Sometimes a post is such a mess that I don't even respond.

In the case of your post, too, I can't really engage with you earnestly if I'm defending a position you see as insane. So I'm not going to get deep into Giannis' season. And to be honest, as you probably remember, I had more than enough of that during the MVP debate as the season was ongoing. I'll just go ahead and remind you, again, that his 2019 rank in win shares is 149th. Not exactly a great way to start a case for top 20. But Imma chill.

There's bad arguments and then there's making a case for the other person. The 32 minute thing is bizzaro world.

As for WS, it's a nice metric. I wouldn't put that much weight on it myself. That said he was 17th all time in WS/48...can't really think of a reason to use WS over WS/48 to compare historically given minute loads today. So yes by winshare Giannis is only the 17th best season.

Sorry 16t in nba history, 17th with ABA.

Seems like you're being a bit disingenuous here.
One number (WS) represents what actually happened in games while the other (WS per 48) is a numerical construct.

Both would be what happened AND numerical constructs.

It is dishonest to try and compare Giannis in 2019's minutes to Wilt's in the 60's. Wilt had 12 such seasons where he had a greater WS than Giannis last year. But wilt in all those years never had a season where he played less than roughly 10% more minutes than the top minute player in 2019, Beal (who actually was an outlier in his minutes). If we remove Beal as he was an outlier we come to Harden who was 2nd in minutes. Wilt's worst year in terms of minutes in these higher WS seasons was still over 15% more minutes than harden played. In his top seasons in terms of minutes he played 35% more.

Now more minutes is better without a doubt, but the goal is to get the best record. So while we could be critical of minutes it doesn't make sense to do so when a team only need 58 wins (got 60) to lock in the best record in the nba.

Now keep in mind WS is the MOST linear of all metrics. It doesn't understand that Derk Fisher could be replaced by someone nearly as good and the lakers would have barely suffered. It gives him credit for being the guy on the floor. At the same time it doesn't get that the bucks didn't need giannis because his team was already up so big guys could play badly and hold on to leads.

[Vladimir777]

There are 6 people that thought Giannis had the best season of all time last season? 6?!

Better than anything Michael Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Larry Bird, Hakeem, Duncan, Bill Russell, Magic, LeBron, or Kareem ever accomplished?

Damn....

None of the people who voted Giannis as having the GOAT RS going to comment on this? There was a significant number of you.

I’m guessing the argument would be combination of offense and defense, which is a fair argument. The Hakeem season where he won DPoY AND MVP would be a good counter-argument to that. I’m not an expert, but I feel like the gap between Hakeem and Giannis’s defensive abilities (in favor of Hakeem) is greater than any amount you might say Giannis is better than Hakeem at offensively.

Wilt at his peak was also a phenomenal two-way player, or LeBron. Or Duncan, for that matter.

[truly]

Aaah Harden fans using stats that favor Harden in a comparison with Giannis.Didn't we do this last season already?Your guy lost,get over it already.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Nah, skip the narrative and the hype. This isn't ESPN.
He's a really good you player who had a strong season. He edged out the MVP award because of his team's record.
He also a player who has only been out of the first round once. He has notable holes in his game that were clearly exposed in the playoffs.

That's what he IS.

The only narrative here is the bogus "he was exposed" bull you're pushing. You don't live in reality.

Don't get emotional and please don't make it personal.
It is what it is. Everyone who watched the series saw what happened.

By the way, you can cheer for your guy and still be honest about his limitations.
Denying the obvious just makes you look lost.

I watched the series. Fred can fleet is the best player in the history of the league and clearly if he had never been born then Gianni's would be perceived as a closer instead of the bum we all know he is from watching that series

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[dhsilv2]

There are 6 people that thought Giannis had the best season of all time last season? 6?!

Better than anything Michael Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Larry Bird, Hakeem, Duncan, Bill Russell, Magic, LeBron, or Kareem ever accomplished?

Damn....

None of the people who voted Giannis as having the GOAT RS going to comment on this? There was a significant number of you.

I’m guessing the argument would be combination of offense and defense, which is a fair argument. The Hakeem season where he won DPoY AND MVP would be a good counter-argument to that. I’m not an expert, but I feel like the gap between Hakeem and Giannis’s defensive abilities (in favor of Hakeem) is greater than any amount you might say Giannis is better than Hakeem at offensively.

Wilt at his peak was also a phenomenal two-way player, or LeBron. Or Duncan, for that matter.

Just on regular season, yeah i'll take Giannis over wilt and hakeem if you want that (wilt has like 1 season I'd have to debate on), but I don't think this was even close to the best MVP season of all time. Top 10 is in play but pushing it. Similarly, I'm not sure Giannis wouldn't be ahead of magic and bird either. It was better than Duncan's two MVPs. Odd you left of lebron though..

[Tracymcgoaty]

Doesn't beat the season Lin had with the knicks. #RespectasiansintheNBA #Notafluke #Linsanity #Meloisabich #Amareisaight

[melo4three]

Missing 10 games is a huge knock on his season to be honest and probably the main reason it shouldn't be in the top 20, I still have it top 30ish.